Why not add VR to ALL lenses epecially prime lenses????

and remember, you can't just blindly combine body IS with lens IS without them working together. if each IS system is working independantly, then they are working against each other (stabilized image through the lens + moving sensor = blurry image).
That's true indeed. I have spent some time playing with Oly body (IBIS) coupled with Leica lens (ILIS) and it simply didn't work together most of the time. But to my surprise, sometimes it worked fine.
in short... i really don't see this happening, BUT nikon's mount has an advantage in that VR lenses communicate with the body. canon's don't.
I don't expect to see that as well, just left my imagination to play a bit. I am quite sure there is no way back from in-lens IS ...

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http://www.intopicture.com
 
If all cameras were able to shoot 25K without compromise, that wouldn't change the performance gap between cameras that had VR and cameras that didn't have VR.
It isnt a "who's is bigger" contest, once you hit the needs of the scene, the differences mean nothing. Think about it, a 50 1.4 at 25K???? or a 200 2.8 @ 25K, unless you are stopping down on a moonlit scene, there are not too many situations.

However, the extra floating element will always be an optical detriment likewise so will in camera stabilization using current techniques.

-C
 
Well I guess your right. But just because sigma has a 85 1.4 lens for $900, doesn't mean nikon has one for $900. So just cause some other company finds a way to add it for $100 doesn't mean nikon would find it appropriate to add it for $100.
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Larry
 
Besides all the cost and weight issue, lens design ...i think its a sales strategy for Nikon......recent years and right now they are churning out all the new non-VR fast prime f1.4 and fast zoom f2.8, ppl are buying them out......4-5 years later Nikon would need a reason so that ppl would dump their lens and buy or upgrade to newer lens........ thats when they put in the VR... more money more money for Nikon then....

personally once they put in VR into f2.8 zoom and f1.4 primes there is no critical reason to upgrade to newer lens......... but who knows what will Nikon come up with in the future............

i for one has been contemplating going to sony if they hv high iso performance sensor.....the IBIS, high-iso performance and fast prime f1.4 would be a killer combination for available light photography
 
Just give me a fast Nikon DX mid range zoom with VR please...e.g 17-50/80 f2.8 VR. with good quality @ 2.8. Not too much to ask ??

Tamron,Sigma and Canon make one I believe....
The Tamron and Sigma are both significantly worse optically than the non VR versions which is the reason not to have it. The canon is pretty sharp but like both the other 2 not a pro lens. The wider the lens and the faster the aperture the more the VR causes problems to the point where even on DX for pro fast standard lenses it's not worth the retun and even more so on FX.
 
Extremely ridiculous... I have lots of non-VR lenses... IN-body VR is the most economical, rational, simple and effective solution...
It only works well up to 200mm lenses. It's not optimised for the lens. It can't compensate for focal plane curvature and it means the number of effective pixels are reduced.
 
70-200VR is twice the price of the 80-200. There are no non-VR version of the primes you mention, so you can not say there is no price difference.

Look at Canon:

70-200/f4 vs 70-200/f4 IS
70-200/f2.8 vs 70-200/f2.8 IS

The price for VR/IS is significant!!!

Maybe not on consumer kit lenses, but i doubt they have the same technology as found on the VR in the pro lenses.

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I'z lovez AiS'ez
 
Yes, and i would rather put my goldfish in there then shoot with them.

You could also say there is a 55-200 zoom for that price, why would someone want to spend $2400 on the 70-200 ?! Strange comparison.

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I'z lovez AiS'ez
 
There is no reason to have VR in f1.4 lenses.

VR/IS has been around for years, if Nikon wanted to upgrade their lenses with it, they would not have waited 10+ years with their AFD lenses. No company will upgrade their pro lenses within that short a time frame, makes no sense for them to. A different story then the mass produced consumer kit lenses which get upgraded every year just to please the mindless consumer.

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I'z lovez AiS'ez
 
1.Dont use a Canon camera
2. Wont buy a Sigma after having 2 that fell apart
3. Not impressed by 2.8 quality on the other option.
OK?
 
VR, IS, OIS, VC, OS etc. are all proprietary technologies. Each goes about stabilising in a different manner. So just because one manufacturer manages to stabilise a fast normal zoom, does not mean that another can also do it as well without adversely affecting image quality or lens size/weight/price. I recall reading a post from a knowledgeable member on these forums (can't remember the details) that said Nikon would not be able to make fast (2.8 or lower) stabilised lenses in the normal to wide range using their current VR tech.

There are those that will never put protective ND filters in front of their lenses since the additional glass can compromise the final image, the same would be true of in lens stabilisation. Turning off VR is not like taking off the ND filter though, the glass is still in the light path, this is the main reason some would prefer if Nikon could release two lines of lenses when it concerns VR. This way people could decide for themselves if the sacrifice in image quality and the additional cost is worth it (comparing non VR lens to VR lens with VR in the off position of course).

I don't find myself taking the kind of photos that benefit much from VR it seems since of the 9 lenses I own, only one has VR (18-200VR) and it is my second least used lens. For others who like to take shots of static scenes VR would obviously be handy to have.
 
This may be a stupid question but why doesn't Nikon add VR to all new lenses. Is it mainly reserved for super zooms like my 70-200?? Is it a cost thing? I LOVE my 24-70 esp for concert photography but I would love if it had VR. Also my 85 1.4 would be a huge plus. I paid a fortune for the 24-70, 14-24 and it seems like for the money this could have been added. I just picked up the 28-300 to test it and the VR is nice!
because VR is not perfect, under the shutter speed over focal length rules a non VR lens should be sharper than a switched on VR lens. there are situation that will be worse if you have VR switched on, like you are on a tripod, or shutter speed is faster than 1/125, you will have motion blurred corner. and there is no reason to have VR on wide angle lens it will make the images look less sharp on the corners.

you need to keep in mind that with a VR, there is a glass moving non stop to balance out the shake, so if the images is stalled, VR's movement will make it worse.
 
Just give me a fast Nikon DX mid range zoom with VR please...e.g 17-50/80 f2.8 VR. with good quality @ 2.8. Not too much to ask ??

Tamron,Sigma and Canon make one I believe....
VR is not perfect with wide focal lenghts, if you have 17mm with VR switched on, you will see more motion blurred in one coners, if your shutter speed is over 1/30 with 17mm I see no reason for it to have VR.

VR should be used with focal lenght longer than 80mm, the best result with VR is lens longer than 200mm.
 
I was in Barcelona for a week recently...didnt want to take all of my gear, took my wifes D90 and 18-105 vr . Lots of interior shorts, the city market and Gaudi houses...using small aperture so lots of slow shutter speeds used. 1/15 often Often at wide angle Without VR these would not have been poss(without tripod) No unsharp corners...just sharp ! Dont know where you get this theory from.
VR make your hand steadier at no matter what focal length, surely ?
 
VR is a wonderful technology, but is not always needed. It makes makes a lens larger, heavier, more complex, and more expensive. Those who normally use tripods or have good technique don't need it.
I totally agree on this! VR is off on my lenses for 90% of the time. let's not forget that VR is trying to compensate movements, the compensation its self creates movements, and you want only compensation when shooting at full focal lenghts at low lighting conditions. For example, when i want to shoot an object on low light conditions at 400 MM, and i see a shutter speed of 1/50, then i will put my VR on. for the rest, take a tripod, turn of VR, use a remote and lock mirror up. the only way to avoid movements. i know you will not always be in a situation to take these dramatic actions, but if you are, do so.

I will buy the 300 MM F4 within a couple of months, while it's got no VR, but i really don't need it most of the times (aviation shooting) so no problem for me at all...
 
You need to read up on the history a bit ... ;)
70-200VR is twice the price of the 80-200.
The AF 80-200 yes, but the real predecessor, the AF-S 80-200 was actually slightly more expensive then the first 70-200 VR when it was introduced.
There are no non-VR version of the primes you mention, so you can not say there is no price difference.
I have myself used the non-VR Micro 105, the non-VR 400/2.8 and the non-VR 500/4 and actually own a distinctly non-VR 300/2.8 ... :D
Look at Canon:

70-200/f4 vs 70-200/f4 IS
70-200/f2.8 vs 70-200/f2.8 IS

The price for VR/IS is significant!!!
Yes, I know this example is often brought up. But it is actually a rather moot point. Canon has four models since they know that having many similar models mean larger numbers sold in total (a well establised fact in retail), and if you choose to have both stabilized and unstablized versions you need to diffirentiate them according to price. This is a marketing decision, and has very little to do with cost of manufacturing.

A more interesting comparison is the Canon 70-200/2.8 IS and the Nikon 70-200/2.8 VR compared to the Sony 70-200/2.8 without stabilization. If stabilization is so expensive, why is the unstabilized Sony version more expensive in most markets? Same with the stabilized Canon/Nikon 300/2.8 compared to the unstabilized Sony and Olympus 300/2.8 lenses. Guess which ones are cheaper ...
Maybe not on consumer kit lenses, but i doubt they have the same technology as found on the VR in the pro lenses.
Well of course the stabilization components in a pro lens are going to be more expensive then those in a cheap lens - just as everything else in a cheap lens like the focusing mechanism, the barrel, and the lens elements themselves.

But the reason a pro grade lens expensive is becasue it is made to meet higher expecteations all through - VR by itself has very little to do with the overall price level.

Look at the 16-35/4 VR which has very evidently been design specifically around VR and adding VR to it has probably made a lot of difference to how it was built. So VR made it more expensive then? No, not really, the other path to go (not using VR) would have been making it a 2.8 lens, which would probably have meant an even more expensive design. So for all practical purposes, making it a VR design probably made it cheaper , not more expensive.

Or look at the 300/2.8 VR. One way to not include VR and still get some of that functionality would be to make it a 300/2.0 - Nikon used to make such a lens back in the days, and belive me, that was not a cheaper option ;)

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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!

By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny
 
There is no reason to have VR in f1.4 lenses.
Well, that is a bit of defensive thinking ... A bit like all those cries of "who need high iso when we have fast lenses" who tend to pop up every now and then.

VR is a help , and all help can be used to you advantage.

I shoot a lot with the 85/1.4 in dim light and if Nikon could make one that had VR who worked at f1.4 with similar results ... I would be all over it. I am no alien to let technology help me. I even use auto focus! :D
VR/IS has been around for years, if Nikon wanted to upgrade their lenses with it, they would not have waited 10+ years with their AFD lenses. No company will upgrade their pro lenses within that short a time frame, makes no sense for them to. A different story then the mass produced consumer kit lenses which get upgraded every year just to please the mindless consumer.
I am not so sure who the "mindless" part of the population is here :)

Consumer lenses are upgraded more often because the consumer market shifts faster then the pro market. And because those "mindless" people you seem to despise so much tend to outnumber the pro users by more then a healthy margin. Which mean they are of much more immediate economical importance to the manufacturers. Nikon developers - unlike you - do know which customers it is who pay for most of their salaries - the much despised entry level consumers.

Adding VR to a f1.4 lens is no trivial task from a technical standpoint, here IBIS is a more efficient path to follow.

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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!

By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny
 
I see some very strange comparisons in your message.

A Leica 35/1.4 is more expensive than the 70-200VR2, so I take it using VR and AF and zoom means you can actually make a cheaper lens than a MF prime with no electronics. That is what you are saying.

The 16-35 has no non-VR counterpart, so we will never know what that would cost (more money than with VR according to your theory). Comparing it with f2.8 and f2 zooms is just mind bogglingy irrelevant to the discussion.

Adding something to a lens = more expensive. Having to change the design of the lens to accommodate that extra something = even more expensive. I don't see where you are getting your info from that adding VR would make the lens cheaper than not having it at all.

PS: What we paid 10 years ago for a lens is not relevant, it is what you would pay today for two lenses, one having VR and one that does not. The one without VR will always be cheaper to make.

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I'z lovez AiS'ez
 
I see some very strange comparisons in your message.
Right back at you ;)
A Leica 35/1.4 is more expensive than the 70-200VR2, so I take it using VR and AF and zoom means you can actually make a cheaper lens than a MF prime with no electronics. That is what you are saying.
Could you please elaborate what you mean by this?
The 16-35 has no non-VR counterpart, so we will never know what that would cost (more money than with VR according to your theory). Comparing it with f2.8 and f2 zooms is just mind bogglingy irrelevant to the discussion.
Ever heard of the AF-S 17-35/2.8? Which is pretty much as close to a non-VR counterpart of the aforementioned lens you would get ...
Adding something to a lens = more expensive. Having to change the design of the lens to accommodate that extra something = even more expensive. I don't see where you are getting your info from that adding VR would make the lens cheaper than not having it at all.
For most lenses, in the design change is minimal and the actual components are not very expensive. In the overall scheme of things, VR is a very minor design addition to most lenses.

And: What do you think happen if that something you add make the lens sell in larger numbers? Since sales volume have a huge effect on price.
PS: What we paid 10 years ago for a lens is not relevant, it is what you would pay today for two lenses, one having VR and one that does not. The one without VR will always be cheaper to make.
Marginally cheaper to make I would argue, and if the addition of VR make the lens sell in larger numbers, it could very probably make the lens become cheaper.

And I do think it is rather relevant to compare prices between a lens without VR and a similar lens with VR replacing that first lens in the lineup. Judging from such comparisons, the added cost of VR is marginal and in the end has no real bearing on the sales price. Other factors, like volume, overall complexity of design is much, much bigger factors.

You argument is a lot like those naive people who think a camera body without autofocus and other modern functionailty would be cheaper. What it would do is make such a camera appeal to a much smaller user base, sell in smaller numbers and become much more expensive. Lenses and all other parts of tyhe photographic universe work pretty much teh same way. Adding features make them more useful to most users, which mean the sell, which mean prices can remain or at least just change marginally.

I am not saying VR comes for free in terms of manufacturing cost. What I argue is that it compared with other components in a lens it makes such a marginal contribution to cost of manufacturing, and since it makes a lens more appealing to more buyers, in the end it probably has a very neglible effect on sales price. It could even actually make a lens cheaper to buy.

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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!

By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny
 
Look at Canon:

70-200/f4 vs 70-200/f4 IS
70-200/f2.8 vs 70-200/f2.8 IS

The price for VR/IS is significant!!!
Yes, I know this example is often brought up. But it is actually a rather moot point. Canon has four models since they know that having many similar models mean larger numbers sold in total (a well establised fact in retail), and if you choose to have both stabilized and unstablized versions you need to diffirentiate them according to price. This is a marketing decision, and has very little to do with cost of manufacturing.
i agree and disagree with this.

canon is, again, in a different position than nikon. canon's line of telephotos differes from nikons slightly, but that slight difference makes a huge impact in how they sell their lenses.

i disagree that it's simply a marketing decision to differentiate the two lenses. although i agree that it's probably not an increased manufacturing cost. however, it is an increased cost of DESIGN. the 70-200 f/4L came out in, what, 1995? that lens has been on the market for more than 10 years. it has paid for itself and then some. it's still a wonderful lens, it's still a demanded lens, and it still sells.

the 70-200 f/4L IS, however, was only released a few years ago (i forget the exact dates). most likely, canon is still paying for all the R&D costs associated with designing and devloping this new lens. it's a simple fact that the IS version is a brand new lens and the standard version is an old design.

this is another reason why canon simply canno afford to put IS systems in its bodies. they are trying to make a profit. if they suddenly came out with a rebel camera body with in-body IS, what happens to the sales of all of their 70-200 f/4L ISs? they plummet, because everyone buys the '95 70-200 f/4L model for half the price.

a lot of people say things like "canon (or nikon, whomever) just wants profits, there's no way they would do that", and YES, our camera manufacturers are businesses, but you have to realize that if canon doesn't make profits, canon doesn't make ANY new lenses. if nikon doesn't turn a profit, nikon sells their camera division. that type of thing.

so you can't have it both ways. if canon came out with in-body IS they are basically shooting themselves in the foot. their profits and stocks will fall, they'll have to raise prices just to stay afloat. it's not a win-win situation.

FINALLY i have a serious question to ask --- if in-body IS is really that much superior, then how come canon and nikon remain the two most dominant camera manufacturers? now there can be several arguments made --- pros already invested in the canon system, better name recognition, other features, blah blah blah. these are all good points, BUT, i think that if in-body IS were really that special that it would have made a bigger splash.

and i'm not saying that sony, olympus, pentax, etc. make bad cameras. but they certainly don't sell as much as nikon and canon do.

i wonder if we are going to be asking the same thing in a few years about 3D TV? "why doesn't every TV have 3D? you can just turn it off if you don't want it" because i have a feeling (well, a hope) that 3D TV is not going to catch on.
 

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