Reading mode: Light Dark

I don't get the anti-NX fervor

Go to last post
Not in AF speed - pana is faster in one direction (near to far) and sammy in the other (far to near) or is that reversed. At any rate the average slightly favours the sammy.
 
Jorginho said:
Personally I really, really dislike the me-too attitude which seems so evident in the NX10 (G1 like).....
Click to expand...
The NX10 is not at all like the G1, apart from that the G1 is an exact copy of a DSLR and the NX10 bears a superficial resemblance to one, as a design side effect.

The G1 is not a nice camera to hold, it has that "you will hold the camera like this" attitude, the controls are in the wrong place and they make changing exposure settings a real camera-shake of a chore.

Also the viewfinder is way too central meaning it has to stick out miles to avoid giving the user a nose bleed, this, coupled with it's DSLR exact copy pronounced "L" shape and the dodgy flappy screen make it the least (if at all) pocketable "micro" cam in the world, might as well get a DSLR tbh. The G1 is also made from really cheap plastic, it doesn't have a very good screen, the sensor isn't very good and the jpeg engine is ugly.

It, of all the "micro" cameras, makes the worst case for itself. However, it was the first so there are are lot of users and it's not that bad at taking a photo as long as you're not too fussy and stick to ISO400 or below, or shoot RAW all the time.

The G2 is slightly better to hold, but Panasonic have gone down the gimmick route to make it work, but it still has nearly all of the flaws of the G1. The Gs were obviously not designed by a photographer.
 
I have the GF1 and NX10. I took both out recently and within a short while I was using the NX10 exclusively. It's handling is fantastic and is a joy to use. I just carry it with one hand with a wrist strap all day with no fatigue. What I really value over the GF1 is the viewfinder. It really does help in bright light and to compose pictures without any distractions. It also helps to hold the camera more stable not shooting at arms length.

If you're thinking of replacing the GF1 with an NX100 however, all I would say is that you may not be gaining much. Unlike the NX10, the NX100 has no viewfinder and is simlar in size and handling to the GF1. There's probably not a lot in the picture quality and the NX100 bundled lenses have no stabilisation, which for an 'arms length' camera may be a disadvantage. I would seriously consider the NX10 if you want to move to Samsung. You could always get the NX100 later once the prices drop and with a bundle, get the lenses at a good price that you can also use on the NX10, something I will probably do in time.
 
I will most likely get the NX10 successor. What really got me with the NX100 is the combination of small form factor and the i-Function lens. I do carry these cameras in a jacket or coat pocket. is the NX10 able to fit into a coat pocket with the pancake?
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oly-oly-oly
 
What you are saying here are personal preferences. I have the G1 and I like it very much. I had DSLRs before the G1 and the G1, to me, was much better and not merely a copy. I found the cam a bit smallish for my hands ,but very light and well balanced. I do not understand the problem with the viewfinder...never had a problem with it (nose bleeds?). Regardless of personal preferences, Panasonic had a truely innovative product.

If you look at most reviews, the Panasonic was commended for what it did as a first of a new kind.

Innovations or at least great accomplishements:
  • The screen (!) is/was fantastic. I wonder if you ever used it, because it is simply great. 1.4 million pixels is it (?) and great swiveling
  • The electronic viewfinder is marvelous still the best in class.
  • Fastest CDAF focussing ever by far and unsurpassed afterwards by other brands
  • Excellent liveview
  • Virtual any old lens could be mounted with an adapter and work great, thanks to MF assist also.
  • Of course what it delivered in such a small package, certainly when compared to its DLSR siblings (combo smaller and more light weight)
  • A really good kitlens
  • Good low light performance
  • Most testers were pleased with the ergonomics
Samsung simply copied this one when it comes to shape (DSLR style), when it comes to virtually everything else. The AMOLED is very nice, but does not swivle. The EVF is worse. You cannot use all sorts of manual lenses just like the Panasonic (very flexible). And as I said: despite a APS_c sensor, it does not perform any better. In fact, the noise performance in RAW is worse. Now people may like the Samsung better than the G1. It is taste. But the Samsung is nothing innovative. It is merely following Panny as it is doing now with the NX100. What is the NX100 doing really better than the GF1? Nothing really. Again, people may prefer either, but they are extremely similar. A "me-too" product all the way..ANd the GF1 is a me-too prodcut also BTW. It is of course rather similar to Oly's EP1/2..

G2 and G10....a big dissapointment if you ask me. Indeed nothing really better than the G1 or the NX10. The G10 is worse. SO I agree wth you. JPEG engine of the G1: I personally like it, most don't so I have to agree with you there nevertheless.
 
Well you asked why there is an anti-Samsung sentiment. I just think that it could be the copycat thing. The Japanese companies were the first to do that. That is very innovative again ;-))

The marketplace has changed since the sixties and seventies. Korean companies do not have this market for themselves as the Japanese are already there. So coppying is not enough.

BTW: I do not commend Panasonic for copying other products. I do so because they innovated things(this time). Not that I admire Panasonic. Not at all. The sole reason for them to do so is not that they listened to the customer rather they listened to their sales in the DSLR-market (next to nothing) and had to do something.

And cultural or not: if you are bigmouthing you make people expect some really nice things. Expectations are high. And then you let them down....very smart move indeed...
 
If you review a very popular brand over-negatively you invite the loss of a lot of business and a furious swarm of indignant users. Easier to pick on the new gangly kid, he hasn't enough mates and they are all nerds anyway.

The NX10 is a fine camera and all the nerds over here endorse it (smile).

--
Tom Caldwell
I am always trying ...
 
Neg reviews for the Canon 60D, which is not really any major breakthrough vs the 50D, would cause severe loss of advertisement revenue by angering the company mangement, and also by angeingr fanboys and brand-loyalists (leading to lower site traffic).

yet, they can't just give good scores to everyone. someone's gotta get bad scores. That's going to be the smaller fringe players.

Notice that, when four-thirds was doing poorly, panasonic and olympus cameras all got bad reviews. now that m43 is doing well, they are much better rated. Yet, the ISO performance and overall IQ is not that much better than before...
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oly-oly-oly
 
i wouldn't do it, it would be a tight fit, although it finds it's comfortable place in a small bag i carry with me all the time.
 
streetphoto said:
Neg reviews for the Canon 60D, which is not really any major breakthrough vs the 50D, would cause severe loss of advertisement revenue by angering the company mangement, and also by angeingr fanboys and brand-loyalists (leading to lower site traffic).

yet, they can't just give good scores to everyone. someone's gotta get bad scores. That's going to be the smaller fringe players.

Notice that, when four-thirds was doing poorly, panasonic and olympus cameras all got bad reviews. now that m43 is doing well, they are much better rated. Yet, the ISO performance and overall IQ is not that much better than before...
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oly-oly-oly
Click to expand...
Samsung are a niche camera made by a big firm. It appeals to types like myself who like to see their camera manufacturer taking risks and being innovative. I also have a hankering that the smaller and newer players in the camera sector have to do a bit more for their customers to make it happen for them.

So they are more innovative and their products a bit better built. I liked the NV7 even though it was a work in progress because it was a good camera if flawed. So I could overlook the flaws because what it did well it truly did well. And it was built out of a solid hunk of metal.

I have bought a number of Ricoh cameras simply because Ricoh were innovative, take marketing chances, and they fill niches. They tend to make cameras that are useful for years not months. So the new NX series and the EX read in some ways like Ricoh made by Samsung, but they are different - merely that they appeal to the same thought process.

The NX10 works like and has the user feedback of the original Ricoh GRD and like the GRD gets its share of bricks thrown at it. But I love it because it is simple, sweet and gets the job done. What more do we really want?

So Ricoh had its detractors about noise and poor sensor performance, etc, etc ad nauseum but try and get a good used GRD - these cameras are cult icons and those that have one including myself are not about to surrender them for that mess of pottage.

Must talk up the NX10 - it is one great innovative camera and in years to come owners will be overcome by bouts of nostalgia.

People feel safe with the known names but it was not so long ago that Panasonic was just a microwave company into cameras - (laugh).

Samsung will persist if they wish to do so and having a NX10 sometime in the future

will make some like me all misty eyed at having had the sense to be in on the ground floor enjoying it and not worrying about the reviews.

Back your own judgement and live I say. Otherwise you will live on stewed prunes forever.

--
Tom Caldwell
I am always trying ...
 
well written and thought out post.

I agree. I feel that Nikon and Canon just make updates and charge us twice as much. look at the new Nikon 85mm 1.4. it's a refresh of an older model, and boom! more than double the price. Look at the constant refreshes of the zooms - VR or IS, then VR II or IS II and increase the price. add a few MP and increase the price. I have yet to see anything groundbreaking from them. Sure, CaNikon will always be used by pros. but how many pros buy cameras vs consumers?

It's not sour grapes for me. I have a decent job, and can get the D3s without breaking the bank. But I really want something more innovative for my $4k. If I ever go for a large full frame camera, it'll be the M9.

I feel the same about the NX100 as you do for the NX10. I don't have it yet (arriving Friday), but already I'm very excited. To each their own, but I'm sick of buttons and knobs. I like that the NX100 has minimal buttons, and relegates everything to that great new iFunction lens. Of course, I can get that with NX10, but I really like the LCD screen, and like a small camera. I sold off my canon full frame stuff. My 24-105L, 17-40L, 50 1.4, all gone.

NX100, here I come! If all goes well, before long, I'll also have the 16, 20, 60 macro and 85mm lenses! and maybe the NX20 when it comes out.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oly-oly-oly
 
Jorginho said:
What you are saying here are personal preferences. I have the G1 and I like it very much. I had DSLRs before the G1 and the G1, to me, was much better and not merely a copy. I found the cam a bit smallish for my hands ,but very light and well balanced. I do not understand the problem with the viewfinder...never had a problem with it (nose bleeds?). Regardless of personal preferences, Panasonic had a truely innovative product.

If you look at most reviews, the Panasonic was commended for what it did as a first of a new kind.

Innovations or at least great accomplishements:
  • The screen (!) is/was fantastic. I wonder if you ever used it, because it is simply great. 1.4 million pixels is it (?) and great swiveling
  • The electronic viewfinder is marvelous still the best in class.
  • Fastest CDAF focussing ever by far and unsurpassed afterwards by other brands
  • Excellent liveview
  • Virtual any old lens could be mounted with an adapter and work great, thanks to MF assist also.
  • Of course what it delivered in such a small package, certainly when compared to its DLSR siblings (combo smaller and more light weight)
  • A really good kitlens
  • Good low light performance
  • Most testers were pleased with the ergonomics
Samsung simply copied this one when it comes to shape (DSLR style), when it comes to virtually everything else. The AMOLED is very nice, but does not swivle. The EVF is worse. You cannot use all sorts of manual lenses just like the Panasonic (very flexible). And as I said: despite a APS_c sensor, it does not perform any better. In fact, the noise performance in RAW is worse. Now people may like the Samsung better than the G1. It is taste. But the Samsung is nothing innovative. It is merely following Panny as it is doing now with the NX100. What is the NX100 doing really better than the GF1? Nothing really. Again, people may prefer either, but they are extremely similar. A "me-too" product all the way..ANd the GF1 is a me-too prodcut also BTW. It is of course rather similar to Oly's EP1/2..

G2 and G10....a big dissapointment if you ask me. Indeed nothing really better than the G1 or the NX10. The G10 is worse. SO I agree wth you. JPEG engine of the G1: I personally like it, most don't so I have to agree with you there nevertheless.
Click to expand...
The NX10 isn't innovative, I agree, all that samsung have done is have a thought train that goes something like this:-

The traditional position of viewfinders either impacts on comfort when holding a camera to the face or else it has to stick out to accomodate the nose, the NX10 is attempting to be a "micro" camera so let's move it to the left enough to bypass these problems.

The traditional grip of DSLR's works well for a larger camera but on small cameras is uncomfortable and impacts on the size. The NX10 is attempting to be a "micro" camera so lets's reduce the grip size and redesign it's shape to make it comfortable.

Traditional LCDs are not viewable from an angle and so have to be made with swivelling mechanisms which impact on the size and are only useful for "set piece" type photography. The NX10 is attempting to be a "micro" camera so let's use a different technology to do away with the swivelling design.

External flashes are not elegant so we need to mount an onboard flash, the area that is being used to house the viewfinder would have least impact on the cameras size, as this it attempting to be a "micro" camera let's mount it there.

EVF's, unlike OVF's, are not always viewable through, they need to be switched between EVF and rear screen. Switching manually seriously impacts the useablility of a camera, so let's have a sensor to switch automatically.

There are many other design details that I could list, but the point is that I would much rather see a design trail like this running through a camera's form than "innovation", which more often than not compromise a cameras useablilty and are more about USP's and other marketing nonsense, or so that the camera company can make snazzy adverts.

"Design", to me, means careful, incremental changes to the proven design to make it more useable in newer incarnations (such as EVFs), it does not mean pink or red bodies, or flaunting old fudges and unsuccesful carry-overs from previous technologies, as I see in the G1. This is just my opinion of course, but as I'm the customer they do count, to me at least.

When the G1 came out I was interested, but the choice was either a G1 or a G1. Not surprisingly many people chose....well errr... a G1. I didn't because all they'd done was copy a DSLR and make it smaller, even though they were dealing with a new breed of technology. I hope that I have demonstrated above that the NX10 is a product that has been designed and bears a superficial resemblance to the G1 because the G1 copies DSLR exactly, whereas the NX10 superficially looks similar to one as a nett result of it's design parameters, but there is no doubt in my mind that they converged on a similar form from very different starting points.
 
Thanks for sharing your thoughts about it. The G1 is not ideal, that is for sure.

The point was: why do people dislike Samsung. My answer is that I don't know what other people think, but I can imagine that the me-too atittude is not only dissapointing but also a bit irritating. I also do not like giving wrong impressions, like the way they portrayed the sensorsize difference making look the APS-c sensor twice as big or more than the m43 etc. They blow up the product like it is gods gift to the photographic community, while it is nothing special.

It is not a bad product, it is very good and many users over here seem to be really satisfied. But at least to me, I do not like the things I sense above. EX1 is also such a clear metoo LX3/LX5 product. But at least this one seems to be better than either LX3/LX5...

About Panasonic: I am not too convinced about how good the GH2 (G2/G10 are of no interest) is. I wanted to buy the body of this one. But Panasonic has chosen to up the MXpixels to 18 MP....And they have changed their ISO rating it seems. So it looks like it has gained two stops, but that does not seem to be case. A bit premature of course. Does not look too good though at least not the tricks Panasonic seems to be pulling when it comes to high ISO performance on this one..
Which leaves headroom for Samsung of course (if they use a good APS-c sensor!).
 
Jorginho said:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts about it. The G1 is not ideal, that is for sure.
Which leaves headroom for Samsung of course (if they use a good APS-c sensor!).
Click to expand...
I thank you for taking the time to reply.

The problem for Samsung is that thay perhaps could make a camera with a better sensor in it than the GH2, however it would inevitably be expensive. Would people be willing to pay 1000 for a Samsung?

The sensor in the NX10, I think of like this.

Two friends are out hunting and they startle a Grizzly Bear. They both start running with the bear in angry pursuit. One says the the other, "we'll never outrun this Grizzly Bear" , the other says "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you!"

This was the attitude of the NX10, it just had to be a better sensor than the m43 sensor in the G1, and, although I know you'll disagree, it is better in every regard.

The fact that it has incorporated design features that make reviewers describe it as "likeable" (which is an odd word for a reviewer to use and pretty unique to this cam), and virtually every user is extremely fond of their NX10, is an aside.

Panasonic had the idea but didn't have a photography orientated design force (I mean what on earth is that chrome doing on the grip?) and this is how Samsung have so easily outpaced them.

Let's take the adverts for these cameras as a barometer for the vision behind them. The G1 has a load of parkour types flipping out the 1990's silly LCD screen and girls with a camera to match their coat. NX10 has a beardy type bloke photgraphing stuff on the National Geographic channel. The two companies see their products in two different ways, one is almost a fashion object designed for mass market appeal, and the other is a photographercentric, picture making tool.

Same with their EX1, it just had to outrun the LX5, which IMO it did, in all the areas that the LX5 is strong, the EX1 is stronger.

Panasonic still sell more cameras though, however, they are not very well designed IMO.
 
While I am enjoying some serious photography with my NX-100, my thoughts will be on the next breakthrough, namely perhaps an 'NX-1' as an inevitable Full-Frame successor to the NX-100.
 
I own quite a few cameras - all of which I like, as they were carefully chosen, but I just can't decide about the NX100... I love the lens's control function. I like the sensor. I'm not sure about the grip - or lack of one...

It's hard to find any useful comment about it online, as a lot of what comment there is seems to be sprinkled with anti-Samsung bias. I don't do brand loyalty - I have cameras from Canon, Panasonic, Olympus and Samsung. I bought the EX1/TL500 and am very happy with it, but can't make my mind up about the NX100 - partly because there isn't much useful comment on the web.
 
I'll get my camera on Friday. I'll let you know what I think. I plan to compare to the GF1 and the canon G11.

I also have no brand loyalty. never understood fanboy-ism. for me, these are all just tools to do a job. I don't see any carpenters arguing about Black and Decker vs Stanley tools!

I've used Olympus, Panasonic, Canon, Nikon, Leica, Contax, Konica, Minolta. I just pick the best ones for the job, and I've sold all the rest. Now down to Leica and Contax for film, and Panasonic and Nikon for digital. Samsung on the way. if it's better than GF1, then GF1 gets sold. If not, I'll return NX100 within 30 days.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oly-oly-oly
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Keyboard shortcuts

f
Forum
m
My threads
Mobile site
About
Editorial content
Cameras & Lenses
Community
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1998–2025 Digital Photography Review All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
When you use DPReview links to buy products, the site may earn a commission.
©GPS Media - Guides, Products, Services.
Back
Top