Nikon CLS should be updated: from infrared to radio signal.

Aside from small volume production runs (which I don't think is a valid argument here), is there any reason Nikon (or Canon) couldn't offer their flashes with RF, IR, and RF+IR as three versions of each model?
Yup. Two reasons.
  1. The distributors and dealers wouldn't touch it. You're talking about either three flashes (bulky and expensive) that they'd have to keep in inventory, or one flash and three different modules. You've replaced one inventory item with three or four.
I disagree. Dealers find a way to sell all sorts of crap we don't want or need. They would be more than happy to sell us crap that we actually need...(Assuming demand for RF based CLS is real and not just a dpreview phenomenon).

How many different kit lenses were offered from Nikon with the D7000? Did dealers boycott the product because of the options?
  1. If they allocated this "working space" you talk about, it would increase the size of the flash by the size of the worst case combination of RF and IR, plus two sets of walls (a compartment inside the flash and a box for the module).
That is one possible path that a design team could take, but a designated space could include the option of externalizing. Also, if I were designing it I wouldn't necessarily make the module removable or give it its own 'walls'. Don't limit your imagination. The flash body could be designed to internalize the smallest component bundle, and externalize the rest (think about the battery bump on the SB800).

That being said, the idea that there would be any appreciable difference in size between an RF & IR CLS module and the current system is only hypothetical. The design team may be able to fit RF & IR into a space smaller than what is currently allocated in the SB600/700/900. So this was a hypothetical problem, and even when assumed to be true it is still not a very convincing one.
  1. Now you've put someone who could be going into areas were they're not allowed radio links in the awkward position of having to have two sets of flashes, one with RF, one without.
When has selling someone more products to accomplish a diverse set of goals ever been a problem? We are already in the awkward situation of having to buy a second set of transmitters to get RF. I would venture a guess that the population of photographers who would like RF in their flash body is significantly bigger than the population of photographers who would be troubled by international RF laws. That's just a guess, but I think it's very likely to be true. Professional photojournalists who NEED to bring flash equipment across borders and are likely to encounter these problems are also the photographers least likely to be unable to purchase additional gear to meet their needs.
If the engineering team defined a working space for a CLS communication module then they could modularize the RF, IR, and RF + IR options.

SB1200 IR
SB1200 RF
SB1200 RF+IR

International compatibility problems alleviated.
Or they could always build in the IR unit, exactly as they do now. It's not expensive. The flash itself is the "transmitter", and the receiver is nothing more than a photodiode behind an IR window and some op-amps. That gives them backwards compatibility with 12 existing cameras that can flash out iTTL master signals (D300, D700, D70, D80, D90, D200, D40, D60, D3000, D3100, D5000, and D7000) plus however many more can do this by the timeframe of SB1200 plus the existing CLS IR controlled SU-800, plus the CLS master flashes like SB-800, SB-900, SB-1000, and SB-1100.

And then they just add a socket on the flash so that you can plug in an RF module, just like the Paul Buff CSXCV RF remote that plugs into the Einstein flash.



That's so simple, it could show up by SB-1000, no waiting 15 more years for SB-1200.
Although I didn't agree with the arguments you made above, I believe that this is a very good idea. Only the internal CLS processor would need to be modified and a socket added. It would be a compromise between internal RF and the current PW-style systems. I like it.

--

A warming of several degrees, Melted ice and raised oceans and seas. The Army was finished, the Air Force diminished, but the Navy was quietly pleased.
 
There would be no reason to have a transmitter built into the flash. A transmitter in camera might be a better idea with only receive capability in the flash.

For the majority of cases, wouldn't a stronger IR transmitter projected over a wider area combined with a more sensitive receiver be a better solution?

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
There would be no reason to have a transmitter built into the flash. A transmitter in camera might be a better idea with only receive capability in the flash.
Transmitter in camera only would not be backwards-compatible with all of the cameras already sold. This would restrict the consumer base too much and result in too few sales IMO.
For the majority of cases, wouldn't a stronger IR transmitter projected over a wider area combined with a more sensitive receiver be a better solution?
An IR system requires line-of-sight, which limits creativity. Also, increased sensitivity of receivers would lead to increased interference from natural sources of IR. A stronger transmitter would increase usable range but not to the distances already achievable with RF.

I do not think that IR can be 'upgraded' to match the flexibility of RF.
--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
--

A warming of several degrees, Melted ice and raised oceans and seas. The Army was finished, the Air Force diminished, but the Navy was quietly pleased.
 
Transmitter in camera only would not be backwards-compatible with all of the cameras already sold. This would restrict the consumer base too much and result in too few sales IMO.
For a company selling cameras - that should be pretty atractive. You don't get a 24 million pixel sensor in a D3s, people who want that buy a D3x. Same with radio. It could be made available.
An IR system requires line-of-sight, which limits creativity. Also, increased sensitivity of receivers would lead to increased interference from natural sources of IR. A stronger transmitter would increase usable range but not to the distances already achievable with RF.

I do not think that IR can be 'upgraded' to match the flexibility of RF.
I don't think IR will be a match for radio, but to improve on an existing IR system would be easier and more obtainable than getting a new radio system.

It's a falicy that you need line of sight. The CLS does work around corners and with reflected IR, it's just reliant on there being enough of a reflection to contain the signal. Using SU-4 mode and setting your remote to use the sensor as a PEC works rather well. The difference is only the strength of the signal.

Maybe (?) An improvement might be that if setting your commander to 'off' then the full capacitor charge might be used for signalling purposes. I don't know whether this is currently used or whether a seperate capacitor is used. Maybe a stronger signal might not be accurate... two flashtubes then.

Hmm, two flashtubes, bigger capacitors, better CLS, more power.. that sounds more feasable than waiting for radio.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
I'm reminded that PW have already previously made an integrated radio transmitter for Nikon. It was for the D1x.

Here's a link:
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-4858-4863
Yes, I remember that little gadget.

It died after the D1, D1H, D1X version. The $300 is one reason that people would pass on it. I'm not sure how much people would be willing to pay for an integrated radio, but I'm sure Nikon knows.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
With professional photography, it's not really about the price but more about the convenience. $300 is not that much. I had a D1 and a D1x, but at that time I was quite happy using Wein IR triggers. I still am pretty much. If I was into PW's already then, the integrated approach would be really convenient, and one less connection to go wrong.

To get a simple radio trigger to work with other existing radio receivers is not to much of a wild call. To get existing flash equipment changed to radio before adding a radio to camera would be beyond reasonable expectation.

As an indication of investment involved in radio triggers, I've recently been revising my use and needs. I counted the radio devices I use at 17, excluding IR and Weins, which would probably number greater. At a guess, there's around $3500 worth.. pretty shocking really - but thats what happens when you get commited to an integrated system and making things work. It would take a major development in Nikon radio equipment to get me to change, but until Nikon listen to people who use their stuff and understand how they use it they will still only be providing stop gap solutions for mass market amateur consumption. Can't blame them really, that's where the money is for them.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
With professional photography, it's not really about the price but more about the convenience.
Agreed.
$300 is not that much.
Definitely. But it's $300 plus having the thing installed, plus the Nikon warranty issue. If your camera dies with the PW in it, you send it back to the MAC group, to have the radio removed, then when you get it back, you send it back to Nikon.

NPS may cover you with a loaner while Nikon does their thing, but the MAC group?
I had a D1 and a D1x, but at that time I was quite happy using Wein IR triggers. I still am pretty much. If I was into PW's already then, the integrated approach would be really convenient, and one less connection to go wrong.
True. But I'd only consider it acceptable if the convenience came with OEM warranty and reliability.

What I regard as "convenient" is having remote control of all my lighting power, and I'll put up with an external box to get that.
To get a simple radio trigger to work with other existing radio receivers is not to much of a wild call. To get existing flash equipment changed to radio before adding a radio to camera would be beyond reasonable expectation.
Yup.
As an indication of investment involved in radio triggers, I've recently been revising my use and needs. I counted the radio devices I use at 17, excluding IR and Weins, which would probably number greater. At a guess, there's around $3500 worth.. pretty shocking really - but thats what happens when you get commited to an integrated system and making things work.
Definitely. My radio collection is nowhere near that, but it's getting close to $1000. 1 Cybercommander, 4 CSR+, 1 CST, 2 CSRB+, and an RF-602 (because it's a dang nice remote shutter button).

Like I said earlier, remote control of all my lighting power is worth a lot to me. That means, since I use White Lightnings, I've got a choice of CyberSync or Radio Poppers.
It would take a major development in Nikon radio equipment to get me to change, but until Nikon listen to people who use their stuff and understand how they use it they will still only be providing stop gap solutions for mass market amateur consumption.
Yup.
Can't blame them really, that's where the money is for them.
Exactly. Look at where the money is, and you can anticipate a lot of product development strategy.

It's a pity, I'm picturing Cyber Commander menus on the LCD of a D4, but it will never happen.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
so I'm all for Nikon cutting the "middleman", so to speak. Maybe take a modular approach to RF-CLS so those who don't need it woudn't have to pay more for a plain vanilla flash model. Perhaps use WIFI for the RF part.
--
Alberto T.
 
no PW Flex/Mini for Nikon
Have you given up because of the delay in releasing it? Or did you hear that they've canceled the product?

I've heard rumors of that, but nothing solid. That their ControlTL protocol, power levels, and data rates weren't proving up to the task.
so I'm all for Nikon cutting the "middleman", so to speak. Maybe take a modular approach to RF-CLS so those who don't need it woudn't have to pay more for a plain vanilla flash model.
Agreed. I think the modular approach makes the most sense.
Perhaps use WIFI for the RF part.
If they're going to use off-the-shelf chipsets and protocols, I'd think they'd go for Bluetooth. It's lower traffic (better for battery life) and lower latency (better for controlling flashes).

But I think cost and latency together are the reason that all the 2.4GHz players (CyberSync, RadioPopper, Skyport, Pixel, Yongnuo) rolled their own.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Beyond controlling speedlights, what really will/should a Nikon system be capable of doing?

Will it sync studio flash on the fire signal rather than the pre-flash signal. Will they build a seperate radio remote capable of this? Will a remote capable of controlling non-OEM equipment be incorporated... and what equipment?

The measure of the problem is pretty immense, and there's companies already providing these solutions. Unless the answers are provided for the above questions.. really.. I can't see the point in Nikon bothering.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
Turning TTL off would also turn pre-flashes off. And even with TTL on, adding the option to sync to the shutter instead of the pre-flash won't be any problem. As for third-party equipment, if they decide to support it then the only thing needed is for them to sell a receiver that has a sync-port. That would support almost every studio flash.
Beyond controlling speedlights, what really will/should a Nikon system be capable of doing?

Will it sync studio flash on the fire signal rather than the pre-flash signal. Will they build a seperate radio remote capable of this? Will a remote capable of controlling non-OEM equipment be incorporated... and what equipment?

The measure of the problem is pretty immense, and there's companies already providing these solutions. Unless the answers are provided for the above questions.. really.. I can't see the point in Nikon bothering.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
Turning TTL off would also turn pre-flashes off.
And limit you to having to walk over to each flash, Nikon speedlight or studio strobe, if you want to change power.
And even with TTL on, adding the option to sync to the shutter instead of the pre-flash won't be any problem. As for third-party equipment, if they decide to support it then the only thing needed is for them to sell a receiver that has a sync-port. That would support almost every studio flash.
When the remote system I already have gives me control of the power of each of my studio flashes, I don't consider your definition as "support", but a giant step backwards.

RadioPopper PX can remote all of Nikon or Canon TTL, plus provide remote power control of studio lights.

PocketWizard has their AC9 and PowerST4 to give their FlexTT5 remote the ability to control power on Paul Buff and Elinchrom (respectively) studio strobes, in addition to remote Canon TTL (Nikon iTTL support is due in December).

That's where the bar is.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Jon,
Thanks for the link. This is just an additional proof.
No, it's not "proof". It's a patent application, one of many Nikon and Canon patent applications for radio flash and remote camera triggers going back over 15 years.

You could just as easily say it's "proof" that Canon has no plans to make such a system and is therefore moving to make it more difficult for their competitors to build such a system.

That is actually common practice.
The only question is who is going to be first: Canon or Nikon.
Well, since the odds are the neither will ever do this, "who is going to be first" isn't even a valid question, let alone "the only question".

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Joseph,
Thank you for the correction.
You're very welcome.
YES, $309-$279 = $30 (multitasking did not work for me today...) :(
If you want an interesting observation on the incredible lack of value of Sekonic and PocketWizard...

I have a Paul Buff "Cyber Commander" remote control. It cost $179, and it contains literally everything that Sekonic meter and PW tramsmitter $309 combo do, and then some. Flash and ambient meter, better display, and more sophisticated remote control capability. So, while your earlier observation about everything photographic being high profit margin isn't true, it is true that some things, such as PW and Sekonic, are very high margin, indeed.
Everything what I wanted to know: Do you want it or not?
No. I've explained my reasoning why elsewhere, but I'll recap.
  • My current Paul Buff "Cyber Sync" system permits control of the power levels of all my studio lights. This is very important to me, more important than TTL.
  • If TTL were as important as integration with my studio lights, the RadioPopper PX has been shipping for over a year, and will work with all my existing flashes, instead of requiring me to replace them all when the hypothetical system comes out.
  • Built in radios are lower performance than external ones.
  • External radios can be removed in areas where radio is not permitted.
There were almost same reactions like now when I had posted the question about articulated screens in DSLRs.
Then consider that there's little use, beyond your own entertainment, in attempting to do "market research" on random products in these forums.
No, I am not Nostradamus, but the Nikon D5000 was the answer.
True. But that had nothing, whatsoever, to do with you. There have been literally hundreds of articulated screen threads.
I believe D9000 will have the screen also (not LCD but ELD).
You mean OLED. ELD is electroluminescent, a technological dead end.
Same with HD video in DSLRs. Same with DX format vs FX.
You didn't cause any of that. That was all just progress.
I believe, the sooner the radio based CLS is implemented by Nikon, the sooner it will become affordable.
I believe that you are wrong. I have presented reasoning to support this, and you have not.
I guess, Nikon screening this type of forums...
I would say "I guess you are wrong", but that is incorrect. I know you are wrong. Large companies forbid anyone involved in engineering, product planning, or product management from reading "this type of forums", in order to be able to maintain that they actually invented the things that they file patents on, instead of having "stolen" ideas from the "inventors" who post in forums.
Only Time Will Tell, if I am wrong...
True. However, one can estimate probabilities right now, and it is a near certainty that you are wrong.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Joseph,
Why are you so aggressive in your responses?
Joseph,
Thank you for the correction.
You're very welcome.
YES, $309-$279 = $30 (multitasking did not work for me today...) :(
If you want an interesting observation on the incredible lack of value of Sekonic and PocketWizard...

I have a Paul Buff "Cyber Commander" remote control. It cost $179, and it contains literally everything that Sekonic meter and PW tramsmitter $309 combo do, and then some. Flash and ambient meter, better display, and more sophisticated remote control capability. So, while your earlier observation about everything photographic being high profit margin isn't true, it is true that some things, such as PW and Sekonic, are very high margin, indeed.
Everything what I wanted to know: Do you want it or not?
No. I've explained my reasoning why elsewhere, but I'll recap.
  • My current Paul Buff "Cyber Sync" system permits control of the power levels of all my studio lights. This is very important to me, more important than TTL.
  • If TTL were as important as integration with my studio lights, the RadioPopper PX has been shipping for over a year, and will work with all my existing flashes, instead of requiring me to replace them all when the hypothetical system comes out.
  • Built in radios are lower performance than external ones.
  • External radios can be removed in areas where radio is not permitted.
There were almost same reactions like now when I had posted the question about articulated screens in DSLRs.
Then consider that there's little use, beyond your own entertainment, in attempting to do "market research" on random products in these forums.
No, I am not Nostradamus, but the Nikon D5000 was the answer.
True. But that had nothing, whatsoever, to do with you. There have been literally hundreds of articulated screen threads.
I believe D9000 will have the screen also (not LCD but ELD).
You mean OLED. ELD is electroluminescent, a technological dead end.
Same with HD video in DSLRs. Same with DX format vs FX.
You didn't cause any of that. That was all just progress.
I believe, the sooner the radio based CLS is implemented by Nikon, the sooner it will become affordable.
I believe that you are wrong. I have presented reasoning to support this, and you have not.
I guess, Nikon screening this type of forums...
I would say "I guess you are wrong", but that is incorrect. I know you are wrong. Large companies forbid anyone involved in engineering, product planning, or product management from reading "this type of forums", in order to be able to maintain that they actually invented the things that they file patents on, instead of having "stolen" ideas from the "inventors" who post in forums.
Only Time Will Tell, if I am wrong...
True. However, one can estimate probabilities right now, and it is a near certainty that you are wrong.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
I've given up, and also can't justify the expense right now. These days I'm concentrating more on working with a new fast lens and custom led lights I built to shoot in low light. RF TTL will have to be put on hold for a long while.

--
Alberto T.
 
Did you miss the part where we were discussing about supporting flashes that doesn't support i-TTL? Thus, if they don't support TTL, then yes, you have to walk to them. Exactly like with any other trigger, it doesn't matter if you're using TTL enabled triggers if your gear doesn't support triggers. With flashes that do support TTL and remote control you'd control them from your camera, exactly like when using TTL cords.

There are of course triggers like the PCB Cybercommander, but as far as I know they only control the power of PCB flashes. Are there any triggers that allows you to control studio flashes not of the same brand?

I'm getting the feeling you've decided against the idea, and will stick to your point no matter what.
Turning TTL off would also turn pre-flashes off.
And limit you to having to walk over to each flash, Nikon speedlight or studio strobe, if you want to change power.

When the remote system I already have gives me control of the power of each of my studio flashes, I don't consider your definition as "support", but a giant step backwards.

RadioPopper PX can remote all of Nikon or Canon TTL, plus provide remote power control of studio lights.

PocketWizard has their AC9 and PowerST4 to give their FlexTT5 remote the ability to control power on Paul Buff and Elinchrom (respectively) studio strobes, in addition to remote Canon TTL (Nikon iTTL support is due in December).

That's where the bar is.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 

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