Are all TN panels worthless for photo-editing, even LED?

Bas Hamstra · Oct 6, 2010

I have 2 questions, at the end of the message, an intro first. Monitor died after 8 years, got a new one within 1 hour (Acer S221HQL, full HD, 22" LED). Since then I learned that I have got a TN panel. The supposed order for color accuracy is:

Best panel: x-IPS
Medium: PVA
Low: TN (something to do with 6 bit color)

Prices reflect this somewhat. I intend to get a used monitor now, preferrably s-IPS and 19inch 4:3 (non-wide). And now my questions:

Are all TN panels bad for PP, even the LED ones?
Is there any point and/or possibility calibrating it?

Best regards,

Bas

photofan1986 · Oct 6, 2010

I think that there are some good Led or even LCd screens, and that the technology can produce very accurate colors. The problem doesn't come from colours but from viewing angles. A TN screen will have a dead angle at the bottom, which will affect the way the light nuances are seen. But you could have a IPS screen that has good viewing angles and bad color rendition.

And of course, a TN screen can be calibrated. For instance, I am using a modest Samsung T220, calibrated, and it is quite good, even for editing. The only real drawback are the low viewing angles, as always with TN screens. LED are somewhat better, however.

Puppy2007 · Oct 6, 2010

Yes, TN is pretty outdated technology regardless of any marketing fluff like "LED backlight" (no influence on quality) or "1000000000:1 contrast ratio" (false, 500:1 at the best) or "1 ms response time" (false, 12 ms at the best) attempting to sell the crappy technology. IOW:

TN + CCFL backlight = crap
TN + LED backlight = crap
TN + any blah blah = crap
x-IPS (NEC or Eizo) + any backlight = quality
S-PVA (NEC or Eizo) + any backlight = quality

Most of high-end LCD panels still relies on W-CCFL rather than LED backlight. A technology which improves backlight uniformity (NEC: X-Light, Eizo: DUE) is also important.

Lloydy · Oct 6, 2010

... I have two TN panels, both 22 inch. One is a Samsung 2233 BW (18 mo) and the other a LG W2242S (6 mo).

Both are properly calibrated, and they are easy to calibrate. I use both for photo editing and they are fine for that purpose.

The Samsung is better than the LG, but only slightly. It gives a slightly smoother tonal gradation.

However, I mostly use the LG. Simply because it is setup on my new machine and I am too lazy to swap them around

Cheers.
--
Rgds, Dave.
Have fun - take lotsa pix.

http://eyemindsoul.blogspot.com/

Puppy2007 · Oct 6, 2010

Just to clarify, all TN panels are always 6-bit only regardless of any marketing materials saying anything else. Moreover TN panels uses dithering technology to mimic more colors by switching two closer colors. The visual effect of it is sometimes very disturbing. These "magic" short response times are done by aggresive overdrive affecing the picture quality as well.

If you are looking for cheap alternative, there are "economy editions" of x-IPS and S-PVA technologies called E-IPS and C-PVA. The quality is not in par with their "parents" but still far better than any TN panel.

Examples are Dell UltraSharp 2209WA and Samsung SyncMaster F2380.

Lloydy · Oct 6, 2010

... A fairly simple way to calibrate your monitor, is to follow the steps at the link below :

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/

Cheers.
--
Rgds, Dave.
Have fun - take lotsa pix.

http://eyemindsoul.blogspot.com/

Puppy2007 · Oct 6, 2010

Bas Hamstra said:
Best panel: x-IPS
Medium: PVA

Actually it isn't that easy. Both x-IPS and S-PVA delivers excellent results with proper driver electronics and backlight uniformity control technology. Currently NEC and Eizo are the only companies producing serious monitors. NEC tends to prefer H-IPS while Eizo S-PVA ones but both companies offers both technologies. Also notice that most of "office-like" monitors are very overbrighted with brightness setting at 0%. Good monitors starts at ~ 40 cd/m2. In short:

Best panels: x-IPS or PVA inside NEC or Eizo

Medium panels: x-IPS or PVA inside office monitors like Dell, HP, LG, Samsung etc.

As for the lovely 4:3 ratio I'm on you side

Unfortunately it is over and getting a panel with 1200 vertical pixels is becoming rare as well. I own 20" NEC 2090UXi (1600x1200 A-TW-IPS panel) and hope it will work forever ;-)

Bas Hamstra · Oct 6, 2010

Almost got an Eizo used for 100EUR until I learned it was 8 years old, and was advised by techies to leave it alone. Too old, they DO wear out. Note that it's not only EIZO and NEC that have IPS: also HP, LG, Dell, Philips. Possibly Samsung.

Anyway it makes no sense spending on photogear and having a substandard monitor, I have a new 350EUR S-IPS screen on my radar now. They do exist. Also I see a couple used for around 100EUR, but mostly age is unknown or too old.

So, yes, I tend to agree with you. I can get my TN-panel to look reasonable, BTW, but reasonable is not enough for me.

Best regards,

Bas

Puppy2007 said:
Yes, TN is pretty outdated technology regardless of any marketing fluff like "LED backlight" (no influence on quality) or "1000000000:1 contrast ratio" (false, 500:1 at the best) or "1 ms response time" (false, 12 ms at the best) attempting to sell the crappy technology. IOW:

TN + CCFL backlight = crap
TN + LED backlight = crap
TN + any blah blah = crap
x-IPS (NEC or Eizo) + any backlight = quality
S-PVA (NEC or Eizo) + any backlight = quality

Most of high-end LCD panels still relies on W-CCFL rather than LED backlight. A technology which improves backlight uniformity (NEC: X-Light, Eizo: DUE) is also important.

Bas Hamstra · Oct 6, 2010

I don't understand fully but it seems all TN panels have 6 bit color and can therefore not ever be totally color accurate. There are quite some folks that say they never knew something was missing, until they got their EIZO, btw, and I don't think that's snobbery.

My monitor looks reasonable after tweaking, but I can spot some werid things, like it's impossible to get a fully saturated orange. No calibrating in the world can help there, I'm afraid. Maybe I should give calibration a try and see if I can live with it.

Bas

Lloydy said:
... I have two TN panels, both 22 inch. One is a Samsung 2233 BW (18 mo) and the other a LG W2242S (6 mo).

Both are properly calibrated, and they are easy to calibrate. I use both for photo editing and they are fine for that purpose.

The Samsung is better than the LG, but only slightly. It gives a slightly smoother tonal gradation.

However, I mostly use the LG. Simply because it is setup on my new machine and I am too lazy to swap them around

Cheers.
--
Rgds, Dave.
Have fun - take lotsa pix.

http://eyemindsoul.blogspot.com/

ukmick · Oct 6, 2010

Ive asked a similar question before as I am having to keep my 21" CRT monitor to use with my wide format printer! I've looked at the NEC monitors, but they are too expensive. See if you can still pickup a CRT monitor which will be 4:3, they should be dirt cheap as no one wants them!

Bas Hamstra · Oct 6, 2010

I understand they wear out over time, backlight gets fainter, or can break. I was warned for this.

I would really like to try one used, what's a reasonable age limit for buying used? Forget it if older than 3 years (say average use)?

So for the moment I'm thinking of either a used EIZO or a S-IPS HP (350EUR new).

Bas

Puppy2007 said:
Bas Hamstra said:

Best panel: x-IPS
Medium: PVA

Click to expand...

Actually it isn't that easy. Both x-IPS and S-PVA delivers excellent results with proper driver electronics and backlight uniformity control technology. Currently NEC and Eizo are the only companies producing serious monitors. NEC tends to prefer H-IPS while Eizo S-PVA ones but both companies offers both technologies. Also notice that most of "office-like" monitors are very overbrighted with brightness setting at 0%. Good monitors starts at ~ 40 cd/m2. In short:

Best panels: x-IPS or PVA inside NEC or Eizo

Medium panels: x-IPS or PVA inside office monitors like Dell, HP, LG, Samsung etc.

As for the lovely 4:3 ratio I'm on you side Unfortunately it is over and getting a panel with 1200 vertical pixels is becoming rare as well. I own 20" NEC 2090UXi (1600x1200 A-TW-IPS panel) and hope it will work forever ;-)

Bas Hamstra · Oct 6, 2010

Good for colors maybe, but I could never go back to those immense monsters... It would take half of my desk...!

Bas

ukmick said:
Ive asked a similar question before as I am having to keep my 21" CRT monitor to use with my wide format printer! I've looked at the NEC monitors, but they are too expensive. See if you can still pickup a CRT monitor which will be 4:3, they should be dirt cheap as no one wants them!

Bas Hamstra · Oct 6, 2010

Yes Dave, I used them in the past with my old monitor. But it had good colors to begin with, when colors are off, these sites won't help a lot. It's mostly about correct gamma and brightness levels. Hardware calibration (Spyder, Huey etc) will also adjust colors, I might rent one for a day.

Bas

Lloydy said:
... A fairly simple way to calibrate your monitor, is to follow the steps at the link below :

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/

Cheers.
--
Rgds, Dave.
Have fun - take lotsa pix.

http://eyemindsoul.blogspot.com/

Puppy2007 · Oct 6, 2010

Bas Hamstra said:
I would really like to try one used, what's a reasonable age limit for buying used?
Forget it if older than 3 years (say average use)?

Buying a used one is always a risk. It depends on total hours usage. For example my NEC is almost four years old running ~ 14 hours / day. I don't see any changes in picture quality or brightness level/uniformity but I use very low brightness setting all the time. Another problem of some LCD panels is "image-sticking" http://www.behardware.com/art/imprimer/615/ the panel might be more sensitive in time.

I'd rather consider buying a new one with E-IPS or C-PVA panel.

Kim Letkeman · Oct 6, 2010

photofan1986 said:
I think that there are some good Led or even LCd screens, and that the technology can produce very accurate colors. The problem doesn't come from colours but from viewing angles. A TN screen will have a dead angle at the bottom, which will affect the way the light nuances are seen. But you could have a IPS screen that has good viewing angles and bad color rendition.

You are in serious need of an education on that ...

TN panels dither to get 32 bit color ... or an approximation of same. They do not have the potential to be calibrated. The viewing angle issue is more than an annoyance ... 160degrees is terrible ... there are specific tests on lagom.nl to show you how bad.

photofan1986 said:
And of course, a TN screen can be calibrated.

You can run the software,yes. But there is no way that you will see accurate gamma, white point and black point after calibration. The technology is not up to it.

photofan1986 said:
For instance, I am using a modest Samsung T220, calibrated, and it is quite good, even for editing. The only real drawback are the low viewing angles, as always with TN screens. LED are somewhat better, however.

No, it is not. I have an acer alongside my NEC ... no contest, never in a million years.

Read up on it ... TN is junk.

--
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
http://letkeman.net/Photos

Kim Letkeman · Oct 6, 2010

Bas Hamstra said:
Best panel: x-IPS
Medium: PVA
Low: TN (something to do with 6 bit color)

IPS is best for sure ... and Viewsonic is making some decent ones at low prices these days. Apple cinema monitors are IPS.

PVA and MVA are in the middle, but my MVA calibrates beautifully.

TN is junk ... plain and simple. Dithered color and terrible viewing angles make it impossible to be calibrated accurately.

Bas Hamstra said:
Are all TN panels bad for PP, even the LED ones?

Junk.

Bas Hamstra said:
Is there any point and/or possibility calibrating it?

I have tried many times ... it never comes close when testing against the lagom.nl site.

My conclusion is that it is not worth the effort. It makes you feel good but remains wrong.

Get the latest IPS technologt ... something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/ViewSonic-VP2365WB-23-Inch-IPS-Monitor/dp/B002R0JJYO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1286430641&sr=8-1

--
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
http://letkeman.net/Photos

Kim Letkeman · Oct 6, 2010

ukmick said:
Ive asked a similar question before as I am having to keep my 21" CRT monitor to use with my wide format printer! I've looked at the NEC monitors, but they are too expensive. See if you can still pickup a CRT monitor which will be 4:3, they should be dirt cheap as no one wants them!

The latest Viewsonics look promising ...

http://www.amazon.com/ViewSonic-VP2365WB-23-Inch-IPS-Monitor/dp/B002R0JJYO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1286430641&sr=8-1

--
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
http://letkeman.net/Photos

Kim Letkeman · Oct 6, 2010

Lloydy said:
... I have two TN panels, both 22 inch. One is a Samsung 2233 BW (18 mo) and the other a LG W2242S (6 mo).

Junk.

Lloydy said:
Both are properly calibrated, and they are easy to calibrate. I use both for photo editing and they are fine for that purpose.

TN cannot successfully be calibrated. The software runs, even completes, but the results are no good for photography.

You will find zero (0) credible web sites that recommend TN panels for photography.

Lloydy said:
The Samsung is better than the LG, but only slightly. It gives a slightly smoother tonal gradation.

Makes no difference ...

Lloydy said:
However, I mostly use the LG. Simply because it is setup on my new machine and I am too lazy to swap them around

Doesn't make any difference. Use whichever. But when you can find one, graab a new Viewsonic IPS panel ... they are inexpensive and will clobber any TN panel ...

--
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
http://letkeman.net/Photos

PAUL TILL · Oct 6, 2010

Bas Hamstra said:
I have 2 questions, at the end of the message, an intro first. Monitor died after 8 years, got a new one within 1 hour (Acer S221HQL, full HD, 22" LED). Since then I learned that I have got a TN panel. The supposed order for color accuracy is:

Best panel: x-IPS
Medium: PVA
Low: TN (something to do with 6 bit color)

My 2 cents on this:

If you are not into PP or only resize and sharpen your images stick with your TN panel.

If you are into PP and more importantly on the FTF you are going to comment or criticise other peoples pictures you should be using nothing less than an IPS panel.

Paul.

Kim Letkeman · Oct 6, 2010

Bas Hamstra said:
I don't understand fully but it seems all TN panels have 6 bit color and can therefore not ever be totally color accurate. There are quite some folks that say they never knew something was missing, until they got their EIZO, btw, and I don't think that's snobbery.

My monitor looks reasonable after tweaking, but I can spot some werid things, like it's impossible to get a fully saturated orange. No calibrating in the world can help there, I'm afraid. Maybe I should give calibration a try and see if I can live with it.

I think you take your photography more seriously than that ... it's not just color accuracy ... it's white point and black point and of course the infamous 160 degree viewing angle ... which makes the panels seem random ...

--
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
http://letkeman.net/Photos

Are all TN panels worthless for photo-editing, even LED?

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