K5 dxo mark up, remarkable score, 1160 high ISO

so why not replicate the experiment with your camera?

those video doesnt say nothing..the camera can stop working the day following...the problem with water and moisture and dust is in the long run most of the time. my k7 follow from two meter in the asphalt and has only some scratches.
Jon Rty wrote:
wate
Looks very nice, but the discussion was if Nikon had something similar to the K-5 and 18-135mm for less than 1600€.

Did you look at this link?

http://reviews.davidleetong.com/articles/how-rugged-are-dslrs-canon-eos-550d-and-nikon-d70-torture-test-from-digitalrev/

Neither are marketed as sealed, or in any way robust, yet both survived much, much worse treatment than I'd ever dream of putting my equipment trough. Thus, I'd say that the topic of robustness or sealing has become more of a PR instrument than something truly beneficial.
 
Does the D7000 have ISO 80 as its base ISO like the K5?

both dpr and nikon.com say it's ISO 100
 
Stands up remarkably well, even against the D700 and D3s!

It's a huge improvement for Pentax fans. Hopefully the D7k will be in the same ball park. :)

Unfortunately sensor performance alone doesn't make up for all the other important aspects. :(
--
Now, now Richard, the sensor was the only weak area of the K-7 and an unfortunate carry over from the lumpy K20D (a camera that I bypassed).
The K20D sensor in mine was actually better than the K-7's I tried. I agree that the Samsung sensor was in many ways the achilles heel of both the K20D & K-7 and it looks like this has been addressed, but as I said (and I will stick by it) it doesn't make up for the other aspects that need addressing, not just camera bodies, but in the rest of the system.
The K-7 raised the bar in so many areas (not the least of which is the handling which is out there on it's own in the DSLR market) and now the K-5 hasn't mucked with that superb body but replaced the weak point of it's predecessor and raised the bar again in many other areas.
Disagree with you there, I actually liked the K20D a lot, in fact in many ways I preferred it over the K-7. I was also unhappy about some reliability and consistency aspects of the K-7 (and my lenses), I tried several that were suffering from possible SR issues, incorrect level indicators and inconsistent twitchy AF.
The way they do their stuff their own way just keeps me warmed to Pentax - their continued progress gives me a glow. Pentax are working their bit of the market pretty well (stuff like Limiteds and WR in consumer lenses remain unique - now there is a nice, light WR DA18-135mm too - very handy in soggy Britain!) and it's pretty compelling to me. Back in the *istD days things were a bit grim equipment wise but now it just keeps getting more and more compelling it seems laughable for me to contemplate a change to any other make. I just hope Hoya decides they want to stay in the photography market and stay in the black.
There is no doubt that Hoya are raising the bar and many of the products are very compelling, I just bought an Optio i-10 for one of our sons and family, a great little P&S camera with proper SR (not the pixel track rubbish) at an astoundingly low price (£89 from Clifton Cameras).

--
Richard Day - 'Carpe Diem!'
Gloucester UK
 
Because I don't own a D7000.

And now suddenly the videos don't mean anything? First you were hung up on them, but now that there are videos showing other equipment taking abuse and surviving they're suddenly meaningless? I hope you understand that if you dismiss the Nikon videos, then by extension you also dismiss the Pentax videos.

And if you'd actually looked at the videos the part 2 is taken days later, and show that the both cameras still work. Besides, hitting nails with your lens is a harder test than dropping your camera to the ground.
so why not replicate the experiment with your camera?

those video doesnt say nothing..the camera can stop working the day following...the problem with water and moisture and dust is in the long run most of the time. my k7 follow from two meter in the asphalt and has only some scratches.
 
Not really, as the D3x hold a unique position at the moment as the highest IQ DSLR. Thus, they're pricing it at what the market can bear, like any other free-market item. Only in a monopoly does costs dictate pricing.

And, considering that Pentax also has cooked RAW, even to such extent that DxOmark noticed it even though they didn't notice it on the D90, the comparison to the K-x is still valid. Thus by extension if anything you can expect the D7000 to outperform the K-5 in DxOmark ratings.

Which was my point all along.
The D3x body accounts for much of the price-difference, see the D3 and D700.
Assuming that's true, there's still 3k left to explain ;)
The D300(s), D90 and K-x share the same base sensor.
Yes and where the basis isn't spiced up with NR (D300s), Sony performs similar.
 
btw, all Pentax WR lenses are more than 'WR' lenses as shown by the video. reason why you can't see any test video of the 18-135mm is...it's not available in the market yet...very soon it will be available and i'll come back to this thread showing you the test of this new lens.
Read this again: From the Pentax 18-135mm release: "This zoom lens features a simplified weather-resistant construction to prevent the intrusion of water and moisture."

This was the lens you brought up, not I.

As for a video: http://reviews.davidleetong.com/...nd-nikon-d70-torture-test-from-digitalrev/ Look at them both. I'd say that's worse than throwing a bucket of water on a camera.
--
http://www.exp1orer.com

 
Just watch the videos:
http://reviews.davidleetong.com/...nd-nikon-d70-torture-test-from-digitalrev/

EDIT: Oh my god DPReviews url shortener is useless. Here you go, this should take you where you there: http://bit.ly/9Jh7f0
btw, all Pentax WR lenses are more than 'WR' lenses as shown by the video. reason why you can't see any test video of the 18-135mm is...it's not available in the market yet...very soon it will be available and i'll come back to this thread showing you the test of this new lens.
 
Not really, as the D3x hold a unique position at the moment as the highest IQ DSLR. Thus, they're pricing it at what the market can bear, like any other free-market item. Only in a monopoly does costs dictate pricing.
You're actually making my point. It's priced higher because it delivers better IQ. So looking at the price, it wasn't surprising it performed better than the A900. They obviously went out of their ways to get the best out of that sensor, just like they did with the D3s.
And, considering that Pentax also has cooked RAW, even to such extent that DxOmark noticed it even though they didn't notice it on the D90, the comparison to the K-x is still valid. Thus by extension if anything you can expect the D7000 to outperform the K-5 in DxOmark ratings.
As I've stated before, I highly doubt it because the D90 and the D5000 are the only Nikons that appear to have clear NR going on under the hood. The D300s which appeared later clearly abandonded that path. No more artifacts, at the cost of DXO results. The D3100 doesn't show the D90 artifacts in RAW, neither does the D7000.
 
But again, the IQ doesn't equal significantly higher manufacturing costs. Thus the price is a effect of the IQ, not the other way around.

http://bit.ly/9HVsqV

Is the D90 RAW cooking documented? Looking at the SNR 18% graph only the K-x shows obvious NR. A quick google search also didn't turn up anything.
Jon Rty wrote:

You're actually making my point. It's priced higher because it delivers better IQ. So looking at the price, it wasn't surprising it performed better than the A900. They obviously went out of their ways to get the best out of that sensor, just like they did with the D3s.

As I've stated before, I highly doubt it because the D90 and the D5000 are the only Nikons that appear to have clear NR going on under the hood. The D300s which appeared later clearly abandonded that path. No more artifacts, at the cost of DXO results. The D3100 doesn't show the D90 artifacts in RAW, neither does the D7000.
 
But again, the IQ doesn't equal significantly higher manufacturing costs. Thus the price is a effect of the IQ, not the other way around.
That's something we don't know since we don't know the R&D that has to be spread over the total production and we don't know the price of the better surrounding electronics used.
http://bit.ly/9HVsqV

Is the D90 RAW cooking documented? Looking at the SNR 18% graph only the K-x shows obvious NR. A quick google search also didn't turn up anything.
Asside from blackpoint clipping, no one really came up with measured results that without a doubt prove NR. But you can open up some high ISO D90 shots in any RAW converter and you will see artifacts that I have only witnessed in jpeg engines, a paintery effect with unevenly spread smoothed patches and unevenly spread noise blotches. Not seen in any Nikon (except D5000), Canon, Olympus, etc.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1037&message=36814089
 
Brett St Pierre wrote:

The K-7 raised the bar in so many areas (not the least of which is the handling which is out there on it's own in the DSLR market) and now the K-5 hasn't mucked with that superb body but replaced the weak point of it's predecessor and raised the bar again in many other areas.
Disagree with you there, I actually liked the K20D a lot, in fact in many ways I preferred it over the K-7. I was also unhappy about some reliability and consistency aspects of the K-7 (and my lenses), I tried several that were suffering from possible SR issues, incorrect level indicators and inconsistent twitchy AF.
Hi Richard, I never have had any consistency issues with my K-7 despite being from the first batch. My only real lens issue was that DA17-70 that was astonishingly soft at the long end but the Sigma 17-70 I got at the same time was almost as poor so they both went back. The SDM failure on the DA*16-50 I could put down to the time Gabriel dropped it on a hard floor, the zoom & AF both jammed and front and internal elements were at odd angles :(

As far as handling, OMG, OMG, OMG, the K-7 is the most heaven I have experienced in camera handling and serious reviewers seem to agree at least in part. DPR stated so. The chubby K10D I happily waived goodbye from that perspective. Not every button is perfect on the K-7, but it's so well shaped & sized even for my large hand I am worried that one day Pentax will change the design (it is inevitable I know) and this beautiful thing will be lost.
There is no doubt that Hoya are raising the bar and many of the products are very compelling, I just bought an Optio i-10 for one of our sons and family, a great little P&S camera with proper SR (not the pixel track rubbish) at an astoundingly low price (£89 from Clifton Cameras).
A few weeks ago I bought Sharon a Panasonic Lumix TZ10 (GPS, 25-300mm OIS) so cheap IMO from B&H. It is beautifully made, surprisingly small for that lens and has plenty of features but at the end of the day you just can't get past the disappointment of the tiny sensors in the compact.

The TZ10 is fairly well reviewed and ticks all the boxes as a handy travel compact but even at ISO 80 in good light the images on our 27' iMac don't come within a mile of any DSLR. After having high hopes of a quality compact, I couldn't help but be disappointed as I went through the images first time (and second time!). Lack of optical viewfinder irks me too. Maybe I am becoming a grump bas..rd!

Regards,

--
Brett
http://www.pbase.com/shreder



The Journey is the Thing
 
I currently have both the D7000 and K5 , the K5 is a bit better at handling shadow noise and the D7000 has a bit better AWB.

Both are remarkably good as a DX and in good light they can match the D700 in terms of just pure noise control.

having said that , they are still DX and having some serious DX Noise reduction characteristics that cannot hold it together in bad light.

you will see some seriuos difference in mid tone and dark shadow area compared to FX bodies in real low light........

the worse the light the more clear difference you will see between these latest DX and D3s or the D700.

the DXO is becoming a bit too ridiculous, they must have been testing all cameras only in studio and reading sensor data there.....

K5 and D7000 are good but not as good as any FF , it is just more and more sophisticated NR in RAW.

I guess guys at DXO cannot see this.

shoot human or black items(like lots of tripods in shadow) and apply some fill light you will see what I mean.

the D7000 is a good camera for casual action event shooter but not as good as the D700 as Thom says.

although its AF is good and much better than the AF of the D90 or the K5 , it is not match for the Nikon pro AF.

it is bit slower and hunt more often in low light compared to the FX AF system of the CAM3500FX.

the K5 is a good low light cam with good DR (IOS100-800)but its AF is so bad it struggles in low light or tracking on any moving subject, not even close to the level of the Nikon AF.

also as Dave of slrgear.com says, I can honestly say the K5's SR(or any Pentax in-body SR) is the least effective image stablization of any kind in lens or body I have tested myself.

My Sony A900 has a bit more effective SSM and my old Oly E30 had much better inbody IS.

and I dont find Pentax lens line so attractive , limited primes are small and attractive but they are netiher fast enough nor sealed enough.

if the concept of the K5 is small high ISO low light camera with exceptional sealing in its class , then they should make all primes sealed.

and DA* zooms are not as good as Canon or Nikon or Sony pro zooms.

so , as much as I want to love the K5 and Pentax system , I think I will keep my Nikon D7000 as a back up to my D3s and D700 and sell the K5.

I did not expect this though , it seems like I am still shooting 3 brand kit for a while at least until the 5D3 and D800 are announced.

for now, for me the cheapest solution is to use Sony, Nikon and Canon for all different type of applications.

just hope the D800 to have at least 24mp or the 5D3 to have a bit more sophisitcated AF coupled with a bit more complex metering system used in the 1D4.

finally I really hope the D800 to have the REAL 100 percent VF.

the D7000 has only 97 percent VF as Dave says in his review on this camera.

I think Nikon is most reliable sytem avaialble now although I dont like to admit this , I d have to say the D7000 is the best DX body for now and it is much more matured camera than the K5.

Finally , I was quite shocked to know how slow these Pentax small primes are optically and in AF.

Dont get me wrong I am not bashing Pentax , in fact I want to keep it because it fits into my right hand extremely well and it is really well sealed tough body.

But its AF and metering system are 3 generations (at least )behind Nikon or Canon.
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Camera-Sensor/All-tested-sensors/Pentax/K5

The K5 is highest ranked crop by a mile. Can't wait to see Nikon D7000 score. Graphs do show smoothing, but still, well implemented.
--
derek.
 
the D7000 is extremely quiet and it is so nice that I can use this camera in my dim quiet church.
--
derek.
 
Resulting pixel contains 3 values, R, G, and B. Calculations not taking this simple fact into account are not accurate when we talk of viewing the image in colour. Look at it this way - under normal daylight, for an average scene, even with pre-balancing, only green channel saturates (if you do not blow it of course by a stop or two). Other two channels are underexposed and do not reach saturation. When luminosity is restored during demosaicing noise propagates, so even if we try to estimate dynamic range on luminosity only numbers DxO are suggesting do not help. Further, different sensors have different noise clustering characteristics which further invalidates those numbers. Until the disconnect with photography continues and noise is not measured in terms of resolution there is very little use in checking DxO numbers. Their current faux pas (together with LL folks) is just another demonstration of not being able to connect measured data with photography.

--
http://www.libraw.org/
 
Nothing? I've seen people submerge an E3. Until I see that test repeated with a Pentax, I wouldn't state the latter can't be matched.
I made this video some time ago with my K20D. I have better lens than the kit DA18-55 WR; but its nice having very economical and decent performing fully sealed lens for less than $200 (USA). My K20D has been in storms, of all kinds snow and rain. As the weather here in MI is a 4 season climate. Its also been hit by dust with cars going down dirt roads, and rocks! Not a scratch on it.

Now don't get me wrong. I am a Pentax fan. But I believe Nikon has a better AF system, flash system. I am equally impressed with the K-5, its kinda amazing. However in a few years entry level cameras will have the same ability :) !!! All of us win with Sonys breakthrough :)

So don't be jealous anyone of its abilities in low light, just wait ;)

Anyways the Pentax bodies have proven themselves to me to be very dependable in bad weather. I have been using them in all weather for years now no problems.

Check out my video made awhile ago; It was a for fun, Pentax fanboy video not shown anyplace but the Pentax SLR forum till now. The camera and lens are fine, not a drop of water got past any seal that I could see. Its still working 15,000 pics latter.

Video below of K20D...

http://s195.photobucket.com/albums/z77/jamesm700/?action=view ¤t=618e78f5.mp4

--
jamesm007,

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesm007/
http://s195.photobucket.com/albums/z77/jamesm700/
 
Resulting pixel contains 3 values, R, G, and B. Calculations not taking this simple fact into account are not accurate when we talk of viewing the image in colour. Look at it this way - under normal daylight, for an average scene, even with pre-balancing, only green channel saturates (if you do not blow it of course by a stop or two). Other two channels are underexposed and do not reach saturation. When luminosity is restored during demosaicing noise propagates, so even if we try to estimate dynamic range on luminosity only numbers DxO are suggesting do not help. Further, different sensors have different noise clustering characteristics which further invalidates those numbers. Until the disconnect with photography continues and noise is not measured in terms of resolution there is very little use in checking DxO numbers. Their current faux pas (together with LL folks) is just another demonstration of not being able to connect measured data with photography.

--
http://www.libraw.org/
Are you saying that DxO is measuring luminance from a single, pre-demosaiced RAW channel rather than either looking at all channels and/or the demosaiced output? The following link implies they are sampling all channels in a proprietary demosaiced manner.

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/en/Learn-more/Understanding-DxOMark-Database/DxOMark-testing-protocols/Noise-dynamic-range
 
hehe, I read it a few times before I posted and just read it again. I'm probably missing something obvious. Here's the part I'm focusing on:

"Once the target is measured and the DxO Analyzer software is calibrated, the selected camera shoots an image of the noise target at different ISO settings, and the noise for each color channel of the target image (R, Gr, Gb, B) is then measured. The mean gray level and noise values are computed for each patch and for all images shot at different ISO settings. These numerical values are interpolated for all gray levels to calculate and plot signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) curves, from which DxO Analyzer extracts the SNR 18%, the dynamic range, and the tonal range."
Please read it carefully and thoughtfully again and again.

--
http://www.libraw.org/
--
Kodak Instant Camera
Kyocera 1MP Camera phone (pre-paid phone plan)
http://horshack.smugmug.com/
 
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Camera-Sensor/All-tested-sensors/Pentax/K5

The K5 is highest ranked crop by a mile. Can't wait to see Nikon D7000 score. Graphs do show smoothing, but still, well implemented.
I was sent some low light indoor sports images from the K5 (ISO3200-12800). The DR and saturation was very good, but the NR was very heavy (default auto-NR and jpegs), eating details. Now that could probably be improved by different settings, but why so much NR to begin with, if the high ISO performance is as good as the claims.
--
http://dslr-video.com/blogmag/
 

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