E-20N: Getting good results?

DonPgh

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Hi everyone

I have an E-20N loaned to me for evaluation purporses. I an using it in the highest quality jpeg mode. The results don't seem to be what they should be for a $1300 5.0 MP digital SLR with advanced capabilities. The colors, in particular, seem flat. The images aren't as good as I've seen from Canon and Sony cameras that are half the price.

Can anyone give me some advice on getting the most out of the E-20N? I know I am likely dealing with user error... not a bad machine!
 
1300 bucks?!? for E-20 wow! If I would have that chance.......

Flat? For me Oly looks natural-read pro in comparison to Sony and cheaper Canon models. But that's my opinion
Hi everyone

I have an E-20N loaned to me for evaluation purporses. I an using
it in the highest quality jpeg mode. The results don't seem to be
what they should be for a $1300 5.0 MP digital SLR with advanced
capabilities. The colors, in particular, seem flat. The images
aren't as good as I've seen from Canon and Sony cameras that are
half the price.

Can anyone give me some advice on getting the most out of the
E-20N? I know I am likely dealing with user error... not a bad
machine!
--
E-10 for now.........Gladly!!!
Take a Prayer!
http://www.pbase.com/image/5706283
 
Hi everyone

I have an E-20N loaned to me for evaluation purporses. I an using
it in the highest quality jpeg mode. The results don't seem to be
what they should be for a $1300 5.0 MP digital SLR with advanced
capabilities. The colors, in particular, seem flat. The images
aren't as good as I've seen from Canon and Sony cameras that are
half the price.

Can anyone give me some advice on getting the most out of the
E-20N? I know I am likely dealing with user error... not a bad
machine!
--
E-10 for now.........Gladly!!!
Take a Prayer!
http://www.pbase.com/image/5706283
--

I'm a new E-20 user myself...and have noticed the same 'flatness' to the color range of the camera. Takes some getting used to - changing the contrast to high helps somewhat. I came from a 3030Z, which seemed to be better. I'm still working with it.....

Rich
 
What is so exceptional about $1300? B&H just emailed $1319.00. Seems to be the going rate.

It may look natural to you, but what I am seeing is lousy. My regular outfit is a Canon D-60 with L lenses, and I do not expect it to compare... however, images from a Powershot G2 and the Sony S75-S85 clearly look better to me than anything I have seen from the E-20N. I was hoping to find results between the D60 and the G2 and S85.
Hi everyone

I have an E-20N loaned to me for evaluation purporses. I an using
it in the highest quality jpeg mode. The results don't seem to be
what they should be for a $1300 5.0 MP digital SLR with advanced
capabilities. The colors, in particular, seem flat. The images
aren't as good as I've seen from Canon and Sony cameras that are
half the price.

Can anyone give me some advice on getting the most out of the
E-20N? I know I am likely dealing with user error... not a bad
machine!
--
E-10 for now.........Gladly!!!
Take a Prayer!
http://www.pbase.com/image/5706283
 
What is so exceptional about $1300? B&H just emailed $1319.00.
Seems to be the going rate.

It may look natural to you, but what I am seeing is lousy. My
regular outfit is a Canon D-60 with L lenses, and I do not expect
it to compare... however, images from a Powershot G2 and the Sony
S75-S85 clearly look better to me than anything I have seen from
the E-20N. I was hoping to find results between the D60 and the G2
and S85.
WOW....while the Canon D60 will probably outdo the E-20 in many respects, I cannot even bear to hear someone compare a Sony, especially in terms of color. Sony is notorious for oversaturated, unnatural colors, specifically reds. In fact, people have been complaining about it for so long that Sony finally toned down the colors in the 717 so they are closer, in fact, to what you would expect from an E20. If you want to boost the color saturation on your Oly, my recommendation is to try out a polarizer. These handy little filters can increase color saturation, cut haze and glare, and are just about one of the most valuable tools a photographer could own. The colors will pop out a little more but still remain natural, a little more akin to what you would expect from your Canon.
 
It may look natural to you, but what I am seeing is lousy. My
regular outfit is a Canon D-60 with L lenses, and I do not expect
it to compare... however, images from a Powershot G2 and the Sony
S75-S85 clearly look better to me than anything I have seen from
the E-20N. I was hoping to find results between the D60 and the G2
and S85.
Don - I have seen pics from the Canon and agree there is a "warmth" to them that I don't see from my E-10. However the pics from the Exx should be anything but flat. I would suggest making sure the camera is set to ISO 80. I would NOT advise using high-contrast mode - in fact the advice of this board I have recently taken was to switch to low-contrast mode for bright sunlight pics - and I also underexpose 1/3 stop. This is on the principle that it is usually easy to bring back detail from underexposed areas, while washed out or over-exposed areas are lost forever.)

Still - in all default settings, I think the pics are beautifully sharp and clear and if you're not seeing that it IS possible there is something wrong. I find about 75% of my shots benefit from a 10% bump in saturation in Photoshop - however I just happen to like saturated color!

Hope that helps.
 
Hi everyone

I have an E-20N loaned to me for evaluation purporses. I an using
it in the highest quality jpeg mode. The results don't seem to be
what they should be for a $1300 5.0 MP digital SLR with advanced
capabilities. The colors, in particular, seem flat. The images
aren't as good as I've seen from Canon and Sony cameras that are
half the price.

Can anyone give me some advice on getting the most out of the
E-20N? I know I am likely dealing with user error... not a bad
machine!
You're comparing out of the camera images with processed ones. The E-10/20 images are flatter for a reason... more dynamic range. This allows you to get as much detail as you're capable of. You CAN bump them up in the camera by increasing the contrast and sharpness settings if you wish but you can't recover detail you never recorded. Here's a few examples of my E-10's images...









And check this one out at full size. You can see every detail in the lighted and shadowed areas...
http://www.pbase.com/image/2445251/original
 
Nice photos you've got there
But that still doesnt make cheaper than Sony or G2
Hi everyone

I have an E-20N loaned to me for evaluation purporses. I an using
it in the highest quality jpeg mode. The results don't seem to be
what they should be for a $1300 5.0 MP digital SLR with advanced
capabilities. The colors, in particular, seem flat. The images
aren't as good as I've seen from Canon and Sony cameras that are
half the price.

Can anyone give me some advice on getting the most out of the
E-20N? I know I am likely dealing with user error... not a bad
machine!
You're comparing out of the camera images with processed ones. The
E-10/20 images are flatter for a reason... more dynamic range. This
allows you to get as much detail as you're capable of. You CAN bump
them up in the camera by increasing the contrast and sharpness
settings if you wish but you can't recover detail you never
recorded. Here's a few examples of my E-10's images...









And check this one out at full size. You can see every detail in
the lighted and shadowed areas...
http://www.pbase.com/image/2445251/original
--
E-10 for now.........Gladly!!!
Take a Prayer!
http://www.pbase.com/image/5706283
 
Interesting comments about the flat color palette with this camera. Is this a color space issue ??

Anyone know where to access the E-20N color space gamut chart ??

I'm not a fan of oversaturated colors but would like that option is the subject suits. Plus viewing and / or printing files in the correct color space would make all adjustments easier.
 
Your images are awesome however I agree with the others that feel like the image is flat and requires post processing. You are obvious very good with PS or whatever you use but unless a person wants to invest another $700.00 for software and the countless hours it takes to learn it then a camera with 4-5 MP that has good pictures from the get go would be a better choice. IMO
Jeff S
WB9ZPO
C-21OO, E-1O, on order C5050

 
Your images are awesome however I agree with the others that feel
like the image is flat and requires post processing. You are
obvious very good with PS or whatever you use but unless a person
wants to invest another $700.00 for software and the countless
hours it takes to learn it then a camera with 4-5 MP that has good
pictures from the get go would be a better choice. IMO
Jeff S
WB9ZPO
C-21OO, E-1O, on order C5050

I've done nothing other than adjust brightness and contrast which is the same thing I've done with all my other cameras and what most everyone does with their digital images. My point was that the original poster said that his E-20 images looked flat out of the camera compared to the ones he's seen in Sony and Canon GALLERIES. Most likely, those images have been processed at least as much as mine if not more. I've seen very few images right out of the camera that I've been satisfied with. A "flat" image just means that I have more detail recorded and thus more to work with. I'd rather not rely on the camera's algorithms to decide how my image should look. To each his own, I reckon.
 
If you can achieve those results with only brightness and contrast then the color in my E-10 must be broken. To get anywhere near that I would have to saturate the colors some and in addition they would need some US mask. That is if I use the flat settings in the camera.

Anyway I did not mean to offend if I did. I was only venting my experience and the disappointment that I spent all that money on the E10 and still cannot get a decent picture without all the extra work.

Thanks for your patience.
Jeff S
WB9ZPO
C-21OO, E-1O C5O5O on order.

 
would you want to evaluate an E-20 when you own a D60?

In any event, I have owned a 'half price Sony' and agree with you that the images are more 'vibrant' and 'saturated' out of the camera (DSC-F505V) - that is the very point - they are TOO processed for serious work, especialy with the Sony in the reds, they are also very prone to color casts. I believe that the F707/717 are improved in this respect. I can't speak for the Canon's.

I am afraid you are making the mistake of comparing consumer grade cameras with professional equipment - with the former the assumption is made that the user will want to do little or no post-processing, with the latter dynamic range and colour accuracy is everything and 'darkroom' work is part of the process, albeit digitally.

The E-10/E20's are among the most colour accurate cameras on the market (E-10 is actually slightly better IMHO), perhaps you either have a faulty unit or your monitor and/or print combination has a problem.
Hi everyone

I have an E-20N loaned to me for evaluation purporses. I an using
it in the highest quality jpeg mode. The results don't seem to be
what they should be for a $1300 5.0 MP digital SLR with advanced
capabilities. The colors, in particular, seem flat. The images
aren't as good as I've seen from Canon and Sony cameras that are
half the price.

Can anyone give me some advice on getting the most out of the
E-20N? I know I am likely dealing with user error... not a bad
machine!
 
Nice photos you've got there
But that still doesnt make cheaper than Sony or G2
If you think shooting with a G2 or Sony will be the same as shooting with an Oly E20, you're probably not a photographer. Also I dare say there is a difference in build quality as well.

I find the less saturated pictures of the Oly to be more pleasing than the "beach ball" colors of the Sony. The G2 is probably a great camera but it's not an SLR, and I think (you can check Phil's reviews) that it's much more laggy (a big deal) than the Oly.

Getting the shot and having it to work with, beats any richly saturated missed moment any day of the week.

Clay
 
If you can achieve those results with only brightness and contrast
then the color in my E-10 must be broken. To get anywhere near
that I would have to saturate the colors some and in addition they
would need some US mask. That is if I use the flat settings in the
camera.

Anyway I did not mean to offend if I did. I was only venting my
experience and the disappointment that I spent all that money on
the E10 and still cannot get a decent picture without all the extra
work.

Thanks for your patience.
Jeff S
WB9ZPO
C-21OO, E-1O C5O5O on order.

I have my E-10 for 5 months now and I must say that I am happy with rhe color rendition. I got similar colors on flower pictures as have been shown here even that I do not use the saturation control in PS at all (except mentioned contrast and brightness).
Please execute me in remote action but would anyone advise me what

PRECISELY is meant by that NOISE which cannot be seen in reality but obviously is omnipresent on pictures taken by EXX.
With huble excuses for my simplicity, Jara.
 
would you want to evaluate an E-20 when you own a D60?
Exactly.
In any event, I have owned a 'half price Sony' and agree with you
that the images are more 'vibrant' and 'saturated' out of the
camera (DSC-F505V) - that is the very point - they are TOO
processed for serious work, especialy with the Sony in the reds,
they are also very prone to color casts. I believe that the
F707/717 are improved in this respect. I can't speak for the
Canon's.
There's a very easy way to compare - go to PhotoSig.com click on Photos and Browse by Camera. That can be very telling. You'll find that the E10 photos cover a broader spectrum of types of shots (landscape, portraits, etc.) where you'll find a zillion landscapes with the G2 - but very few people shots and practically zilch studio shots. I haven't ever looked at the Sony stuff because I won't consider a digicam and I'm not into a bunch of proprietary stuff (stick and battery). I rambled through the E10 section for a few days and decided that the camera will give me more of what I want, better tonality, and a picture right of the camera I can show to the client.
I am afraid you are making the mistake of comparing consumer grade
cameras with professional equipment - with the former the
assumption is made that the user will want to do little or no
post-processing, with the latter dynamic range and colour accuracy
is everything and 'darkroom' work is part of the process, albeit
digitally.
Being able to actually see through the lens to me is a big, big, big, BIG deal. I was taking hundreds of shots with an EVF to make sure I got 5 good ones because of OOF, etc. You can clog up a 40 gig hard drive very quickly with a pile of 5 megapixel pictures and get bogged down in post. The client short circuits too when you send the 300 proofs on a web site to look at. I found with 35mm, I was shooting 2 shots and moving on to the next pose because I was more confident I was getting what I wanted. If I find I consistently want to bump saturation, I can batch it.
The E-10/E20's are among the most colour accurate cameras on the
market (E-10 is actually slightly better IMHO), perhaps you either
have a faulty unit or your monitor and/or print combination has a
problem.
I downloaded Phil's E10 samples before I bought my E10 (only got it today) to print and the color saturation on them coming off my S9000 was much better than my Dimage. I think you might want to produce a print rather than judge just what you see on the screen.

Clay
 
Hi,

I felt the same way when I moved from my C3000 to an E10. What I didn't realize is that the C3000 has lots of in-camera processing so that the photos come from the camera with lots of saturation and sharpening.

The E-series cameras were intended for pro-sumers who expected/wished to do their own processing. It's better to have lots of info from which to work (and you do with the E10/20) so that whatever adjustments you make don't show in artifacting and image degradation. So while the shots may look 'flat' out of the camera, apply some levels, curves, and saturation (if you wish) and you'll have a shot that knocks your socks off. Here's an example!

(Hope someone hasn't already said all of this...I didn't read the whole thread before posting.)

Here's an example of the 'pop' of color that can be produced with post processing!




What is so exceptional about $1300? B&H just emailed $1319.00.
Seems to be the going rate.

It may look natural to you, but what I am seeing is lousy. My
regular outfit is a Canon D-60 with L lenses, and I do not expect
it to compare... however, images from a Powershot G2 and the Sony
S75-S85 clearly look better to me than anything I have seen from
the E-20N. I was hoping to find results between the D60 and the G2
and S85.
WOW....while the Canon D60 will probably outdo the E-20 in many
respects, I cannot even bear to hear someone compare a Sony,
especially in terms of color. Sony is notorious for oversaturated,
unnatural colors, specifically reds. In fact, people have been
complaining about it for so long that Sony finally toned down the
colors in the 717 so they are closer, in fact, to what you would
expect from an E20. If you want to boost the color saturation on
your Oly, my recommendation is to try out a polarizer. These handy
little filters can increase color saturation, cut haze and glare,
and are just about one of the most valuable tools a photographer
could own. The colors will pop out a little more but still remain
natural, a little more akin to what you would expect from your
Canon.
--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids
 
Clay I was joking and I agree with you.
the main poster clue is that he doesn't get enough colour for that money.

I love my E-10 and I wouldn't go for happy consumer sony-cam with reds killing my eyes having big hot-dog at front, I think people would laugh when I would try to do something proffesional, and I dont want to mention brick like G2 that makes great polished photos and so on.
Nice photos you've got there
But that still doesnt make cheaper than Sony or G2
If you think shooting with a G2 or Sony will be the same as
shooting with an Oly E20, you're probably not a photographer. Also
I dare say there is a difference in build quality as well.

I find the less saturated pictures of the Oly to be more pleasing
than the "beach ball" colors of the Sony. The G2 is probably a
great camera but it's not an SLR, and I think (you can check Phil's
reviews) that it's much more laggy (a big deal) than the Oly.

Getting the shot and having it to work with, beats any richly
saturated missed moment any day of the week.

Clay
--
E-10 for now.........Gladly!!!
Take a Prayer!
http://www.pbase.com/image/5706283
 
Yes the color from the E-xx are flat. It is that way to preserve the dynamic range and full color gamit. The consumer cams you mention are geared towards consumers so they make alot of adjustments in camera. These are adjustments that cant be undone later. I suggest setting the in camera sharpening and contrast settings to "soft" and "low". This will give you really "flat" images. BUT THE INFO IS IN THEM. A little levels and you are there. Curves if you know how to use curves. I dont like PS "Auto Levels" so a great automatic batch you could run would be the "iCorrect" Plugin for
PS. It is right on 80+% of the time.

If you want bang right out of the camera, maybe change the sharpening and contrast - I've never done it as I want the most info. If that isnt good, maybe you need a consumer camera.

GageFX

--

E-10, LiPo, FL-40, Stroboframe 120 QF, Lumiquest Softbox, Speedotron Force 10s, AlienBees, HP P1100, Epson 777, Epson 1280
 
Why on earth?

I'm a journalist and evaluate products on a regular basis. I ordered an E-20 because it seems to fit neatly between the G2-G3-701-717 gamut and the D100-D60 digital SLRs. I frequently receive emails from non-enthusiasts like us who read my column who are looking for a digital suitable for "serious" photography. The G2-717s are still point and shoots in my estimation, and if i recommend they spend $4,000 on a D60 outfit, they gag.

I think the E-20 is well worth the 35% premium over a 717 simply by the virtue of it being an SLR, and with the nice lens, SLR design, 5 MP, and ability to use an external flash, it is capable of "serious" work. I would like to add it to my list of recommended products, so I called Olympus PR (they contacted me offering evaluation samplesa few weeks ago) and asked for an E-20N to test out.

BTW, I am not comparing "gallery" images. I am comparing images I made myself. I don't want to recommend it unless it can at least equal the G2 in image quality as I perceive it. I strongly suspect it can, though I have not achieved it yet. (I've only had it four days.) That is why I am here... to ask the experts! I trust my friends on dpreview!

who lament that even the better
would you want to evaluate an E-20 when you own a D60?
Exactly.
In any event, I have owned a 'half price Sony' and agree with you
that the images are more 'vibrant' and 'saturated' out of the
camera (DSC-F505V) - that is the very point - they are TOO
processed for serious work, especialy with the Sony in the reds,
they are also very prone to color casts. I believe that the
F707/717 are improved in this respect. I can't speak for the
Canon's.
There's a very easy way to compare - go to PhotoSig.com click on
Photos and Browse by Camera. That can be very telling. You'll find
that the E10 photos cover a broader spectrum of types of shots
(landscape, portraits, etc.) where you'll find a zillion landscapes
with the G2 - but very few people shots and practically zilch
studio shots. I haven't ever looked at the Sony stuff because I
won't consider a digicam and I'm not into a bunch of proprietary
stuff (stick and battery). I rambled through the E10 section for a
few days and decided that the camera will give me more of what I
want, better tonality, and a picture right of the camera I can show
to the client.
I am afraid you are making the mistake of comparing consumer grade
cameras with professional equipment - with the former the
assumption is made that the user will want to do little or no
post-processing, with the latter dynamic range and colour accuracy
is everything and 'darkroom' work is part of the process, albeit
digitally.
Being able to actually see through the lens to me is a big, big,
big, BIG deal. I was taking hundreds of shots with an EVF to make
sure I got 5 good ones because of OOF, etc. You can clog up a 40
gig hard drive very quickly with a pile of 5 megapixel pictures and
get bogged down in post. The client short circuits too when you
send the 300 proofs on a web site to look at. I found with 35mm, I
was shooting 2 shots and moving on to the next pose because I was
more confident I was getting what I wanted. If I find I
consistently want to bump saturation, I can batch it.
The E-10/E20's are among the most colour accurate cameras on the
market (E-10 is actually slightly better IMHO), perhaps you either
have a faulty unit or your monitor and/or print combination has a
problem.
I downloaded Phil's E10 samples before I bought my E10 (only got it
today) to print and the color saturation on them coming off my
S9000 was much better than my Dimage. I think you might want to
produce a print rather than judge just what you see on the screen.

Clay
 

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