Sony is behaving badly

Yes, it is great that Sony is providing a firmware revision and is responsive to user feedback. But this revision reveals that Sony purposely cripples a camera for marketing reasons.

I am a Sony fan, own the NEX 5 and use it a lot for video, mostly handheld candids of real life. One NEX video I shot got over 13,500 views on Vimeo, and two were selected as videos highlighting HD in Vimeo groups. These were not "examples", or "tests". The NEX does pretty well.

I was appalled, however, at the auto algorithims for video - holding open the aperture in bright daylight so that shutter speeds were way too high for video, even with an ND filter. I gave Sony the benefit of the doubt that there was some technical reason that manual control during video of aperture or shutter or gain was infeasible.

Well now it is clear that what manual control we get is just a marketing decision. They have now given us aperture control for video, so it is not technically infeasible to have control for video.

So, indeed, why not shutter and gain control also? This is NOT asking for an add-on feature "for free" (give me a better flash, or a standard adaptor) - this is just a programming change, evidently. The NEX 5 is still intentionally crippled.

The NEX "video camera" has manual control for all aspects of video. My guess is that the NEX 5 could do 24Mbps as well as that camera. There is no good excuse for full manual control.

So, I am more fed up after this firmwware announcement than before. I am not going to throw the camera away, not upgrade or stop using it or buy an m43, but I would be disappointed by users overlooking or defending this crippling (be grateful for what you get!...).

I would like also to have full manual control in movie mode, but then who would buy their videocamera?
Of course they can give us manual control but they dont want to.

By the way, in low light shots, with my canon 50mm 1.4 + eos adapter, i managed to have low iso (3db = 400 iso) and low speed (about 40-60) .

Thats ok, i will try tomorrow outside with strong nd filter (.9 or 1.2)

The following is not in defense of Sony but the realities are that every vendor cripples their products intentionally. This started with computers and has continued into everything that uses computers. A vendor will engineer and design a particular computer and then to differentiate various models introduce crippling (slowing down the clock) or other firmware/software changes to allow for various tiers and then create minor cosmetic differences. Look at the NEX 3 versus the NEX 5, etc.

Frankly, I don't have a problem with this because I understand that to actually create different models where the hardware was significantly different would mean more development costs, high support costs and ultimately a higher price to me as the consumer. Look at what hacking the Panasonic G1 can get out of performance. Vendors are not motivated to offer the optimal capability as it costs too much in time and development costs. In a perfect world this wouldn't happen.
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People quickly forget that software isn't free. Just because it doesn't require a physical change to the camera doesn't mean they implemented adjustable aperture during video in an afternoon. Writing good, reliability software takes time and money, and testing it takes more time and money. I'm sure they were on a deadline to ship the camera, they've probably spent the last couple months since v2 shipped working on these features.

Could they implement more manual video controls on the NEX? Probably so, but they may never do it. Eventually they have to stop investing in the currently version and move their software folks to the next camera. Also, they could argue that if you really need excellent video controls you should purchase the more expensive NEX-VG10.

Every manufacturer does it, it's commercial reality if they sell a range of products. Olympus did it with the E-PL1 by leaving out ISO6400 and 1/4000 sec (not that ISO6400 is much use with current MFT sensors anyway!)

Always choose a product for what it is, not for what it might be with a firmware upgrade.

Well all this leads me to 1 question....
When will someone Jailbreak the Sony NEX Camera!???!!??!!

This is exactly the point: they should treat this as a computing platform. The iPhone has new models every year but they continue to issue new software that support all platforms and new features are supported on the old platform when the hardware allows it. This level of commitment is what makes people become extremely loyal to the brand and to the platform.

Be careful and warned all camera makers: Apple has already implemented HDR in the latest iPhone - if you are not loyal to your customers, somebody else might eat your lunch one day...

In the mean time I am getting a NEX-5. Thanks to Sony for being loyal for the time being.

Sinorm wrote:

... Eventually they have to stop investing in the currently version and move their software folks to the next camera. .

Well, all of the seemingly reasonable statements that crippling is a common practice are totally incapable of explaining why Sony in fact slightly un crippled the NEX. Why did they do that? why aperture control and not shutter control?

Obviously they did it for "commercial reasons" too. But you know, they can make bad commercial decisons. Like the control software of the camera, and also the lack of manual video on what is supposed to be a sophisticated camera.

Some people give DPreview's review as a reason for Sony's software revisions. Perhaps if the review emphasized video more, and the total lack of control and the bad auto-mode video programming we would have had a better revision.

As long as consumers are passive about crippling, we will get more of it. Now that Sony is showing signs of responsiveness, additional reasonable complaints are in order.

Markr041 said:

Well, all of the seemingly reasonable statements that crippling is a common practice are totally incapable of explaining why Sony in fact slightly un crippled the NEX. Why did they do that? why aperture control and not shutter control?

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Sometimes manufacturers panic. NEX 3 & 5 still have some way to go before being replaced, I guess Sony calculated they might lose sales in the meantime. To me, the interface improvements are a spectacular U-turn brought about by almost universal criticism in the media. A very rare U-turn indeed to rework the firmware to that degree.

Good point, and point of view.

For smartphones, the hottest electronic devices, adding features over time to old and new models - software (firmware) revisions - is now the norm. Some phone companies cripple features. Anyone like phone companies?

Sony could start a trend, improve brand loyalty and - charge more! This was in fact their original business model: innovate and provide features no one else had, and charge a lot for it.

Guys, don't forget this went from prototype to product in a very small time. It's possible they didn't include these controls to begin with because their implementations were buggy. We're far more tolerant of software/firmware immaturity on iPhones.

Why do you defend them thinking like them? they're the multi-billionaire company that won't have any economical damage by putting a couple of features into the cams. You and the rest are the ones who will be frustrated by the lack of control on video and your limited budget.

Perhaps if they wanted to sell their also crippled VG10, they could at least include.

Native 24p option
Higher bitrate codec, like h264 at 35mbps at least
True 60p/50p for smooth motion
RAW support for pictures
Audio control

That would make a difference.
All they have is 30p trapped in a 60i crappy wrap.

Come on.

Give the NEX3/5 shutter and ISO control and they would be playing fair.

They're naive enough not realizing the fact that their crippled VG10 has already stiff competition like the new GH2/GH1Tester13/5D Mark II/7D.

When will Sony learn?

They also have the crippled video mode on the A33/A55

They're so afraid of this big sensor video camera revolution that they think if they put good video on their cams that would take the sells of the higher grade video cameras.

People working with semipro/pro video cameras won't look at the cheaper big sensor cams unless they have to, they have lots of control with the pro cams so eventually if they want to choose a cheaper big sensor cam, they will, and if Sony is offering fair, they will gladly take the Canon 5D Mark II (which already has lots of features) or the GH2/GH1. There's no brand loyalty when you're a pro, there's quality loyalty, I guess they didn't teach that to the marketing people in Sony.

toxotis700 said:

I would like also to have full manual control in movie mode, but then who would buy their videocamera?
Of course they can give us manual control but they dont want to.

By the way, in low light shots, with my canon 50mm 1.4 + eos adapter, i managed to have low iso (3db = 400 iso) and low speed (about 40-60) .

Thats ok, i will try tomorrow outside with strong nd filter (.9 or 1.2)

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, this practice is rather common. If you think Sony is bad, you might want to take a look at my Canon T1i (500d) with no aperture or shutter-speed control override. The only control I have is over White Balancing.

Canon 500d has all the electronic necessary for full control over HD movie. But canon didn't want the cheap 500d to threaten their expensive Canon 5D MKII , Canon 7d, or the newer Canon 550d (T2i).

Panasonic is doing the same thing. GF1/GH1 is listed as 720p HD only, but you can applied a firmware hack to unlock the full 1080p HD Video. So capability is there all along, but for marketing reason, it is restricted.

Camera, like cellphones, need to be "ROOTED" or "JAILBREAK" to unlock its full potential. Sony firmware is quite an upgrade. I'm far more impressed by Sony's willingness than canon. Canon T1i (500d) is getting old, we still don't have a firmware upgrade to unlock more HD video options. Canon want us to buy the T2i

We all have a choice to buy or not. I would like them to give me full featured products however if the product they offer doesn't meet the requirements I have, I simply won't buy it.
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Good for you! But what large-sensor camera offers full manual control of 1080 video for far less than $1000? So, you end up with nothing, or spending a lot more for features you do not need.

And Sony shows signs of responding to consumer interests. It's a new game, given how relatively cheap (not free) it is to just change firmware and transform a camera to a real videographers tool in a small package.

That is different, the model was replaced was quickly replaced for a better one, you don't see any replacement of the NEXs with equivalent controls, do you?

The T2i is $700 street, you can sell your T1i and get it.

Panasonic offers a real alternative the GH1 is constantly cheaper and offers a wide array of controls.

The VG10 is pretty crippled for its $ 2000 asking price.

007peter said:

Unfortunately, this practice is rather common. If you think Sony is bad, you might want to take a look at my Canon T1i (500d) with no aperture or shutter-speed control override. The only control I have is over White Balancing.

Canon 500d has all the electronic necessary for full control over HD movie. But canon didn't want the cheap 500d to threaten their expensive Canon 5D MKII , Canon 7d, or the newer Canon 550d (T2i).

Panasonic is doing the same thing. GF1/GH1 is listed as 720p HD only, but you can applied a firmware hack to unlock the full 1080p HD Video. So capability is there all along, but for marketing reason, it is restricted.

Camera, like cellphones, need to be "ROOTED" or "JAILBREAK" to unlock its full potential. Sony firmware is quite an upgrade. I'm far more impressed by Sony's willingness than canon. Canon T1i (500d) is getting old, we still don't have a firmware upgrade to unlock more HD video options. Canon want us to buy the T2i

Click to expand...

Canon T2i $700
Olympus E-PL1 $450

Markr041 said:

Good for you! But what large-sensor camera offers full manual control of 1080 video for far less than $1000? So, you end up with nothing, or spending a lot more for features you do not need.

And Sony shows signs of responding to consumer interests. It's a new game, given how relatively cheap (not free) it is to just change firmware and transform a camera to a real videographers tool in a small package.

Click to expand...

It would be awesome if a software company would come out with custom firmware-building application so you can customize your menu system and button functions, and if it unlocked additional features and performance all the better. I think a market is there, but are there any legal issues with selling software for another companies hardware?

Alvar said:

Why do you defend them thinking like them? they're the multi-billionaire company that won't have any economical damage by putting a couple of features into the cams.

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Not that I'm a fanboy, but lots of people defend the (lack of features in the) iPhone all the time. And not every problem is solved simply by throwing money and people at it - you might end up delaying things even more.

sumit kishore said:

sumit kishore said:

Why do you defend them thinking like them? they're the multi-billionaire company that won't have any economical damage by putting a couple of features into the cams.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

You speak about software changes as if they're "free" -- they're not. (I say this only partially because I make my living producing software... Ok, maybe mostly. ;-) )

sumit kishore said:

Not that I'm a fanboy, but lots of people defend the (lack of features in the) iPhone all the time. And not every problem is solved simply by throwing money and people at it - you might end up delaying things even more.

Click to expand...

Maybe this is a good example. What features are missing? I use the iPhone every day and don't notice that it's missing features. On the contrary, it has much better features than my previous phones, and I'm pretty happy with it.

Might most people use the Nex and not consider that it's missing a lot of features?

If they do a reasonable job of it, I imagine the vast majority will be just fine with the video changes. If you narrow the aperture, the shutter needs to slow down, and this should address the issue some have complained about. I don't see why you need manual gain control -- ISO only needs to increase when the shutter is getting too low (1/60 sec.?). We'll have to see how Sony implements it. But, if you really need some hard-core videophile features, maybe the Nex isn't the best purchase. I don't have manuial controls for video on any of my P&S cameras, and I think this probably was the target feature set for Nex-3/5.

--
Gary W.

You purchased the NEX5 "hoping" that Sony would give you firmware features?

Really?

Do you buy cars like that? Computers? Phones?

New features through firmware is nice to have...but don't buy products expecting it and then get all pissy.

Lame, very lame.