Sigma: Trick or Treat?

Well -

I know we have seen a few pics from Japan - some good - some not so good.

And there seems to be a debate over whether the pics are coming from someone who is trying to show pics taken under harsh conditions - to try to show the the true limit of the camera.

Others mentioned that the shots had problems, regardless of the intentions of the photographer.

And let me say I am sure most (if not all) of us - SD9 fans or not - appreciate the first-looks from this person's camera in Japan....

So.....

What do you think so far?

Is Sigma delivering a trick..... or a treat.... ????

I vote treat

(but more based on Phil's and the German Site's pics)

=)

-Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Owner & Lover
Soon-to-be Sigma SD9 Owner (& Lover???) =)
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

I think what we've seen is no better than seeing nothing at all. Since all shots are in raw and converted, without knowing the conversion parameters there are too many variables to be able to form an opinion. I did read somewhere that the Firmware is user upgradeable. It will be interesting to see how fuji handles the issues that do come up. The SD9 will not be without it's quirks and limitations, and in a lot of cases may underperform it's competition, but I think the technology is here to stay and it will be fun to be with it from the beginning.

Treat

Kevin R.

Samuel Pyrtle said:

Well -

I know we have seen a few pics from Japan - some good - some not so
good.

And there seems to be a debate over whether the pics are coming
from someone who is trying to show pics taken under harsh
conditions - to try to show the the true limit of the camera.

Others mentioned that the shots had problems, regardless of the
intentions of the photographer.

And let me say I am sure most (if not all) of us - SD9 fans or not

• appreciate the first-looks from this person's camera in Japan....

So.....

What do you think so far?

Is Sigma delivering a trick..... or a treat.... ????

I vote treat

(but more based on Phil's and the German Site's pics)

=)

-Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Owner & Lover
Soon-to-be Sigma SD9 Owner (& Lover???) =)
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

Click to expand...

I am still not ready to judge on that. we need to see side by side comparisons made by different cameras at the same conditions. a side by side comparison of different makers with same lens and then with different lenses is probably a wishful thinking, but that is what i would have done myself.

so far the samples i have seen appear in the last day or two do not impress me at all - i am particularly displeased with sigma's rendition of red neon lights as white or orange in the night shot - this is absolutely unacceptable, without any excuses.

blooming and chromatic abberations (may they be of sensor- or lens-related nature are not encouraging either.

but well ... people will most likely label me sigma-basher.

regards

veniamin kostitsin
http://www.digitalimage.at/

Samuel Pyrtle said:

Well -

I know we have seen a few pics from Japan - some good - some not so
good.

And there seems to be a debate over whether the pics are coming
from someone who is trying to show pics taken under harsh
conditions - to try to show the the true limit of the camera.

Others mentioned that the shots had problems, regardless of the
intentions of the photographer.

And let me say I am sure most (if not all) of us - SD9 fans or not

• appreciate the first-looks from this person's camera in Japan....

So.....

What do you think so far?

Is Sigma delivering a trick..... or a treat.... ????

I vote treat

(but more based on Phil's and the German Site's pics)

=)

-Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Owner & Lover
Soon-to-be Sigma SD9 Owner (& Lover???) =)
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

Click to expand...

--
Veniamin Kostitsin II
http://www.digitalimage.at/

Veniamin Kostitsin II said:

but well ... people will most likely label me sigma-basher.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't go that far - I don't think you sound like a basher -

I agree... the red blow-outs are discouraging - regardless of why.

And that CA is not a pretty thing either...

It is so hard to judge with what we have seen - but I will remain optimistic for now....

Thanks for the comments...

And I agree that tests results form a side-by-side comparision will be better - and I cannot wait for Phil's review.

=)

Thanks-
Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Owner & Lover
Soon-to-be Sigma SD9 Owner (& Lover???) =)
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

Samuel Pyrtle said:

Is Sigma delivering a trick..... or a treat.... ????

Click to expand...

The shots we have seen in the last couple of days were all mostly sub-35mm wide angle. I could be wrong, but my understanding is wide angle is best for landscape photos and one would use the upper f-stops such as f/8 or f/16, instead of f/4. In addition, even in the Canon SLR forum most people recommends the 15-35 over the 20-40. So I dont believe those photos showed us what the camera can do, but rather what the wrong lens or setting and the camera can do. If anything, it does provide info on what not to do with that lens. ;p

Samuel Pyrtle said:

I vote treat
(but more based on Phil's and the German Site's pics)

Click to expand...

Ditto on that vote using the same basis ... But the final vote isnt in yet as I still want to see what Phil has to say in his review.

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery

Samuel Pyrtle said:

And there seems to be a debate over whether the pics are coming
from someone who is trying to show pics taken under harsh
conditions - to try to show the the true limit of the camera.

Click to expand...

When Phil released his set of images that included the barge picture, I had posted a message asking if he could look at some magenta speckles on the barge's handrails, which, like the magenta-all-over-the-race-car picture, appeared to me to be some overflow problems in a single image plane. Phil replied with something like "they know about it and are working on it." (Phil is always so cryptic, eh? Perhaps it is a Brit thing, wot? .

IMO, if this is simply an overflow problem in the RAW conversion, it should be a trivial fix. If it is an overflow at the on-chip A/D converter, it will be, "sssssssss (sucking air in through teeth)... very difficult."

Ditto Erik's "bright red turning into white problem." Let us hope that one turns out also to be a bug in the conversion software, or I will not be buying my next camera for quite a while!

The SD-9 can either be a trick or a treat; I'm going to wait for a thorough analysis by Phil. If the above problems are sensor problems, it would have turned a treat into a trick for me.

Those errors, if permanent, are a deal killer to me. Modulo these problems, the pictures shown so far are simply beautiful (maybe not in the artistic sense... . I still have a feeing that it is in the software; I can't imagine it to not be detected on the lab bench, otherwise.

(It would also be interesting to run the same images through the Mac version of the conversion software. The results may or may not be the same.)

(Notice also that there is a Merrill U.S. Patent on getting more dynamic range from sensors through overflows, or something like that. I haven't read through that patent.)

• kc

Kok Chen said:

Samuel Pyrtle said:

And there seems to be a debate over whether the pics are coming
from someone who is trying to show pics taken under harsh
conditions - to try to show the the true limit of the camera.

Click to expand...

When Phil released his set of images that included the barge
picture, I had posted a message asking if he could look at some
magenta speckles on the barge's handrails, which, like the
magenta-all-over-the-race-car picture, appeared to me to be some
overflow problems in a single image plane. Phil replied with
something like "they know about it and are working on it." (Phil
is always so cryptic, eh? Perhaps it is a Brit thing, wot? .

Click to expand...

That's funny kc...

He can be a little cryptic huh? Maybe you're right and it is a Brit thing... or a reveiwer thing....

=)

Kok Chen said:

IMO, if this is simply an overflow problem in the RAW conversion,
it should be a trivial fix. If it is an overflow at the on-chip
A/D converter, it will be, "sssssssss (sucking air in through
teeth)... very difficult."

Click to expand...

At least your are ssssssssucking air - I am holding my breath and about to die!

ha!

=)

Kok Chen said:

Ditto Erik's "bright red turning into white problem." Let us hope
that one turns out also to be a bug in the conversion software, or
I will not be buying my next camera for quite a while!

The SD-9 can either be a trick or a treat; I'm going to wait for a
thorough analysis by Phil. If the above problems are sensor
problems, it would have turned a treat into a trick for me.

Click to expand...

me too! And I don't like tricks that much! ;-)

Kok Chen said:

Those errors, if permanent, are a deal killer to me. Modulo these
problems, the pictures shown so far are simply beautiful (maybe not
in the artistic sense... . I still have a feeing that it is in
the software; I can't imagine it to not be detected on the lab
bench, otherwise.

Click to expand...

I hope you are correct on this one! I really do! And I like the fact that we can do our own firmware upgrades when necessary...

Kok Chen said:

(It would also be interesting to run the same images through the
Mac version of the conversion software. The results may or may not
be the same.)

Click to expand...

I am thinking of buying a Mac - if I do, I will let you all know the results.... (Assuming the camera arrives soon.... )

Kok Chen said:

(Notice also that there is a Merrill U.S. Patent on getting more
dynamic range from sensors through overflows, or something like
that. I haven't read through that patent.)

• kc

Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing kc -

I always enjoy reading your posts.

=)
Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Owner & Lover
Soon-to-be Sigma SD9 Owner (& Lover???) =)
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

I think the Foveon chip produces the most film-like digital image to date. I may have to avoid shooting red lights and overexposing things. Maybe we can use a reverse red-eye action on those tail lights? .

Leah

Jimmy Chen said:

Jimmy Chen said:

Is Sigma delivering a trick..... or a treat.... ????

Click to expand...

The shots we have seen in the last couple of days were all mostly
sub-35mm wide angle. I could be wrong, but my understanding is wide
angle is best for landscape photos and one would use the upper
f-stops such as f/8 or f/16, instead of f/4. In addition, even in
the Canon SLR forum most people recommends the 15-35 over the
20-40. So I dont believe those photos showed us what the camera can
do, but rather what the wrong lens or setting and the camera can
do. If anything, it does provide info on what not to do with that
lens. ;p

Click to expand...

I am looking at the 15-35 as my next purchase for this camera - and I like the reviews and comments from current users in the Canon SLR forum. So I might go with that one myself. I hope you're right, and that so far, they are not using the best lens (in the best way) to show what this camera can do...

Jimmy Chen said:

Jimmy Chen said:

I vote treat
(but more based on Phil's and the German Site's pics)

Click to expand...

Ditto on that vote using the same basis ... But the final vote isnt
in yet as I still want to see what Phil has to say in his review.

Click to expand...

Good for you - always an optimist.... Although a realist too!

=)
Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Owner & Lover
Soon-to-be Sigma SD9 Owner (& Lover???) =)
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

Samuel Pyrtle said:

So.....

What do you think so far?

Click to expand...

I know you are going to be buying this camera, Sam, and I think
you will be happy with it. Others will be happy with it as well, I am
sure.

For myself, if these recent problems are not lens problems, I
still look at it as being Foveon X3, version 1.0, and as a 1.0
version of something it is still pretty impressive stuff.

There's nothing I have seen that makes me change my opinion
that my next camera will have a Foveon X3 sensor in it. But I
think it will be at least 18 months before I replace the Canon G2
I bought 11 months ago.

Leah said:

I think the Foveon chip produces the most film-like digital image
to date. I may have to avoid shooting red lights and overexposing
things. Maybe we can use a reverse red-eye action on those tail
lights? .

Leah

Click to expand...

Leah -

I find that those shots from Phil and from the German site are just wonderful in their non-digital look and feel.

That is also what excites me most about this new technology - and hopefully this SD9.

I look at my other shots from current (Sony 707) and previous digital cameras (E-10 for example), and they are really nice - but they have this look of being digital - it's hard to explain really. But for me, once I saw the smoothness of the SD9 shots, there was no turning back....

It is full steam ahead!

(Just watch out for those blasted red tail lights!)

=0

Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Owner & Lover
Soon-to-be Sigma SD9 Owner (& Lover???) =)
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

Samuel Pyrtle said:

Well -

I know we have seen a few pics from Japan - some good - some not so
good.

Click to expand...

The SD-9, like all cameras--particularly digital ones, will have it's strengths and weaknesses. If your preferred type of photography can exploit the former and avoid the latter, it will be a treat. Otherwise, wait until the next generation to see where things are going.

No camera is perfect. The SD-9 may be more bi-polar than most (i.e., either very good or very bad), so that potential buyers need to make sure they understand exactly what they are getting. Perhaps it's just as well that cameras trickle out so that fewer buyers will be surprised by any of this.

--
Erik

tim martin said:

Samuel Pyrtle said:

So.....

What do you think so far?

Click to expand...

I know you are going to be buying this camera, Sam, and I think
you will be happy with it. Others will be happy with it as well, I am
sure.

For myself, if these recent problems are not lens problems, I
still look at it as being Foveon X3, version 1.0, and as a 1.0
version of something it is still pretty impressive stuff.

There's nothing I have seen that makes me change my opinion
that my next camera will have a Foveon X3 sensor in it. But I
think it will be at least 18 months before I replace the Canon G2
I bought 11 months ago.

Click to expand...

Hi Tim -

It would be hard to upgrade after only 11 months - I would feel the same way.

Since my partner and I both enjoy digital photography, we need 2 cameras. And we have always had 2 over the least 2 years.

I just got my 707 about 5 months ago now - and I love it.

We decided to sell his E-10 (which we had for about 2 yrs) and replace it with the SD9.

I am sure that when the next gen of X3 comes out, I will be replacing my 707 with that one. (after all, I cannot let him have the newest camera for too long!!! HA!)

So - that is where I hope to go with all this - Get some good lenses now, get the current X3 version (SD9 of course), and have some fun with it. And in 18 months or so - look to get the next version that comes along.

I love electronics and am the type to always want to play with the latest and neatest things out there - it is my passion I guess.

Who knows, maybe I will be the winner of that ol' saying 'He who has dies with the most toys wins...'

=)

Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Owner & Lover
Soon-to-be Sigma SD9 Owner (& Lover???) =)
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

Well said Erik!

I sometimes get to wonder if (for some) the greatest pleasure to be had from digital is in running around in clouds of speculation before the product is actually available

maybe its a case of when in trouble, or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout

Mike

Erik Magnuson said:

Samuel Pyrtle said:

Well -

I know we have seen a few pics from Japan - some good - some not so
good.

Click to expand...

The SD-9, like all cameras--particularly digital ones, will have
it's strengths and weaknesses. If your preferred type of
photography can exploit the former and avoid the latter, it will be
a treat. Otherwise, wait until the next generation to see where
things are going.

No camera is perfect. The SD-9 may be more bi-polar than most
(i.e., either very good or very bad), so that potential buyers need
to make sure they understand exactly what they are getting. Perhaps
it's just as well that cameras trickle out so that fewer buyers
will be surprised by any of this.

--
Erik

Click to expand...