Nikon CLS should be updated: from infrared to radio signal.

First of all I dont want this to be done "VIA".

Second: Why it should be +$180? Every new replacementof the outdated product has same "starting price as the outdated one when it had been introduced. And I believe Nikon can do it better than PW since it will be (I hope) done as built in.

UKphotographers said:

MIC37 said:

Nikon CLS should be updated: from infrared to radio signal. It will make CLS much better. Are you concur?

Click to expand...

Yes, although I doubt that it's going to happen real soon.

How much more will you be willing to pay? +$180 per unit sound about right ?

It seems that the option is already available if you want it via Quantum and has been so for quite a considerable time, along with higher outputs. Whilst Nikon, Canon, RP, PW etc.. we're/are still trying to do it Quantum is and have been.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?

Click to expand...

MIC37 said:

First of all I dont want this to be done "VIA".

Second: Why it should be +$180? Every new replacementof the outdated product has same "starting price as the outdated one when it had been introduced.

Click to expand...

Actually, no.

Nikon has consistently raised flash prices with every iteration. And sometimes, they've done that without an increase in variable costs.

• SB-28DX was an SB-28 with a firmware alteration to support the D-TTL protocol and coded preflash group. The price increased $40
• SB-800 was an SB-80DX with a firmware update to support the iTTL protocol. Nikon eliminated the SB-80DX forward facing red-eye reduction lamp, saving variable cost, and increased the price $20.
• SB-900 has a longer zoom head than SB-800, and a mechanism for telling the camera when a gel filter is used. For that, the price went up $120.

MIC37 said:

And I believe Nikon can do it better than PW since it will be (I hope) done as built in.

Click to expand...

You might as well accept that it's not going to be "done as built-in", no matter how much you "hope".

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

MIC37 said:

Joseph,

This bundle at ADORAMA was about $10 less 2-3 days ago. Today $309-$279=$10 http://www.adorama.com/SKL358T.html

Click to expand...

$309-$279 = $30, not $10.

Don't forget, you're dealing with "the MAC group", the exclusive US distributor for both Sekonic meters and Pocket Wizards. They do very weird things with bundles, like giving away a "free" Mamiya body (they are also the exclusive US distributor for Mamiya) with the purchase of a Leaf digital back. You don't suppose that they got Mamiya to give them free cameras to facilitate this...

MIC37 said:

I mentioned RT-32 as an example. It is up to Nikon how it will be implemented.

Click to expand...

If it is up to Nikon, I'd expect it not to be implemented, at all, for reasons I've already outlined. There's really no business case: you're projecting your desires onto the rest of the world as if there were enough people who agreed with you to make it worthwhile to produce the product you desire.

MIC37 said:

I would say all photography related items have insanely high profit margin

Click to expand...

I would say you're wrong.

Look at some annual reports: Pentax and Oly are barely profitable, there's no insane profits. Sony is evaluating shutting down their DSLR operation, and has apparently already instigated a pull-out of the FF DSLR market.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

Sony is evaluating shutting down their DSLR operation, and has apparently already instigated a pull-out of the FF DSLR market.

Click to expand...

What a shame. They've built a really top notch FF lens lineup, arguably surpassing Canon and Nikon...

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Click to expand...

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bogdanmoisuc/

MIC37 said:

First of all I dont want this to be done "VIA".

Second: Why it should be +$180? Every new replacementof the outdated product has same "starting price as the outdated one when it had been introduced. And I believe Nikon can do it better than PW since it will be (I hope) done as built in.

Click to expand...

If Nikon or Canon were remotely interested in providing any upgrades to their flash range at all, this would have been done by now. I guess that they're not remotely interested, otherwise there would have been some sort of rumour by now.

Not only would radio be included, but so too would be more power.

To want improvements at no cost increase is probably why Nikon won't provide it. Your expectations might be typical, and would contribute significantly to why it hasn't, and why it might never be provided. That sort of encouragement will sure get Nikon to provide more for less.

I gave up on Nikon providing anything along these lines a long time ago, and went VIA. In hindsight, it was the right decision.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?

Joseph,

Thank you for the correction. YES, $309-$279 = $30 (multitasking did not work for me today...)
Everything what I wanted to know: Do you want it or not?

There were almost same reactions like now when I had posted the question about articulated screens in DSLRs. No, I am not Nostradamus, but the Nikon D5000 was the answer. I believe D9000 will have the screen also (not LCD but ELD). Same with HD video in DSLRs. Same with DX format vs FX.

I believe, the sooner the radio based CLS is implemented by Nikon, the sooner it will become affordable.
I guess, Nikon screening this type of forums...
Only Time Will Tell, if I am wrong...

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

MIC37 said:

Joseph,

This bundle at ADORAMA was about $10 less 2-3 days ago. Today $309-$279=$10 http://www.adorama.com/SKL358T.html

Click to expand...

$309-$279 = $30, not $10.

Don't forget, you're dealing with "the MAC group", the exclusive US distributor for both Sekonic meters and Pocket Wizards. They do very weird things with bundles, like giving away a "free" Mamiya body (they are also the exclusive US distributor for Mamiya) with the purchase of a Leaf digital back. You don't suppose that they got Mamiya to give them free cameras to facilitate this...

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

I mentioned RT-32 as an example. It is up to Nikon how it will be implemented.

Click to expand...

If it is up to Nikon, I'd expect it not to be implemented, at all, for reasons I've already outlined. There's really no business case: you're projecting your desires onto the rest of the world as if there were enough people who agreed with you to make it worthwhile to produce the product you desire.

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

I would say all photography related items have insanely high profit margin

Click to expand...

I would say you're wrong.

Look at some annual reports: Pentax and Oly are barely profitable, there's no insane profits. Sony is evaluating shutting down their DSLR operation, and has apparently already instigated a pull-out of the FF DSLR market.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Click to expand...

MIC37 said:

I believe, the sooner the radio based CLS is implemented by Nikon, the sooner it will become affordable.

Click to expand...

Radio built into speedlights is not a new idea. It was discussed here at least 18 months ago:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1025&message=30557388&q=nikon+radio+cls&qf=m

Nothing has changed since then. Why do you think it might? Surely, if the intention was for Nikon to integrate radio into flashes it will have already been done by now?

Nikon have built P&S cameras with radio transfer of images already - yet not a sign of radio with speedlights.

Best find an alternative provider IMO.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?

UKphotographers,
Do you want the radio based CLS to be implemented by Nikon? Yes or No?

UKphotographers said:

MIC37 said:

I believe, the sooner the radio based CLS is implemented by Nikon, the sooner it will become affordable.

Click to expand...

Radio built into speedlights is not a new idea. It was discussed here at least 18 months ago:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1025&message=30557388&q=nikon+radio+cls&qf=m

Nothing has changed since then. Why do you think it might? Surely, if the intention was for Nikon to integrate radio into flashes it will have already been done by now?

Nikon have built P&S cameras with radio transfer of images already - yet not a sign of radio with speedlights.

Best find an alternative provider IMO.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?

Click to expand...

MIC37 said:

UKphotographers,
Do you want the radio based CLS to be implemented by Nikon? Yes or No?

Click to expand...

Not being a kill joy, yes.

When did I want it? Over 2 years ago.

When is it ever likely to happen? Way past the time it should have already been there.

Am I bothered? No, because I've sorted out the issue and Nikon have lost out on a sizeable chunk of $$$'s and ££££'s.

If you're planning on waiting for Nikon to provide you with a radio solution, you will be waiting a long time yet.

Probably more appropriate, I've heard that the Quantum system that I use are testing a radio adapter for both Nikon and Canon to control these within their existing radio setup, rather than using the IR as they currently do. Because of this, it's very unlikely that I will ever need to upgrade/change/rebuy whatever offering Nikon ever decide to produce (if they do). You'll find that this, amongst the users of RP, PW's, Quantum and other radio systems is perhaps one of the major reasons why Nikon or Canon won't go the radio route. Too much competition and already too much investment on the part of users in alternative means.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?

Makes sense to me...

UKphotographers said:

MIC37 said:

UKphotographers,
Do you want the radio based CLS to be implemented by Nikon? Yes or No?

Click to expand...

Not being a kill joy, yes.

When did I want it? Over 2 years ago.

When is it ever likely to happen? Way past the time it should have already been there.

Click to expand...

You'll find that this, amongst the users of RP, PW's, Quantum and other radio systems is perhaps one of the major reasons why Nikon or Canon won't go the radio route. Too much competition and already too much investment on the part of users in alternative means.

UKphotographers said:

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?

Click to expand...

The price of the radio based speedlights cannot be higher than the combined price of the Nikon / Canon speedlight + transmitters / receivers from RP, PW's, Quantum and other radio systems. I believe it will be less.
In addition, it would be more convenient and logical.
It would be funny if it will be done by Pentax or Olympus.

By the way, nobody mentioned Nikon SU-4 Wireless Remote Slave TTL Flash Controller. Looks like PW

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/158077-REG/Nikon_3070_SU_4_Wireless_Remote_Slave.html

Probably Nikon can update it with the radio but built-in receiver as intermittent solution for those who has invested...

A simple Norman 400ws LH2KM UV Flash Head is $318. With a radio it's $417.50. These don't include TTL, or remote group settings, so I really doubt that Nikon, if they ever decide to produce a radio enabled flash will want to give it away. I'd guess they would prefer not to have the headache of users complaining about radio interference, reduced range etc.. etc.. and to compensate they will add on the $$$'s.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?

MIC37 said:

By the way, nobody mentioned Nikon SU-4 Wireless Remote Slave TTL Flash Controller. Looks like PW

Click to expand...

That's not radio, it's IR still.

Radio and IR are completely different things. Even the SU-4 unit is $84 before you think about upgrading it to radio.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?

LX93 said:

UKphotographers said:

MIC37 said:

UKphotographers,
Do you want the radio based CLS to be implemented by Nikon? Yes or No?

Click to expand...

Not being a kill joy, yes.

When did I want it? Over 2 years ago.

When is it ever likely to happen? Way past the time it should have already been there.

Click to expand...

You'll find that this, amongst the users of RP, PW's, Quantum and other radio systems is perhaps one of the major reasons why Nikon or Canon won't go the radio route. Too much competition and already too much investment on the part of users in alternative means.

Click to expand...

That's touching on one of my objections to a Nikon "solution".

Although there's no interoperability between the third party solutions (Pocket Wizards, Radio Poppers, Quantum Free X-Wire, Cyber Sync) they all permit some degree of mixing studio strobes and speedlights. And they all work with third party flashes like Metz or Quantum, in addition to Nikon flashes.

I saw a Radio Popper demo where one transmitter was controlling the most incredible array of stuff: Nikon flashes in iTTL mode mixed with older Nikon speedlights, Canon speedlights, and Alien Bees studio strobes, all with remote control of power.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

MIC37 said:

The price of the radio based speedlights cannot be higher than the combined price of the Nikon / Canon speedlight + transmitters / receivers from RP, PW's, Quantum and other radio systems.

Click to expand...

Of course it can.

You may have missed what I wrote over here...

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1025&message=36788660

Here's some examples of how a Nikon price can be much, much higher. Nikon

• updated the firmware in the SB-28, called it SB-28DX, and raised the price $40.
• updated the firmware in the SB-80DX, and made the flash cheaper to produce by removing some components, called it SB-800, and raised the price $20.
• gave the SB-900 a longer zoom head than SB-800, and a mechanism for telling the camera when a gel filter is used. For that, the price went up $120.

MIC37 said:

I believe it will be less.

Click to expand...

Yes, you've stated that. But people with experience both in product development and with pricing policies in the industry have shown you why that is a false belief.

MIC37 said:

In addition, it would be more convenient and logical.

Click to expand...

Since it couldn't control mixes of studio strobes and speedlights the way competing systems can, it would not be more convenient. It would possibly be more orthogonal, more similar to existing controls, but that does not mean that it would be more logical.

MIC37 said:

It would be funny if it will be done by Pentax or Olympus.

Click to expand...

Yes, it would be hysterical.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

Joseph S Wisniewski wrote:

Sony is evaluating shutting down their DSLR operation, and has apparently already > instigated a pull-out of the FF DSLR market.

Click to expand...

i kind of agreed with your points up till now, however you just started regurgitating rumour started by Thom Hogan regarding sony DSLR.

if sony are abandoning FF why have they just launched a FF 24mm f2 Zeiss AF lens?

why are they continuing to advertise a prototype 400mm 2.8?

and if 2.4ghz is a hangover from the 1940's why are these products going to be launched later this year?





Regardless of what you believe are the reasons the true facts are that the big companies travel down the path of least resistance to gain PROFIT.

Most photographic equipment gets sold to people who can't take a decent photograph to save their lives, just look at the rubbish that gets posted on the pro forums. Most equipment gets purchased by mid life crisis men with more money than talent and its then stored under the bed "somewhere safe" and only comes out when it gets traded in for "the latest model"

That is the way it is.

Thats why there is "mint" equipment appearing on the second hand market, theres a whole lot of people who don't know how to use their pro gear. Hence there is basically no need for the big companies to cater for the requirement of a small percentage of users, unless of course they find a way to make loads of money out of it, but seeing as the Chinese are already about to release a solution at knockdown prices what market is left for the big boys?

--
Praise be to Sony for saving the A mount.

eye-spy said:

Most photographic equipment gets sold to people who can't take a decent photograph to save their lives, just look at the rubbish that gets posted on the pro forums. Most equipment gets purchased by mid life crisis men with more money than talent and its then stored under the bed "somewhere safe" and only comes out when it gets traded in for "the latest model"

That is the way it is.

Click to expand...

I have a feeling that if there was a 'Nikon' tag on any of that equipment you just posted - there would be grown men crying and running around in circles trying to control their bladders and blood pressure

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?

WOW! I always thought that the did increase the prices. I purchased my SB800 for $325.00 in NYC. The SB900 were running $499.00 on the street. Used SB800's were going for around $400.00 to $425.00. USED!

I guess I better shop at the store MIC shops at. I'll save money.

Nikon did apply for a patent on a flash with radio.

The price will go up if you need to have both a radio transmitter chip and a radio receiver chip inside each Speedlight, plus the cost of auxiliary circuitry.

If you want more power, you need larger more expensive capacitors and of course a larger flash tube to handle it. What about the increased heat problem? Change the design of the flash to have a parabolic reflector - which means giving up the zoom head. Maybe not.

Then take into consideration inflation, higher material costs, higher labor costs, higher shipping costs, ad infinitum.

eye-spy said:

eye-spy said:

Joseph S Wisniewski wrote:

Sony is evaluating shutting down their DSLR operation, and has apparently already > instigated a pull-out of the FF DSLR market.

Click to expand...

i kind of agreed with your points up till now, however you just started regurgitating rumour started by Thom Hogan regarding sony DSLR.

Click to expand...

Actually, no. I've still got my own ins at Sony Semiconductor.

eye-spy said:

if sony are abandoning FF why have they just launched a FF 24mm f2 Zeiss AF lens?

why are they continuing to advertise a prototype 400mm 2.8?

Click to expand...

600mm f4.2 equivalent on APS, an extraordinarily useful lens.

And the 24mm is pretty useful as a 35mm equivalent, although a little slow.

eye-spy said:

and if 2.4ghz is a hangover from the 1940's why are these products going to be launched later this year?

Click to expand...

It's not a "hangover from the 1940s", it's a band that was given over to anarchy (originally microwave ovens, but later, WiFi, Bluetooth, cell phones, garage door openers, and all these incompatible and non-interoperable remote controls).

eye-spy said:

http://journal.phottix.com/wp-content/uploads/Phottix-Helios-TTL-Trigger.jpg

http://www.pixelhk.com/pixel_cn/20101668pixel/admin/subWeb/uploadProImage/9_16_2010%203_22_40%20AM0.jpg

Click to expand...

eye-spy said:

Regardless of what you believe are the reasons the true facts are that the big companies travel down the path of least resistance to gain PROFIT.

Click to expand...

Did I say that they didn't? You are building elaborate counters to arguments that I never made.

eye-spy said:

Most photographic equipment gets sold to people who can't take a decent photograph to save their lives, just look at the rubbish that gets posted on the pro forums. Most equipment gets purchased by mid life crisis men with more money than talent and its then stored under the bed "somewhere safe" and only comes out when it gets traded in for "the latest model"

That is the way it is.

Click to expand...

eye-spy said:

Thats why there is "mint" equipment appearing on the second hand market, theres a whole lot of people who don't know how to use their pro gear. Hence there is basically no need for the big companies to cater for the requirement of a small percentage of users, unless of course they find a way to make loads of money out of it, but seeing as the Chinese are already about to release a solution at knockdown prices what market is left for the big boys?

Click to expand...

Agreed.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com