Advise: Why your computer is slow, and what to do to fix it...

How does this sysetem sound for running PHotoshop CS5 ?

EVGA x58 3x SLI motherboard
Intel core i7 920 processor
6 gigs DDR3 1600 memory
NVIDEA Quadro FX-1500 graphics card
Dual 1.5 TB hard drives for storage
500 gig hard drive for operating system
750 Watt PS

Windows 7 64-bit OS
Photoshop CS5

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Photoblog at: http://timrucciphotography.blogspot.com/
Gallery at: http://www.timrucci.com

 
Bannor, regardless as to how good, bad, complete, or incomplete the OP original Post -- there is logically a limit to the "normal size" of a post.
  • OK. Firstly, how big exactly is a 'normal post'? Secondly, after writing approximately 2 screens of text, 1 more small paragraph wouldn't have turned it into a 'book'.
It seems you are suggesting that the original OP post should have included EVERY conceivable function that helps to maintain/improve performance which (if fully covered) would be the size of a Medium size Book.
  • Firstly, please show where I even hinted that the OP should have included 'EVERY conceivable function'. Don't put words in my mouth unless you can prove I said / wrote them. It makes you look stupid. Secondly, I really don't consider it to be very much effort to include the text 'Start/Programs/Accessories/System Tools/Defrag' when explaining how to speed up a PC. Maybe YOU need a book; most people won't.
I disagree strongly when people give advice to others that is less than sound - especially when trying to appear to be a professional in front of those who are ignorant of the subject at hand. The FIRST thing to do when trying to make a PC run quicker is to clear out the junk, check it for errors and defrag the disk. But don't just take my word for it - read up about it on the internet. Why these 3 things first? 1) They work. They're not the best, but they can definitely help. 2) They cost NOTHING. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA. 3) EVERYONE already has these tools at their disposal. No need to install them. No need to buy anything. 4) They are not technical (unless you think that running defrag is more complicated than installing a new graphics card and drivers). Even the least-technical will be able to use them.

When these steps have been followed, and the PC is still not as fast as it should be, THEN is the time to consider component upgrades which cost money. It's not rocket-science. The OP is advocating the equivalent of replacing the engine of your car when a simple service could make it run like it should!

For many (most?) people reading this thread, it will probably be the first time they have read about things such as 'defag' and 'disk cleanup'. There is no excuse for not starting with them.
--
Bannor

'Political Correctness is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and the media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.'
 
Hi Carlos,
...

I wanted to make things simple, maybe is not the most 'correct' way to explain things, but the idea is taht people who are not techies or programmers can understand.
Your intention was good, really.. probably mistake is on my side: I allowed myself being "pulled" into subject too much... my idea was only to "complete" your post with my opinion. And by doing this, I probably went too far.. after all, many don't care about such details as GPU, RAM speed, HDD/SDD access time, etc. (most photographers probably get their PC from shelves anyway).

Now, if it happens in future, that I'm "correcting" you, it's not I'm chasing you :)

Wish you the best,
Bogdan

PS: My English grammar is very limited too. Well, I'm trying hard -and from my experinece here, native English speaking members are tolerant enough :)
 
For many (most?) people reading this thread, it will probably be the first time they have read about things such as 'defag' and 'disk cleanup'. There is no excuse for not starting with them.
--
Bannor

'Political Correctness is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and the media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.'
Hello Bannor,

I understand that software is many times the reason for slow PCs, and as I said I will cover that later. The reason I started with Hardware is that it will make understanding of the Software part EASIER. The other reason is that many people hear a lot about software, but they don't have a clue of how the PC works.

When I started in the university before we touched a computer, or wrote 1 line of code we had to understand the HARDWARE. See my point?

So, in my humble opinion, not trying to be a 'professional' in front of anybody's eyes, in any case I'm mostly anonymous and I'm not selling anything here, I believe you first learn how things work, then see the software part and all will make sense.

Could I have been done a better job? maybe... but I also think that posting 22 pages of software+hardware explanations would be too much. I prefer this way, it's simple and IMHO easier to understand.

So there you go, there is an 'excuse' (in my case a REASON) why I started with Hardware and not with Software, even when software is my strong point.

Have a nice day :)
 
...

I wanted to make things simple, maybe is not the most 'correct' way to explain things, but the idea is taht people who are not techies or programmers can understand.
Your intention was good, really.. probably mistake is on my side: I allowed myself being "pulled" into subject too much... my idea was only to "complete" your post with my opinion. And by doing this, I probably went too far.. after all, many don't care about such details as GPU, RAM speed, HDD/SDD access time, etc. (most photographers probably get their PC from shelves anyway).

Now, if it happens in future, that I'm "correcting" you, it's not I'm chasing you :)

Wish you the best,
Bogdan

PS: My English grammar is very limited too. Well, I'm trying hard -and from my experinece here, native English speaking members are tolerant enough :)
Hello Bogdan, thank you for your explanation. I think if everybody where that civilized even when they disagree with a point, the forum would be a lot more enjoyable. I appreciate your comment. Thanks.
 
?Hello Carlos

I appreciate what you are trying to do for the community here - really! :)

Perhaps if you had approached it from a different angle, it would have come across differently. For example, your description of the workings of a PC - for the purposes of explaining to people who haven't a clue (or interest?) about their PC on how to speed it up, maybe a description of how it works is not necessary. There are PLENTY of very good explanations (with pictures, video, etc) all over the internet for those with the desire to find this out - it's really not difficult.

Assuming they know absolutely nothing about it, all that really needs to be explained is how to start a program (eg: 'Click on Start / All Programs / ... / Disk Defragmenter'. Then click the 'Defragment' button and go and have a nice long cup of coffee. This program tidies up your files and puts them in order so Windows can find them quickly') - simple explanations. They don't need to know how it works - just what it does, and what buttons to press to use it.

Many of the folks here won't visit 'dodgy' web pages, or download software except from reputable sites. They probably keep Windows updated, and if running as fast as it was when they bought it, are probably satisfied with the speed of their PC (no matter how old it might be). They probably just need to do some basic PC maintenance. They're unlikely to have real problems (viruses, spyware, etc), and have no need for component upgrades (of course there will always be exceptions). And those who want to upgrade will probably already know at least what component they want, and maybe even how to plug it in and install it. To try to help the rest of the masses will really require you to write a book!

It's games players and power users who will need upgrades to the latest and greatest. They will NOT need anyone to explain these things to them - they will read up about things by themselves. For the rest - better to start with the REALLY easy stuff, rather than just with that which you are most comfortable explaining. Then (in another post, maybe) build on that.

As any good doctor will probably tell you, surgery is a LAST option! :)
--
Bannor

'Political Correctness is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and the media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.'
 
Carlos, thank you, I don't keep up on prices so I have no idea what a Raid system with 2 hard drives would cost, maybe you could tell us approx.! I've used the external hard drives for years and they are now really fast with the new USB's and the 500 gig unit was cheap at $80. I have replaced several of them, but have never lost any images because of the back up software. The other gentlemen who asked about the computer for photography work ---- the 500 gig hard drive is a mistake many people make, they use it for storage and you should really think about a smaller one unless your doing video work and either get two external hard drives or do what Carlos suggested. That way you won't lose any photos. They can't be replaced and at least to me are more important than the computer itself.

Don.....

Interesting thread, I learned a few things......
 
"Avoid Solid State drives for now. They are too expensive for the gains they provide"

That's bull*. I have only 2 GB of RAM (with a fast, 3.3 Ghz quad-core processor) and a Samsung 128 GB SSD of over 200 MB/sec read speed. When I click on a 7D RAW file in Windows explorer, it takes JUST FIVE SECONDS until the photo is there on my screen in Photoshop 5, ready for editing.

The fact is that it's a high-speed SSD that provides THE BIGGEST PRACTICAL, EVEYDAY SPEED BOOST of any upgrade (presuming that we are not speaking of a very outdated original computer). With an SSD and Win 7 (which is a must for SSDs), Windows start-up and shut-down times are halved, and every program just snaps to attention when you click on its icon. It's common knowledge that in modern computers, it's the conventional (spinnng) hard drives that are the no.1 bottleneck.

--
http://www.pbase.com/laja30/inbox
 
As any good doctor will probably tell you, surgery is a LAST option! :)
--
Bannor
Hello Bannor,

Sorry for the late reply, one of my kids is sick (twins) so I have little 'pc time'.

I will include your suggestions on the new OP. I understand your point of view, but I also think that I did the right thing starting with HW.
As any good doctor will probably tell you, surgery is a LAST option! :)
You cannot operate on a patient if you don't know how the human body works first (at least I hope it's not me on the table if that's the case) ;)

Thank You for your suggestions, I appreciate your input and your knowledge.
 
.
How does this sysetem sound for running PHotoshop CS5 ?

EVGA x58 3x SLI motherboard
Intel core i7 920 processor
6 gigs DDR3 1600 memory
NVIDEA Quadro FX-1500 graphics card
Dual 1.5 TB hard drives for storage
500 gig hard drive for operating system
750 Watt PS

Windows 7 64-bit OS
Photoshop CS5
Good System IMHO.
 
"Avoid Solid State drives for now. They are too expensive for the gains they provide"

That's bull*. I have only 2 GB of RAM (with a fast, 3.3 Ghz quad-core processor) and a Samsung 128 GB SSD of over 200 MB/sec read speed. When I click on a 7D RAW file in Windows explorer, it takes JUST FIVE SECONDS until the photo is there on my screen in Photoshop 5, ready for editing.

The fact is that it's a high-speed SSD that provides THE BIGGEST PRACTICAL, EVEYDAY SPEED BOOST of any upgrade (presuming that we are not speaking of a very outdated original computer). With an SSD and Win 7 (which is a must for SSDs), Windows start-up and shut-down times are halved, and every program just snaps to attention when you click on its icon. It's common knowledge that in modern computers, it's the conventional (spinnng) hard drives that are the no.1 bottleneck.
Hello Lajos

Thank you for your comments.

Please read the replies to the SSD topic. We have been debating the good and the bad of the SSD. But here is my take on the SSD: they are fast, they have no mechanical parts, and eventually they will replace current HD drives. If you read carefully the OP, I say "Avoid SSD FOR NOW". The reason is that you can have a similar HD speed, with a lot more capacity for a lot less money.

SSD are new tech (well not that new, but for the regular consumer it is). SSD have a limit on the times you can store info on them, after that they start losing the capacity of saving info and...they are expensive.

Not everything is absolute, the prices will go down and I appreciate the advantages they have. I just think that right now, I can do a lot better (in capacity) and save money by using two 7200rpm hard drives configured on RAID 0.

So, in my humble opinion, I did not give bad advice to anyone. But I'm always open to suggestions.

Btw, if you have the money, put two SSD on a RAID 0 and you will have a speed demon going on... but it's going to cost you a lot of cannolis to do that.

Peace.
 
"SSDs have a limit on the times you can store info on them, after that they start losing the capacity of saving info and...they are expensive."

Hungary's no.1 hardware site has recently published a very comprehensive analysis of SSDs. In that article, they made thorough calculations to find out when a current SSD dies as a result of the issue you mentioned. The result was that, even in the very worst-case (totally unrealistic) scenario involving huge amounts of data being written on the disk, an SSD lasts much longer than the normal useful life of a current computer.

Yes, a fast SSD is several times more expensive than a HDD. But to me, as a practical user, the everyday speed benefit is well worth it. Add to that not having to worry about no access to my work, email and photos due to mechanical failure of the system disk. (Granted, I use a HDD to store my files on, but Windows will always work if it's installed on an SSD.)

As to the cost, people here buy 7Ds and lots of lenses. Compared to that, the 300-dollar cost of an SSD is not very high.

--
http://www.pbase.com/laja30/inbox
 
OK, now that I've thought about it, SSD's do come with a few caveats, i.e. you can screw up unless you know some technical issues about them.
  • You need to buy a recent model with TRIM support. TRIM is essentially an SSD maintenance algorythm built into Windows 7 (BUT NO PREVIOUS WINDOWS VERSION). With TRIM not working, your SSD will indeed slow down rather shortly.
  • Consequently, you NEED Windows 7 if you buy an SSD.
  • Naturally, you do need a big conventional hard drive as well. Only your operating system and your most frequently used programs (browser, email client, Photoshop, antivirus etc.) should be installed on an SSD. I even have a few big 3D games on my 128 GB SSD, and 30% of it is still empty.
--
http://www.pbase.com/laja30/inbox
 
OK, now that I've thought about it, SSD's do come with a few caveats, i.e. you can screw up unless you know some technical issues about them.
  • You need to buy a recent model with TRIM support. TRIM is essentially an SSD maintenance algorythm built into Windows 7 (BUT NO PREVIOUS WINDOWS VERSION). With TRIM not working, your SSD will indeed slow down rather shortly.
  • Consequently, you NEED Windows 7 if you buy an SSD.
  • Naturally, you do need a big conventional hard drive as well. Only your operating system and your most frequently used programs (browser, email client, Photoshop, antivirus etc.) should be installed on an SSD. I even have a few big 3D games on my 128 GB SSD, and 30% of it is still empty.
--
http://www.pbase.com/laja30/inbox
Good Points on TRIM. I also explained to somebody on this thread, that if you put the OS and your programs on a SSD you will see good speed gains. Then you can use 7200rpm on RAID 0 with more capacity for Data (not for backup!!!... just to temporary store your work, backup should be always some sort of Mirror RAID 1, 5, etc)

You would not believe how fast I fill up a 128GB hard disk with software alone. I do use SSD but my company pays for it. Many people on the forum are photographers, so they prefer to spend the money on Lens, gear, etc not on the PC.

Anyway, As I said before if you have the money, go for it. If you don't you can use a few tricks like RAID 0 two 7200rpm and you will be happy with the speed.
 
Carlos, thank you, I don't keep up on prices so I have no idea what a Raid system with 2 hard drives would cost, maybe you could tell us approx.! I've used the external hard drives for years and they are now really fast with the new USB's and the 500 gig unit was cheap at $80. I have replaced several of them, but have never lost any images because of the back up software. The other gentlemen who asked about the computer for photography work ---- the 500 gig hard drive is a mistake many people make, they use it for storage and you should really think about a smaller one unless your doing video work and either get two external hard drives or do what Carlos suggested. That way you won't lose any photos. They can't be replaced and at least to me are more important than the computer itself.

Don.....

Interesting thread, I learned a few things......
I hate giving brand names, etc because there is always somebody who will start a war over this or that model. So disclaimer: I do not sell any brand, I do not represent any company. Do your homework and shop around for prices. With that said, I can tell you some ideas. Many new Motherboard already have RAID 0 and 1 onboard. You just have to set it up.

The way RAID is prefferably setup is having two (or more) hard disk of the same model and capacity. Get any 2 HD that have 7200 rpm and the same capacity, let's say 500GB. Check your BIOS settings to see if you have raid available onboard. If you don't you will need a RAID card to connect the HD to it.

Prices vary from Manufacturers, brand, online store etc. As an example, and there could be better prices, I don't have the time to shop around now, here is a combination you can use:

RAID controller for 2 SATA Hard Disk: ($29.00)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816132008&cm_re=RAID_0_controller-_-16-132-008-_-Product

Hard Disk SATA 7200 rpm ($69.00 each with 640GB) :

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136218

The whole RAID topic is interesting an also has his caveats and maybe it's too much to explain here, so I suggest you to Google : RAID 0 (or RAID 1) to read some articles about how to set it up. It's not that complicated, just too long to explain and space and time is limited. Here is an article (with video) about it. It's old since it's about IDE drives instead of SATA, but the principles are the same (hopefull the forum admins will not kick me out for posting links)

http://www.pcworld.com/article/132877/how_to_set_up_raid_on_your_pc.html

IF you have the money, you can get a similar setup using SSD hard disk. It will be really fast, but for this kind of capacity (640 GB) you will have to spend some serious canolis... you decide what you can afford.

Also, as some other people suggested, Hardware is not always (or even the first) solution to take when your PC is slow. I just explained how it works so you can check if your system is all right and to know what's inside that box. In a second OP I will put everything together with Software and hopefully it will be helpful to you.
 
IF you have the money, you can get a similar setup using SSD hard disk. It will be really fast, but for this kind of capacity (640 GB) you will have to spend some serious canolis... you decide what you can afford.
I think this would probably not be a smart way to use SSDs, which can provide a very noticeable increase in speed in areas where it's most needed. I set up a small (80GB) SSD as my primary (C:) drive on an already fast (Core i7) system and installed both the OS and all of my major apps (including CS4, LR3, and pretty well all others) on that drive. I still had tons of remaining space left on the SSD for future apps, but used a separate but fairly fast conventional drive (1TB) for data storage. The speed difference was dramatic, both in boot up time, apps startup time, and overall system responsiveness. This, in spite of the fact that the system was about as fast a PC as you could buy at the time.

Trying to replace all hard drives with SSDs is an expensive proposition and probably a waste of money for most people. But using them carefully can be done at a pretty small expense and the performance difference is very easy to see and feel.
 
Thank You Carlos...Well said "loveingtheveiw"

Some on here forget that some are useing PSCS5 which needs a far better Graphics card than PSCS4.
No. it just needs shaders, which even current el-cheapo budget cards from Nvidia and ATI provide in large enough numbers.
Both CS5 and CS4 simply use OpenGL to use the videocards.
Therefore PSCS5 also does a few things like 3D rendering, therefore it needs a GC with 1GB of memory, so Carlos is correct.
Please provide evidence for this claim that you need a GPU with 1GB of memory for the sort of photoshop work that people in this forum do.

You also need to remind people that the number of photoshop functions that actually are accelerated is embarassingly small. About a dozen!!

And most of those functions I hardly use when editing photos, or don't cost a lot of time anyway, so I hardly benefit from them.

At this time, it is not a good idea to let people spend money on videocards for photoshop. There are far mor efficient things to spend your money on.

Adobe recommends 256MB videocards.

Since even budget cards have 512MB you could advice those. But advising 1GB videocards is simply wrong!

People who upgrade their videocard to 1GB hoping to gain a lot of performance will have wasted their money and will be VERY disappointed by this advice!
As for those very expencive HDD (whatever you call them) Loads of people can NOT afford them, well done Carlos for saying avoid them until price drops. Why slag him off because he said that..
If they don't waste money on a 1GB card it will be easier to afford a SSD.
(even though I wouldn't advice them in general either)

SSDs give great performance for very small files. But most people will be editing files that are several tens of MB large. (especially when you use layers)

So you need good sequential speed, which normal harddisks also have to load the images in memory.

You then apply the photoshop actions in memory, and don't touch the SSD during that time.
I pop into most of the forums as well as the PC Talk, but it is nice sometimes for someone like Carlos to post into their respective forums they haunt frequently in order to help others.
If the advice had been very good, then it would be nice yes.
Unfortunately he advices people to spend money on things that won't help much.
Also remember, Carlos has said 99% that is true, Why? Because lots of us have more than one program running at one time. So a Better CPU/PSU/RAM/ & GC with 1GB of mem will be needed.
The only programs that benefit from 1GB videocards are CAD and games.

Running multiple programs has ZERO impact on the memory on the videocards.

I'll end this post with my own advice:

First the advice that doesn't cost anything.
Other people have already mentioned this: Defrag your disks.

Unfortunately the defrag tool in windows sucks! It doesn't consolidate the free space, which means that you disk wil get fragmented again very fast.

Luckily there are free defrag tools that will consolidate free space: For exameple: defraggler.

Others have also mentioned registry cleaners. But be careful; a lot of them can hurt photoshop because of the dirty way photoshop writes settings in memory.
CCleaner is a good one that is safe to use and again totally free.

About the hardware:

Don't bother looking at the Mhz for CPU performance, because it doens't tell you anything usefull anymore. Nowadays you will need to look at the number of cores and the generation.

Luckily most programs for photo manipulation make very good use of multiple cores.

Even el-cheapo AMD quadcore and sixcore CPUs will give very good performance in photoshop, DPP and such.

If you don't have enough memory this is the most important piece of hardware to upgrade. Lucikly memory has become cheap.

2GB should be okay for most people. But since memory is so cheap it can't hurt to buy 3 or 4 GB.

More than that is usually overkill. If you consider that you should first investigate whether that is a bottleneck in your system, otherwise it will be completely wasted money.

About the PSU. You need a good quality PSU, but usually not a very powerfull one. (those are only needed for people with multiple very expensive gaming videocards)

If you don't have such gaming cards, or just one gaming cards a good quality 500W will be enough (even if you have a lot of harddisks) and quite affordable. The nice bonus is that good quality PSUs will usually be silent.
 

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