Zeiss 100mm vs Nikon 105

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Anybody compared the Zeiss 100 macro vs Nikon 105 macro. I know the Nikon is AF and Zeiss is manual. What about sharpness? I have read the Zeiss is sharp at all fstops. Thinking of using a lens like this for the video portion on the D7000. Sharpness is important. Any thoughts. Zeiss cine cp primes line up is a big dollar to pay.
 
I rented the 105 VR about seven or eight times in the past, and I finally bought the Zeiss 100mm makro about a year ago. I found the Zeiss lens to be more versatile for my particular needs. It has a very long focus throw for precision macro work, renders colours vibrantly, has excellent micro contrast, and has the most pleasing out of focus highlights. The transition from in focus, to out of focus, is simply put unparalleled. It is amazing for portraiture as well. I am actually using it more than my 85 1.4 AF-D for portraits these days. That's saying something...

Here's a few images. There are plenty more on my website, if you'd like to enjoy more examples.

Peace
Peter

http://www.peteranthonyphotography.com











 
--
. . .
 
There is some misunderstanding in some of the replies so far.

It is close to impossible to get higher sharpness (as in acutance at 10 lpm) than 95% - which the Nikon has into the frame corners of FX

http://imaging.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/lens/specoalpurpose/micro/af-s_vr_micro-nikkor_105mmf_28_if/index.htm

Whilst lenses might have a minor colour cast (generally less than 5 nm) it is decades since there was the colour difference between lenses that you get comparing sRGB (jpeg default and most monitors) to Adobe RGB.

Sure Zeiss put resolution ahead of acutance resulting in a different "look" to the Nikon, but that applies equally to film, or Canon compared to Nikon or Sony.

As a rule of thumb 20% extra resolution in a lens translates to 10% extra resolution on a monitor - because monitor resolution is part sensor and part lens derived - and a monitor costing less than $1000 (maybe even $2000) does not show off lens resolution or colour gamma to it's full potential. Most home printers are similarly limited.

I am not disputing the Zeiss can sometimes out resolve the Nikon at wider apertures (though the Nikon and 12 MP delivers more detail than the eye can resolve in a 14 inch wide print). I am not disputing the Zeiss has different bokeh to the Nikon (which is good) - where the background detracts from the foreground :(

I am disputing (because it is not true) that the Zeiss differences are easily detected in a 20 inch wide print - because they are not.

The Zeiss costs more, is not 1:1, does not AF, does not have VR, and does not get to 2:1 with Nikon converters.

Some will go for the occasional 5% Zeiss advantage despite the trade offs - others will not. My own view is if you are goping to pay Zeiss prices go medium format digital - and improve on even D3s performance with prints wider than 24 inches.
--
Leonard Shepherd

Practicing and thinking can do more for good photography than buying or consuming.
 
The difference between the Zeiss and Nikon 105VR are minimal.

Riccardo's comparison test does indeed demonstrate that the Zeiss is a bit sharper wide open than the 105VR. However, at f/8 the two lenses are pretty much identical...and at f/11, there really is no distinguishable difference.

AS the majority of macro shoots will be in the f/8 to f/16 range, or even beyond...the wide open advantage of the Zeiss is really non applicable.

Both lenses are excellent with MTF figures at optimal apertures over the 2250 level.

Also, as focus stacking is big part of macro these days (and also studio still-life/product shots, etc)...one can simply shoot in the optimal range (ie: f5/6-f/8) with either lens and obtain almost identical results.

Here's a few of my recent stacked images taken with the Nikon 105VR
http://kvincentphotography.ca/stackedimages

I personally, prefer the Nikon colour-cast to the Zeiss. I find the Zeiss to have a yellow-ish, tepid ambience to it. This is obviously individual taste...as is bokeh, also of course.

The Zeiss is 1:2, whilst the Nikon is 1:1

I've seen very good portrait shots taken with both lenses.

IF I was looking to buy another macro at the same price level as the Zeiss...I would purchase the Nikon 85mm PC-E, which is also 1:2, MF, and has the same IQ performance, plus of course the T/S capability, which would be an advantage over the Zeiss for extended DOF shots, etc.

KEV
 
There is some misunderstanding in some of the replies so far.
I'll say ...yours is a doosie.
Some will go for the occasional 5% Zeiss advantage despite the trade offs - others will not. My own view is if you are goping to pay Zeiss prices go medium format digital - and improve on even D3s performance with prints wider than 24 inches.
Any chance I could get the math for this 5% (insert nose growing long emoticon here).
 
Anybody compared the Zeiss 100 macro vs Nikon 105 macro. I know the Nikon is AF and Zeiss is manual. What about sharpness? I have read the Zeiss is sharp at all fstops. Thinking of using a lens like this for the video portion on the D7000. Sharpness is important. Any thoughts. Zeiss cine cp primes line up is a big dollar to pay.
Get the zeiss and you can get these macro boys to tell you all about it.

They keep telling us its not 1:1 and not AF ...way back a one-eyed macro photog ran a thread called something like ARE THEY REALLY NOT AF...??

...serious it was a macro shooter, they tell us all about f8 and smaller ...I dont even know where f8 is ...Oh wait, its on the other side of the barrel.

...you can have them for a while and it seems you already do ;)

You might have seen it but here http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8rgcc_zeiss-zf-lenses-from-cinevate_tech

There is a nice little bit of work here http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=36403601 but I haven't seen anything here for ages.

The ZFs were touted as a still/video bridge rather than cine, They are often modified with the focus gear and I see them for sale as sets after a production ends.

I found this recently on a gear maker in the US http://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10316&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30 and I have heard of a firm that can de-click the ZF aperture ring. This is a really good forum for info as well, maybe a better place for you to look and ask.
 
HI!

Well, all this talk about sharpness, MTF's etc. were not among the real reasons that I bought the Zeiss 100/2 instead of the Nikon 105

1) I liked the option of having f/2 instead of f/2.8:

2) The Zeiss is a little smaller (not much).

3) I thought it would be fun having a MF lens that has a really nice feel to the manual focus. I much preferr it to the 105VR.

4) I was intrigued as to what all the fuss was that some folks made over the Zeiss 100/2

5) My wife had just purchased a handbag at a price close to that of the Zeiss 100/2.

6) For this particular lens, not having 1:1, VR, and AF-s were not big considerations, at least for me.

I would never pretend that I paid extra for better line pair resolution. Heck, most of my pictures are more limited by my technique (or lack thereof) than any differences between the Zeiss 100/2 and the Nikon 105VR.

However I believe that I have have more justification for spending money on a lens than a bunch of handbags!:



Best egards,

RB

http://www.pbase.com/rbfresno/profile
 
There is some misunderstanding in some of the replies so far.
I think I have to give some additional information about my tests.

First, my tests were aimed to evaluate real life images and I did not intend to measure absolute resolution figures. I use lenses to take pictures and not to get numbers.

Being the happy owner of the three lenses I tested (105 VR, 85 PC & 100/2 ZF) I wished to share my "subjective" evaluations about those lenses with the many people who visit my website. I put 100% crops to substantiate my subjective evaluations and to ask people different opinions if they feel that my conclusions were not sound.

I scrutinized the NEF files and I draw my conclusions on the IQ of the three lenses by looking at files on my calibrated LaCie monitor. My long lasting experience as Nikon user (I've used tens of Nikkor lenses in my life, and all 105 Nikkor lenses but 105 DC) and editor of photographic magazines helped me in evaluating as critically as possible my findings.

Due to obvious reasons, I had to publish in my webpage the jpegs of the files obtained by using 105 VR, 85 PC and 100/2.

The jpegs were obtained by NEF files using NX2 (quality 100). The differences in IQ were a little bit flattened by jpeg conversion.

According to many shots I've analyzed using different apertures and different magnifications (from 1:2 to infinity), I am convinced that the Zeiss 100/2 produces better images than 105 VR. The images produced by the Zeiss are "cleaner", with a biting clarity that the 105 VR is not able to produce (this doesn't mean that the 105 VR cannot produce excellent 14 in, wide prints).

And the 85 PC is optically better than 105 VR and almost as good as 100/2 ZF (which is a f/2 lens!).

When we are comparing first class lenses, we are not disputing if the Zeiss differences are easily detectable in a 20 inch wide print or not. Nobody said that, and I guess Leonard Shepherd has never compared two 20 inch wide prints of the same subject, taken with the same camera and with 100/2 ZF and 105 VR.
He "supposed" there is no visible difference.
But let's assume he's right. This does demonstrate nothing.
We/he forgot that I wished to compare three first-class macro lenses.

As always, to manufacture a 1 stop faster macro lens with better performance than a very good macro lens (like 105 VR) implies significantly higher costs.

If we don't think these costs are justified, well this means that the faster and more expensive lens is not the one we need.
Now, it is clear that f/2 aperture is a plus for a medium telephoto lens .

It's important for portraiture, otherwise why Nikon and Canon produced and continue producing f/2 portrait lenses (105 DC, 135 DC, EF 100/2, EF-L 135/2) ??

In fact, I bought the ZF 100/2 not to replace my 105 VR, but to replace my AIS 105/1.8 ...

It's also clear that f/2 aperture allows getting a brighter image in the viewfinder, and a brighter image in the viewfinder is important when focusing carefully a macro picture . Isn't it?
It's also clear that most of the times we use MF in macro photography. Right?

Well, a state-of-the-art focusing ring helps a lot. I find that using LV and MF with my (faster) 100/2 ZF is much better than with my 105 VR.

The ZF is 1:2. And so what? you can get 1:1 with PN-11 (with the additional bonus of a tripod collar!) or you can get 1:1.3 with a Canon 500D close-up filter.

Therefore, the lack of 1:1 doesn't mean that you can't get it in a easy and even more comfortable way (thanks to the tripod collar of PN-11) .

Last but not least, a MF 100/2 macro lens built like a tank will last many many years maintaining a constant performance. I'm not sure a AFS VR lens will last for a life without any need of service ...

Best,

Riccardo
 
I am disputing (because it is not true) that the Zeiss differences are easily detected in a 20 inch wide print - because they are not.
If we compare the AFS 200/2 VR to AF ED 180/2.8, probably we conclude that the former is better. And I am pretty sure that some guy in a Forum would say, by recalling resolution figures and MTF data: "you can't see any difference in a 20 in. wide print from a 12 MP file ..."
The Zeiss costs more, is not 1:1, does not AF, does not have VR, and does not get to 2:1 with Nikon converters.
2:1 photography with 105VR+TC20E is not recommended because the resulting IQ is not good according to my standards (I rate IQ using TC14-E as "sufficient" at most). I prefer using other technical approaches to get 2:1 (e.g. AF 60/2.8 + PN-11, or a reversed 28 mm lens).
 
It is close to impossible to get higher sharpness (as in acutance at 10 lpm) than 95% - which the Nikon has into the frame corners of FX

http://imaging.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/lens/specoalpurpose/micro/af-s_vr_micro-nikkor_105mmf_28_if/index.htm
First, the blue lines are in that graph for a reason. And second, the red dashed line is in that graph for a reason, too (though I have to agree that it stays up there at 0.95 very far into the corners)...

Now, that said, I have the 105/2.8 VR and think it's amazing. But I dislike the use of shady arguments in support of that conclusion...
 
The red bag, third one from the left right at the bottom, what bag is that?
HI!

Well, all this talk about sharpness, MTF's etc. were not among the real reasons that I bought the Zeiss 100/2 instead of the Nikon 105

1) I liked the option of having f/2 instead of f/2.8:

2) The Zeiss is a little smaller (not much).

3) I thought it would be fun having a MF lens that has a really nice feel to the manual focus. I much preferr it to the 105VR.

4) I was intrigued as to what all the fuss was that some folks made over the Zeiss 100/2

5) My wife had just purchased a handbag at a price close to that of the Zeiss 100/2.

6) For this particular lens, not having 1:1, VR, and AF-s were not big considerations, at least for me.

I would never pretend that I paid extra for better line pair resolution. Heck, most of my pictures are more limited by my technique (or lack thereof) than any differences between the Zeiss 100/2 and the Nikon 105VR.

However I believe that I have have more justification for spending money on a lens than a bunch of handbags!:



Best egards,

RB

http://www.pbase.com/rbfresno/profile
 
The ZF is 1:2. And so what? you can get 1:1 with PN-11 (with the additional bonus of a tripod collar!) or you can get 1:1.3 with a Canon 500D close-up filter.
Best,

Riccardo
So what? Hmm...... sorry the PN-11 adds another 150-200€ to this lens when you buy it used. New it is even more expensive.

As an experienced nature shooter you know that being quick is very important when shooting insects out in the field. Most small insects have long flown away while you are searching for your PN-11 in the bag and mounting it to your lens.

The zeiss might be ok for flowers when you have enough time to set up the shot but not for shooting insects most of the time. In this case it is more important to get the shot at all than a very small difference in image quality.

I might buy the Voigtländer Lanthar if it ever becomes available again but not the Zeiss.

Regards
Lilgish
 
So what? Hmm...... sorry the PN-11 adds another 150-200€ to this lens when you buy it used.
I bought mine in Mint conditions from Grays of Westminster. I paid £ 137 + shipping.

This is more or less the price of the Canon tripod collar for EF-L 100/2.8 IS Macro. The PN-11 gives you tripod collar AND extension ;-)

Moreover, the PN-11 resale value is high. So you can always sell it and get the same amount of money you paid.

Consider that PN-11 fits a whole set of Nikon lenses. I use it with AF 60/2.8D, AF ED 200/4, etc.
So it's a bargain for a Nikon macro photographer, IMO.
Here is mine, with ArcaSwiss-like plate by RRS:


New it is even more expensive.
I bought it used. Twice. And it is often available at GoW.
As an experienced nature shooter you know that being quick is very important when shooting insects out in the field. Most small insects have long flown away while you are searching for your PN-11 in the bag and mounting it to your lens.
As a nature photographer, I prefer using a tripod to shoot at larger than 1:2 magnifications. Positioning a tripod in the field at the ground level or so to shoot shy animals, requires much more time and caution than just mount an extension tube or a TC. Anyway, when I plan to take pictures of insects in the field:

1) I wake up very early in the morning to try shooting them when they are quiet and not flying/moving,

2) I take always also my AF ED 200/4 (and not AFS 105 VR) for its larger working distance and for the better subject isolation it permits,

3) I take always both D300 and D700, the former being useful to fill more the frame (D300 is the best 1.5X converter :D).
I might buy the Voigtländer Lanthar if it ever becomes available again but not the Zeiss.
I might buy the CV 125/2.5 too, since it's a true Apo design and doesn't show LoCA in out-of-focus areas as ZF 100/2 does at wider apertures.

However, at present it's a very rare lens to find in the second-hand market, and its price is higher than the price of ZF.2 100/2. But I don't care; if Cosina will not start producing it again, I'll continue using my ZF :-)

Best,

Riccardo
 
Anybody compared the Zeiss 100 macro vs Nikon 105 macro. I know the Nikon is AF and Zeiss is manual. What about sharpness? I have read the Zeiss is sharp at all fstops. Thinking of using a lens like this for the video portion on the D7000. Sharpness is important. Any thoughts. Zeiss cine cp primes line up is a big dollar to pay.
I a-b compared them (Nikon 85 & 105 micro vs Zeiss 100 Macro) - NO CONTEST = Zeiss all the way.

I'd suggest the Tokina 100mm Macro, or the Tamron 90mm Macro over the Nikon - if the superb but pricey Zeiss 100mm f2.0 Macro is beyond the budget.

Try them all for yourself at your dealer on your camera, & then decide.

Cheers.
--
Vaya con Dios
imo
(c) 2010 fastglass
 
Most people will tell you to buy the Zeiss lens because it's optically superior. While this is true in a laboratory environment, the real-world use may make a difference, besides the price which is twice as high for the Zeiss lens, compared to the Nikon 105VR.

I have got Zeiss lenses by the way (21mm ZF.2 and 25mmm ZF) but in this case, I don't feel much need to switch from the 105VR that I bought in 2006 to the Makro Planar and here's why:

1. The Nikon has VR which helps sometimes, although accurate macro shots certainly require a tripod.

2. The Nikon has Autofocus which is pretty fast an accurate when you use the focus limiter switch. This is very helpful if you are using the lens for other tasks than just macro.

3. The Nikon lens is fully encapsulated and sealed and has a constant length. The Zeiss, on the other hand, has a duo-cam focusing mechanism, i.e. there are TWO concentric cylinders protruding out of the lens barrel when you focus at close distances. In the studio, this is no big deal but in dirty outdoor environments this does really matter. Alone this advantage is enough to keep me loyal to the Nikon lens.

Note that (3) doesn't come without caveats: the internal focusing is only possible with a floating-element design which shortens the focal length at close ranges. This means that the framing changes while focusing at short distances. This could be a problem for some use cases.

In summary however, the 105VR has proven to be a trusted friend, producing repeatable and controllable results of high quality.
 

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