Hee Hee... great answer Nick, love it.... true too, sometimes I wonder where these misguided opinions come from, not from experience methinks.
Phil
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Is this the normal Panasonic build quality?
- Thread starter Bodomalo
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Phil
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Ednaz
Guest
1: Those old lenses do not have rubber on them. So yeah, that grip is intact. Are you willing to pay for that amount of machined metal or high density plastic? Apparently most people are not, all lens manufacturers are now using textured rubber-like compounds, and all are having issues. there is no rubber or soft plastic compound that can reliably survive the pollutants in the air in a normal urban environment, not even tires.
2: I think you should not buy any gear from any manufacturer who has problems with soft sticky rings on the lenses or camera bodies. That'll show 'em. And you'll have to have another hobby other than photography.
bjmike
Leading Member
A small piece of double-sided tape. A very small dab of rubber cement. A fat rubber band that'll fit around the lens.
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Tim in upstate NY
Veteran Member
The focus and zoom grips on virtually every lens by every company are made from a PVC polymer. There are numerous polymer formulas provided by countless different suppliers to the consumer electronics manufacturers. These different formulations have different properties that can include having that 'rubbery' feel that is wanted for a focus and zoom ring. Obviously, it's hard to know what the long term properties are with some of these rings without subjecting them to testing over a period of time. I'd think that it's hard for a company to know in advance exactly what these suppliers are providing to them until its too late several months later when these issues arise among their customers.
My kensington wireless mouse has a similar ring around its sides that has become softened and loose much the same as is seen on these lenses. My guess is that the skin oils on my fingers and thumb have acted to break down this polymer and cause it to degrade. If it was made from natural rubber, maybe it wouldn't have happened. Hardly anything on a consumer level device has any natural rubber anymore for decades now so it doesn't make much sense to complain about it. It is what it is.
BTW . . . My Panny 14-45's zoom ring is doing just fine so far for almost a year now.
My kensington wireless mouse has a similar ring around its sides that has become softened and loose much the same as is seen on these lenses. My guess is that the skin oils on my fingers and thumb have acted to break down this polymer and cause it to degrade. If it was made from natural rubber, maybe it wouldn't have happened. Hardly anything on a consumer level device has any natural rubber anymore for decades now so it doesn't make much sense to complain about it. It is what it is.
BTW . . . My Panny 14-45's zoom ring is doing just fine so far for almost a year now.
Derek Bach
Leading Member
Hi,
I bought a G1 shortly after it became available with a 14-45mm and 45-200mm. Subsequently I added a 20mm pancake when it became available. Both the camera and the three lenses are still in mint (mint-?) condition and are used most days. The 14-45mm has had most use followed by the 20mm. The 45-200 only gets taken out when I know I will need it.
The body is still excellent condition and the rubber feel covering is still in great condition and no lugs have fallen off!
Incidentally, I use a neck strap and/or a shoulder bag which is not designed for photo equipment. I also use a non Panasonic battery and keep my camera and lenses full up to the latest mod levels!
I've recently bought an Olympus 9-18mm lens which looks as good a constructional quality as the Panasonic G1 and lens.
Derek
I bought a G1 shortly after it became available with a 14-45mm and 45-200mm. Subsequently I added a 20mm pancake when it became available. Both the camera and the three lenses are still in mint (mint-?) condition and are used most days. The 14-45mm has had most use followed by the 20mm. The 45-200 only gets taken out when I know I will need it.
The body is still excellent condition and the rubber feel covering is still in great condition and no lugs have fallen off!
Incidentally, I use a neck strap and/or a shoulder bag which is not designed for photo equipment. I also use a non Panasonic battery and keep my camera and lenses full up to the latest mod levels!
I've recently bought an Olympus 9-18mm lens which looks as good a constructional quality as the Panasonic G1 and lens.
Derek
FlashInThePan
Veteran Member
Please help me understand what proper attitude one should adopt in such cases.
The OP is obviously wrong by being annoyed, as I would be if I were in his shoes, but you seem to have it all worked out.
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Jonathan
The OP is obviously wrong by being annoyed, as I would be if I were in his shoes, but you seem to have it all worked out.
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Jonathan
The OP is pulling the rubber of off the lens.
"Hey look, if I poke here, it bends."
I have five Panasonic lenses. My 14-45 has been in my backpack for thousands of miles mountain biking, with hands covered in sun cream and dirt and sweat, and has not had this problem, and seems like new.
The rubber on my 14-140 I noticed had slipped out off the groove a little bit. I popped it back in, and it is fine now.
If you tug and pull at these rubber components, they will become loose.
I guess if you leave them in hot direct sunlight, they may become soft then get pulled out of shape. The manual says not to leave the camera in the sun. RTFM.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30225435@N00/
"Hey look, if I poke here, it bends."
I have five Panasonic lenses. My 14-45 has been in my backpack for thousands of miles mountain biking, with hands covered in sun cream and dirt and sweat, and has not had this problem, and seems like new.
The rubber on my 14-140 I noticed had slipped out off the groove a little bit. I popped it back in, and it is fine now.
If you tug and pull at these rubber components, they will become loose.
I guess if you leave them in hot direct sunlight, they may become soft then get pulled out of shape. The manual says not to leave the camera in the sun. RTFM.
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phototransformations
Veteran Member
I haven't had any trouble with cosmetic issues (or any other issues) with my year+ G1 and 14-45 and 45-200mm lenses. However, I had a raft of problems with my Nikon D80 and 18-200mm lens when I bought that a few years ago; it was many back-and-forth trips to Nikon Service before everything got sorted out. When I posed in the Nikon forum, I got "beaten up" for complaining about my lens and camera by people who happened not to have trouble with their lenses and camera.
Roughly 1/4 of electronic things I buy have a problem either right out of the box or some time before the warranty is up. (And a significant percentage shortly after the warranty is up.) Quality control is not what it was years or decades ago. In software, "code and throw" is common, at least in the major software companies I worked for (code it, throw it over to Quality Assurance, and then out to the world). I think this is also true in hardware. It's cheaper to replace or repair the defective units or defective components than it is to produce 99% problem-free units. Sometimes this backfires, as with the Toyota issues, but most of the time it probably works out for manufacturers to proceed this way.
There is an old joke about an American semiconductor company subcontracting 100,000 transistors to a Japanese company and specifying a 95% "good" standard. The 100,000 transistors came back in two shipments, one a large container and the other a much smaller one. The American exec called Japan and asked why two boxes, and the Japanese manufacturer replied that the smaller box contained the 5,000 bad transistors he had ordered.
Those days are gone for the Japanese, who have learned to make things the "modern" way, which I believe we Westerners taught them.
Roughly 1/4 of electronic things I buy have a problem either right out of the box or some time before the warranty is up. (And a significant percentage shortly after the warranty is up.) Quality control is not what it was years or decades ago. In software, "code and throw" is common, at least in the major software companies I worked for (code it, throw it over to Quality Assurance, and then out to the world). I think this is also true in hardware. It's cheaper to replace or repair the defective units or defective components than it is to produce 99% problem-free units. Sometimes this backfires, as with the Toyota issues, but most of the time it probably works out for manufacturers to proceed this way.
There is an old joke about an American semiconductor company subcontracting 100,000 transistors to a Japanese company and specifying a 95% "good" standard. The 100,000 transistors came back in two shipments, one a large container and the other a much smaller one. The American exec called Japan and asked why two boxes, and the Japanese manufacturer replied that the smaller box contained the 5,000 bad transistors he had ordered.
Those days are gone for the Japanese, who have learned to make things the "modern" way, which I believe we Westerners taught them.
LOL. So now plastic is an expensive material? Besides, these Panasonic lenses are not exactly cheap (for example 14-140). Are you trying to say that it's technologically impossible to make a grip that stays put at a reasonable price? That's just nonsense. Ok, old lenses utilized some lost space age technologies, fine. Hiking poles today retail for 20 Euros a pair, have to withstand much higher levels of skin oils and mechanical rub, yet their grips have no trouble in staying put. Amazing, isn't it?
Btw, speaking of old lenses, the older ones do have machined grips. Newer ones have polymer grips. Some feel softer and rubber-like (e.g. Minolta MD and Hoya HMC), some feel harder (e.g. Canon). All work as intended.
I really don't understand your position. Rubber coming off is a defect, just like cracked LCD hinges and self-unscrewing lugs. So now it's suddenly OK to sell defective products, because other manufactures also have quality problems from time to time?
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Ednaz
Guest
The poster is outraged at Panasonic. Misplaced. The issue is, a combination of the economics of lens construction and people wanting high friction surfaces has created a design element inconsistent with the atmospheric pollutants that come with modern living.
My point is, raging at Panasonic is like yelling at your bathtub that the water doesn't obey you. The whole camera world has chosen an approach that has significant lifespan issues.
My old lenses (all less than 30 years) have zero rubber on them, and zero plastic. All heavily engraved or machined knurled surfaces. No one would pay for a lens like that now. Plastic with gummy plastic or rubber goes for $2400... I can afford the difference because it goes to cost that I use to bill clients. Photographers who shoot from love can not afford the high end approach, most likely.
So, get over it. One out of some much larger numbers of lenses has a loose soft ring. Straighten it. Or send it in for repair. But saying Panasonic are idiots? Go yell at the sea...
liquidsquid
Veteran Member
It is a materials vs. environment problem. There is no particular material immune to all scenarios. The material seems to be some sort of synthetic rubber which can absorb other materials such as oils and expand under very specific and rare conditions. I have theorized some hand lotions or even food oils (which can be excreted from the body) can dissolve into these materials and cause expansion, and just about everyone in the engineering field uses these materials. People here have poo-pooed my theory, but I have run across this before.
Some day take a look at what your remote control buttons are made out of. Same stuff. Almost all modern focus rings that feel tacky to the touch... same stuff.
I tried cleaning a remote control's keyboard off after a spill of food in rubbing alcohol, so I let is soak in a bath for a little while. Darned thing expanded to about 2X the original size, I could not for the life of me figure out how to get it back together. I was able to bake it in the toaster oven on low heat and it shrunk back down. I still have that remote.
So, you could try fixing it by soaking the ring in rubbing alcohol for a day or two to get the foreign material dissolved out, then bake the ring at 100C to get it to shrink back down. That is a last resort though. You have other options I would take first.
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Some day take a look at what your remote control buttons are made out of. Same stuff. Almost all modern focus rings that feel tacky to the touch... same stuff.
I tried cleaning a remote control's keyboard off after a spill of food in rubbing alcohol, so I let is soak in a bath for a little while. Darned thing expanded to about 2X the original size, I could not for the life of me figure out how to get it back together. I was able to bake it in the toaster oven on low heat and it shrunk back down. I still have that remote.
So, you could try fixing it by soaking the ring in rubbing alcohol for a day or two to get the foreign material dissolved out, then bake the ring at
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Ednaz
Guest
No, elaborate machining is expensive, whether it's machining plastic or magnesium. And as to whether Panasonic lenses are cheap... the last four Nikkors I bought were, every one of them, more costly than Panasonic's most expensive lens. And all of them had soft rubber polymer grips. One of which had a loose ring.
As to hiking poles - similar grip material as used on tennis rackets, golf clubs, and squash rackets. If yours are in good shape, you've never used them bare handed. Golf pros re-wrap their clubs several times a year, as do squash players and tennis players.
There's a cost to zero defects. If the manufacturers chose a material that NEVER loosened, the overall cost of the lens would increase. My issue is with the poster saying Panasonic sucks. No, the whole professional camera industry sucks, mostly because they're trying to hold costs down. New Hasselblad lenses are having the same issues - about 1 in 1000 or higher (probably 1 in 10,000) but still an issue. I could care less about costs - my customers pay for my gear, so I'd LOVE lenses with no polymer friction rings and with very expensive machined magnesium rings. Bring it on. I can handle it. But I am in the minority.
Our entire kit of m4/3 is less than the cost of one 'blad lens. I'm not saying, bad quality is acceptable. I am saying, providing a specific design element, soft friction-intense compound rings, will have a failure rate higher than machining a friction-intense surface into the ring itself, but a much lower cost of manufacture. Either show you're willing to pay for high intensity machining (open your wallet), or tolerate the failure rate of other surface decisions. I'm exhausted by people who put Lenin to shame with expectations of economically non-viable approaches to design. We'd all love Champagne and strawberries for breakfast. Few of us are willing to do what it takes to have that legitimately.
I don't know whether the material on golf clubs and squash rackets is similar or not, but my pole handles are in excellent shape and I did use them extensively for four years while living in Switzerland. If you want, I can post pictures as well. And, yes, I do use them barehanded most of the time. In fact I can recall wearing gloves only for 2 days when I burned my hands in high altitude sun.
Yes, the whole camera industry lowered quality standards, but
a) that's because people are putting up with crappy products
b) that is the matter of separate discussion.
Let's stick to the issue at hand. Nobody is talking about 0 defects here. But to anyone without prejudice it is clear that Panasonic has way above average number of problems with grips coming off (and lugs self unscrewing, but that's again another story). Simply search Canon or Olympus forums and compare the number of complaints regarding this specific issue.
That Minolta in my post above has what appears to be a polymer friction ring. Whatever it is, it is not metal and it is not machined. You are trying to spin it as though decent grips have to be machined. This is not so.
Oh drop it. Pany saved about $5 per lens on decent rubber and about $1 on glue. That's all there is to it. When you multiply that by the number of lenses sold, that should be a decent profit. I hope, however, their greed backfires. Certainly I don't see why any user would try to justify such "clever" approach.
No. None of the Panasonic lenses I have bought for my G1, or the 14-45mm kit lens that came with it, have shown this kind of defect. I did buy them in a brick and mortar photographic store, so I took the opportunity to inspect them before parting with my cash.
After that I have always kept the camera in a protective Neoprene case and it has never shown any signs of damage to the finish.
There are ways of getting good service from any organisation, so possibly it is your attitude that has prevented you from receiving such service? If you behave like a troublemaker, and I am not saying that you did, you sometimes meet with a negative response. Customer service people are only human after all and there are such things as trolls, timewasters and people with psychiatric problems they have to filter out and handle. Please note that I am not suggesting that you come into any of these categories.
If you keep it properly protected in a reasonable quality camera bag you should not see these kind of problems.
No.
It is always misleading to rush to overall judgment on any company's product based on a sample of one unit.
Sorry if my replies are too direct for you, but in mitigation I plead that I am genetically 25% a Yorkshireman!
P.S. For those outside the UK people from Yorkshire are stereotypically very honest and direct in their dealings with other people.
P.P.S. All except one Canon camera I have owned has had to be returned under warranty for manufacturing defects, and two of them have simply died electronically just out of the warranty period. It was this record that brought me to consider Panasonic cameras in the first instance since my Panasonic TV, microwave and cordless telephones have all been exemplary in their performance.
You are not really asking a question. You already draw conclusions and tell us that you will look for Canon/Nikon.
I have a G1 and have had other cams. Compared to the Canon DSLRs I had and the FZ-50, it seems to be a little less sturdy than the tanklike FZ-50 but it felt much better than the Canon 1000 and 450D. I never had any problems with it and I use the camera outdoors in bad weather etc.
If you are not happy and with it, I would advise you what you advise yourself: buy something else.
But in general: the rubbergrip problem happens to others aswell. The lens thing: never saw that before. I believe this wil happen with any lensseries every once in a while. Out of thousands there will be always one that will become defected.
Panny service: You seem to be right again. From what I hear here it seems to be below par, lacklustre. Another reason to seriously reconsider this brand if you had problems with the hardware and support.
I wish you better luck with your new cam!
I have a G1 and have had other cams. Compared to the Canon DSLRs I had and the FZ-50, it seems to be a little less sturdy than the tanklike FZ-50 but it felt much better than the Canon 1000 and 450D. I never had any problems with it and I use the camera outdoors in bad weather etc.
If you are not happy and with it, I would advise you what you advise yourself: buy something else.
But in general: the rubbergrip problem happens to others aswell. The lens thing: never saw that before. I believe this wil happen with any lensseries every once in a while. Out of thousands there will be always one that will become defected.
Panny service: You seem to be right again. From what I hear here it seems to be below par, lacklustre. Another reason to seriously reconsider this brand if you had problems with the hardware and support.
I wish you better luck with your new cam!
Bilgy_no1
Veteran Member
I once dropped my TZ5 while I was riding my bike. It has some scratches, but otherwise it functions perfectly well.
BTW, that was the second time it took a fall; the first time being that a colleague dropped it during a night out. It displaced the body parts near the tripod mount. Fortunately, this was 'fixed' after the second fall...
So no, your problem, should not be typical of Panasonic build quality...
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BTW, that was the second time it took a fall; the first time being that a colleague dropped it during a night out. It displaced the body parts near the tripod mount. Fortunately, this was 'fixed' after the second fall...
So no, your problem, should not be typical of Panasonic build quality...
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i had this problem as well. wrote a post about this 2 months back.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=36019949
no i did not abuse my camera, i used it as per normal.
and i wasnt the only one with this problem. but panasonic replaced it for free, albeit after a month wait.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=36019949
no i did not abuse my camera, i used it as per normal.
and i wasnt the only one with this problem. but panasonic replaced it for free, albeit after a month wait.
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