Questions about GigaPan Epic 100

I have my Canon T2i mounted onto an Epic 100.

So far, my review has been mixed, and I'm wondering if anyone knows any solutions to the problems I've been having.

Now, first of all, the reason why I didn't buy the Epic Pro is its size. I simply can't put it in my camera back-pack and climb to a place where I could actually use it. My bag is just small enough to be a carry-on and I don't want to throw thousands of dollars in camera equipment into the bottom of a plane, so I can't buy a bigger back-pack.

I've been having two main issues with the Epic 100:

1. Since I've been forced to use an intervalometer, I bought a 120$ wireless one.

The problem is, I can't seem to align the shutter release with the 'time per pic' on the GigaPan. If I set it to 3 seconds between shots, I have to tell the GigaPan to move ever 2.1-2.2 seconds. But that's where the problem lies.

At 2.1, it pans too quickly causing the shot to be taken closer and closer to the beginning of the cycle, eventually lining right up with the panning which of course creates a total blur.

At 2.2, it pans too slowly causing the shot to be taking closer and closer to the end of the cycle, eventually coming to the same end with an identical blurry image.

Since I take 2000+ images and stitch them together, it's annoying to spend so much on a machine that forces me to stop it every 30-60 shots and start is up again.

So, if it were possible to set 2.15 seconds, I think it would be perfect. Or at the very least, it would give me a few hundred shots before having to re-tune.

The reason I bring this up, is because I can't see how everyone else isn't having this problem. We all have to use intervalometers with dSLR's on the Epic 100, and my 3 seconds are just as long as yours.

And btw, yes, my exposure is set. That was the first thing I knocked off my list.

2. I am, at the moment, stuck at 300mm. I bought the Sigma 70-300mm lens. It was cheap since I didn't need IS, and it's fantastically sharp even at f/8.
I have done all the research that I could about this.
The only options I have are:
Buy the Epic Pro and be able to use good-quality 400mm+ lenses or,

Buy a cheap Mirror-Lens with horrible quality.. and I'm not even sure if it will work well enough with the GigaPan.. especially putting into play the tens-of-thousands of photos it would have to take without even adjusting the focus.

To that effect, I went out and bought the Vivitar 800 @ f/8. At first, it seemed like a good idea. It looks amazing, and it's gigantic while not being too long, which is excellent for the nodal point.

However, upon closer inspection and review, I found the lens impossible to focus and aim without tremendous blur. I have yet to try using a separate mono-pod with it. But even if I were able to create something to replace IS in the lens, I do still believe the focus would remain soft and not the least bit sharp. In fact, it looks only mildly better at optimal conditions than the 300mm cropped out to 800mm.

Oh, and not to mention that the 800mm cannot be used on the Epic 100. Unfortunately, it is too heavy.

So.. I figured I'd get the 500mm f/6.3. A shorter zoom, maybe with better image quality that can be used with the Epic 100. I also found that the 800mm lens, with the 2x teleconverter that only cost 30$, at 1600mm did not look any bit worse than at 800mm, except that it was even harder to focus. So much so that I couldn't get a single non-blurry image. So, I'm not really what I can hope for with the 500 x 2 = 1000mm f/12 lens I'll buy tomorrow.. and most likely return as well.
Any advice on this matter will be greatly appreciated.

3. This correlates into #2, but I thought I'd write it down separately.

I am wondering if I could find a tutorial on how to mod the Epic 100 to support extra weight. In my book, it's a win-win. Money and portability. I've seen it done, but only in low quality Youtube vids. I am thinking the support structure would have to be complex to accommodate the range of motion, which might be too difficult for me to build without a workshop. But on the off-chance that it's not as hard as I think.. I'll definitely do it.
If anyone can give me any information, it would be a phenomenal help.

And thanks in advance to anyone who's willing to put input into my lacks of knowledge.
I hope to upload my first Giapixels soon.

Hi. Since nobody else has commented, I guess I'll give it a try.

I don't have a Gigapan Epic 100, but from the description I've seen it has a remote shutter option. The online store sells what looks like a remote trigger cable for $15 that seems like it would fit the 60E3 remote trigger port on the T2i. Is there a reason why this doesn't work? Again, I don't have the Gigapan, so I'm just going by the online information from their website. If the information they have is accurate, then you shouldn't need an intervalometer. That should take care of the first problem. I'm assuming that if the remote trigger port works, it should sync automatically with the movement of the camera.

As to the second issue, all I can say is that it will be difficult to solve your problem. Most telephoto lenses are very heavy and expensive. Ones with IS are even more expensive and heavier. Inexpensive lenses are also usually very poor in image quality. They will also need slower shutter speeds, since they tend to be f/5.6 or greater. Putting them on a slewing platform will tend to bring out their worst qualities.

I hope you get it sorted out. Post a link of some of your gigapan shots if you can.

Hi, Ed.

Well, you basically just re-wrote everything I did.
But I guess it has the purpose of confirming it.

Yes, you're right. This is not easy.
No, the remote only works with the Epic Pro.

I'd like any input on modifying the Epic 100 to support more weight.

Thank yo.

Track said:

No, the remote only works with the Epic Pro.

Click to expand...

That's really odd that they advertise the Epic 100 as having a remote shutter option. According to the online manual it just requires removing the cable for the button pusher, replacing it with the remote trigger cable and plugging it into the remote trigger port of the T2i. You should contact them about a refund if they misrepresented the product.

Track said:

I'd like any input on modifying the Epic 100 to support more weight.

Click to expand...

You'd probably be better off finding a good superzoom camera and using low ISO. It would take you longer, but it should work. Some of the better superzoom cameras have an effective focal length of over 500mm. Unless you're willing to buy the Gigapan Pro I don't think you can reliably support the kind of weight necessary. Even the lightest quality telephoto lenses are from 1.5 - 3.5 lbs. Most of the better lenses are even heavier. And you want something over 300mm, so most of those are going to be closer to the 3.5 lb. range, which puts the lens alone over the recommended maximum weight.

The second problem you have is that the Epic 100 is unsupported on one end of the arm. That's going to make it rather difficult for it to stabilize in a reasonable amount of time. You also can't use anything like a monopod to support the lens because the Gigapan needs to be able to slew very accurately and anything that impedes its motion is going to cause some misalignment.

Just curious: What are you trying to shoot that requires such a long focal length for the type of pano you are trying to create. Unless it's something really still I would imagine there would be all sorts of weird artifacting from the subject's motion.

Ed Yamanaka said:

You'd probably be better off finding a good superzoom camera and using low ISO. It would take you longer, but it should work. Some of the better superzoom cameras have an effective focal length of over 500mm.

Click to expand...

I agree, though for the price, if you already have the better lens, it might be worth it to cut the difference and get the pro. The pixel density of the 550D + crop factor probably puts you ahead even with a 300mm lens + 1.4x TC.

Ed Yamanaka said:

Even the lightest quality telephoto lenses are from 1.5 - 3.5 lbs. Most of the better lenses are even heavier.

Click to expand...

Off the top of my head, something like the 70-300 IS (non-L) with a Kenko 1.4x will get you to 420mm, and stopped down to f11 or so should get you real detail at about the weight limit. Personally, I have the 300L (old f4 non-IS) + 2x + 1.4x TC, and it still gets detail with the 550D... but that combo would be too heavy for the 100.

Ed Yamanaka said:

Unless it's something really still I would imagine there would be all sorts of weird artifacting from the subject's motion.

Click to expand...

Anything large enough to demand 1000s of pictures at 1000mm is most likely static (ie a mountain range) unless we are talking the ocean / city streets

I have to admit, I don't understand the thread in lieu of their product page:

"The EPIC 100 supports shutter actuation through the remote shutter port that is available on most DSLR cameras. Separate cable required depending on camera make/model."

Trying to line up an interval timer is a recipe for disaster... since they claim to have an appropriate cable (the remote port trigger cable - specifically for Canon rebel cameras ), I would look into it.

http://gigapansystems.com/gigapan-products/gigapan-epic-parts.html

--
-CW

よしよし、今日も生きのいい魂が手に入ったな

Sorry for a naive question, but what do you do with these ginormous stiched photos? Print them? How/where?

I think you have missed something - according to their website, the Epic 100 definitely includes a remote shutter release cable for the Rebels. It goes in that headphone-sized jack under the rubber cover next to the USB cable. What it doesn't support is USB-based configuration of DSLRs.

http://gigapansystems.com/gigapan-products/gigapan-epic-parts.html - last one on the page is for Canon Rebels.

With the depths of field you're trying to achieve (deep ones), a compact camera may actually be the better solution. You can serve the small sensor of a compact cam with a much smaller telephoto lens, so major weight savings.

There are better foums than this to inquire in, but a G9 and the canon 2.0x teleconverter may be your best bet. You would lose some dynamic range but you would get the resolution you need. Its still pretty sharp on the long end (420mm 35mm equiv): http://www.lensmateonline.com/newsite/G7tele.html

A G11 at low ISO is also a possibility - you would trade telephoto capability (even with a converter) for dynamic range.

Given its already-cantalivered design, there is definitely no easy way to improve the balance of the mount to make it compatible with heavier cameras. You basically have to take the weight support away from the Epic and transfer it to a frame and gimbal of your own design. I'm sure the first step would be to support the other side of the cantilever arm on a new bearing.

Ed Yamanaka said:

That's really odd that they advertise the Epic 100 as having a remote shutter option. According to the online manual it just requires removing the cable for the button pusher, replacing it with the remote trigger cable and plugging it into the remote trigger port of the T2i. You should contact them about a refund if they misrepresented the product.

Click to expand...

Take a look at the photos - there is no way to remove the cable for the button pusher. Perhaps you're looking at an older model, as there have been at least two of the Epic 100.

Ed Yamanaka said:

You'd probably be better off finding a good superzoom camera and using low ISO. It would take you longer, but it should work. Some of the better superzoom cameras have an effective focal length of over 500mm. Unless you're willing to buy the Gigapan Pro I don't think you can reliably support the kind of weight necessary. Even the lightest quality telephoto lenses are from 1.5 - 3.5 lbs. Most of the better lenses are even heavier. And you want something over 300mm, so most of those are going to be closer to the 3.5 lb. range, which puts the lens alone over the recommended maximum weight.

Click to expand...

A super-zoom camera..?

You mean a cheap P&S?! Listen, I don't know what kind of photographer you take me to be, but there is no way I'm switching out my dSLR.

Besides, with the ASP-C sensor's 1.6x crop factor, my 300mm becomes 471mm, so even if there was a cheapo camera with 500mm, it would be worthless to me.

I know most telephoto lenses are heavy. That's why I'm searching for an exception.

One exception is the Sony 500mm f/6.3 Mirror Lens, that actually has great quality, but only works (as far as I know) on Sony cameras.

Ed Yamanaka said:

The second problem you have is that the Epic 100 is unsupported on one end of the arm. That's going to make it rather difficult for it to stabilize in a reasonable amount of time. You also can't use anything like a monopod to support the lens because the Gigapan needs to be able to slew very accurately and anything that impedes its motion is going to cause some misalignment.

Click to expand...

Again, why are you just copying what I say/already know?
No offense, but it seems easier than actually figuring out a solution.

Ed Yamanaka said:

Just curious: What are you trying to shoot that requires such a long focal length for the type of pano you are trying to create. Unless it's something really still I would imagine there would be all sorts of weird artifacting from the subject's motion.

Click to expand...

Landscapes.

Chez Wimpy said:

Ed Yamanaka said:

You'd probably be better off finding a good superzoom camera and using low ISO. It would take you longer, but it should work. Some of the better superzoom cameras have an effective focal length of over 500mm.

Click to expand...

I agree, though for the price, if you already have the better lens, it might be worth it to cut the difference and get the pro. The pixel density of the 550D + crop factor probably puts you ahead even with a 300mm lens + 1.4x TC.

Click to expand...

Right, but like I said, the Pro is too large to fit in my carry-on bag.

And what do you mean you agree? What kind of a non-professional forum is this that when someone has a dSLR, people tell them to get a P&S? It's ridiculous, to say the least.

Chez Wimpy said:

Chez Wimpy said:

Even the lightest quality telephoto lenses are from 1.5 - 3.5 lbs. Most of the better lenses are even heavier.

Click to expand...

Off the top of my head, something like the 70-300 IS (non-L) with a Kenko 1.4x will get you to 420mm, and stopped down to f11 or so should get you real detail at about the weight limit. Personally, I have the 300L (old f4 non-IS) + 2x + 1.4x TC, and it still gets detail with the 550D... but that combo would be too heavy for the 100.

Click to expand...

No, even the 1.4x TC would be too heavy, considering that it weighs the same as the 2xTC.

Chez Wimpy said:

I have to admit, I don't understand the thread in lieu of their product page:

"The EPIC 100 supports shutter actuation through the remote shutter port that is available on most DSLR cameras. Separate cable required depending on camera make/model."

Trying to line up an interval timer is a recipe for disaster... since they claim to have an appropriate cable (the remote port trigger cable - specifically for Canon rebel cameras ), I would look into it.

Click to expand...

Yes, that would be nice.. except that there is no port to put the cable in.

f97tosc said:

Sorry for a naive question, but what do you do with these ginormous stiched photos? Print them? How/where?

Click to expand...

Special printing firms.

I'm working on a 20-50 Gigapixel of Central Park and the Upper part of Manhattan.

It will be so large, it could be printed on the side of the Empire State Building with near perfect quality, even up close.

Although I am not completely sure who to sell it to.

Until or if I find someone, considering this is my first project, I will print out a 12-foot by 6-foot and display it in my living room until, again, someone will want to buy it.

But the actual purpose of the GigaPan project is to upload your images and have people zoom into them digitally to see all the detail. I might just go for it when I have enough projects to display.

And to be honest, the reason I want a super-telephoto lens is so I can break the world record of 70 Gigapixels.
I want to be the first person in the world to shoot a 1 Terapixel image.

Shorthand said:

I think you have missed something - according to their website, the Epic 100 definitely includes a remote shutter release cable for the Rebels. It goes in that headphone-sized jack under the rubber cover next to the USB cable. What it doesn't support is USB-based configuration of DSLRs.

http://gigapansystems.com/gigapan-products/gigapan-epic-parts.html - last one on the page is for Canon Rebels.

Click to expand...

Again, there's no place to connect a cable on the Epic 100 itself.

Shorthand said:

With the depths of field you're trying to achieve (deep ones), a compact camera may actually be the better solution. You can serve the small sensor of a compact cam with a much smaller telephoto lens, so major weight savings.

There are better foums than this to inquire in, but a G9 and the canon 2.0x teleconverter may be your best bet. You would lose some dynamic range but you would get the resolution you need. Its still pretty sharp on the long end (420mm 35mm equiv): http://www.lensmateonline.com/newsite/G7tele.html

A G11 at low ISO is also a possibility - you would trade telephoto capability (even with a converter) for dynamic range.

Click to expand...

And again, why would I go from 471mm on a dSLR to 420mm on a P&S?

It's like you people don't understand that dSLR > P&S.

Again, no offense, but I am getting insulted.

Shorthand said:

Given its already-cantalivered design, there is definitely no easy way to improve the balance of the mount to make it compatible with heavier cameras. You basically have to take the weight support away from the Epic and transfer it to a frame and gimbal of your own design. I'm sure the first step would be to support the other side of the cantilever arm on a new bearing.

Click to expand...

Yes, it might not be easy. That's why I need a tutorial.

Track said:

Again, there's no place to connect a cable on the Epic 100 itself.

Click to expand...

Then you really need to talk to Gigapan. Again, none of us actually has the unit, so we're just going by the manual. I can tell you that the remote shutter trigger they offer will fit the Rebel T2i.

Track said:

And again, why would I go from 471mm on a dSLR to 420mm on a P&S?

Click to expand...

Because the G9 with a 2X converter will fit on your Gigapan 100 Epic and a Rebel T2i with a 300mm lens won't work well.

Track said:

It's like you people don't understand that dSLR > P&S.

Click to expand...

I'm not understanding why you think that a dSLR is by definition better than a superzoom camera. The Canon G9 or similar units from Panasonic are not 'cheap' P&S cameras. They are fully manual cameras that have excellent optics and I know for a fact that the Canon can shoot RAW. And, as has been stated, the smaller sensor actually works in your favor because it gives you greater depth of field. In addition, the aperture on the high end Canon or Panasonic superzooms is wider than most equivalent dSLR lenses, allowing you to shoot at lower ISO. Since you don't want to carry the Gigapan Pro, a superzoom is probably your best alternative. Not every situation is best suited for a dSLR. I have some friends who shoot macro with a superzoom because they get much better depth of field and magnification than an equivalent dSLR/macro lens combination.

Track said:

Again, no offense, but I am getting insulted.

Click to expand...

Not sure why you're getting insulted. Most folks here are trying to tell you in a nice way that what you want to do is not really a good idea and is potentially impossible. Nobody has called you names or questioned your intelligence.

Track said:

Yes, it might not be easy. That's why I need a tutorial.

Click to expand...

Considering you want to break the record for a Gigapan panoramic photo, have you considered that no one else has been able to solve the problems that you are encountering? If they had, then they would already have broken the record. Following a tutorial is unlikely to get you where you want to be since the person who made the tutorial is likely already a few steps ahead of you.

If you really are flat out refusing to get the Gigapan Pro or get Gigapan to exchange your Epic 100 for a unit that has the remote trigger option they clearly advertise, here's my advice: study some basic electronics so you can hack a remote trigger onto the Gigapan Epic 100. That should be really easy as the wiring for the remote trigger on the Rebel T2i is simple. (There are probably dozens of tutorials on creating a remote trigger for a T2i) Then find some stepper motors with more torque than the ones that are in your unit. Either cut a secondary arm for the unsupported side or have a metalshop do the job for you. You will probably also need to replace the gears with something studier. I'd imagine the Epic 100 uses nylon gears. With the extra torque you would probably want to go with brass. You also might need to extend the entire arm structure so that you can balance the lens and camera on it's nodal point.

I would imagine that after you are finished you will probably have a unit about the same weight as the Gigapan Pro and it will have cost you maybe $100 in parts.

The Sony mirror lens will only fit on a Sony or Minolta dSLR. I'm not sure if they make any adapters to fit other cameras. Even so, the lens would not autofocus. Mirror lenses also have very unusual ring-shaped out of focus highlights that can be very unpleasant.

No quality autofocus lens above 400mm for a Canon dSLR is going to weigh less than 1.5 lbs. Any lens weighing less will have optical quality that is substantially less than the superzoom camera that you are trying to avoid. You simply will not find the lens you want because it doesn't exist. No amount of hoping is going to change that.

Using the intervalometer is not an effective way of triggering the shutter; I think it might be easier to just redesign the button pusher if you can't fit the remote trigger. I'm not sure what type of intervalometer you have, but if it is part of an external battery grip, you will also lighten the camera if you ditch it.

As for repeating what you said, the reason why I did that was to stress why it was a bad idea to do what you wanted to do. If I actually had any serious desire to do a record breaking Gigapan panoramic, I would probably have a friend of mine strip out the electronics package from one of their units and build me a custom rig. He has about 30 years of experience in mechanical and electrical engineering and enjoys challenges.

I'm not sure how much experience you have with digital photography, but I get the impression that you might need more experience with the photography aspect before you try your project.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

Track said:

And what do you mean you agree? What kind of a non-professional forum is this that when someone has a dSLR, people tell them to get a P&S?

Click to expand...

I guess its because this is a... non-professional forum.

Track said:

No, even the 1.4x TC would be too heavy, considering that it weighs the same as the 2xTC.

Click to expand...

The total weight of the 1.4x 300DG 70-300IS combo I suggested is 18.7 + 22 + 7.2 oz. That is just a hair under three pounds.

Track said:

Yes, that would be nice.. except that there is no port to put the cable in.

Click to expand...

http://gigapansystems.com/using-the-gigapan-imager.html#usingtheepic100features

"Unplug the button pusher cable from the EPIC 100 (note: the exposed contacts for the button pusher face you when plugged in). At this point you can remove the button pusher from the EPIC 100 if you wish. Just remove the adjustment screw and slide the button pusher out of the camera mounting plate."

"Plug the remote shutter cable into the EPIC 100 (note: the exposed contacts for this cable will face you; this is opposite of the button pusher cable). "

Did you actually read the manual?

--
-CW

よしよし、今日も生きのいい魂が手に入ったな

Track said:

And to be honest, the reason I want a super-telephoto lens is so I can break the world record of 70 Gigapixels.
I want to be the first person in the world to shoot a 1 Terapixel image.

Click to expand...

I was just reading about a recent record breaker, and I am pretty sure they used a 400 prime with TC's (on a D300 perhaps?). The pixel density of the T2i can't hurt... but you will probably need to stick with mirror lenses if you are unable to upgrade to the heavier platform.

--
-CW

よしよし、今日も生きのいい魂が手に入ったな

Chez Wimpy said:

Track said:

And to be honest, the reason I want a super-telephoto lens is so I can break the world record of 70 Gigapixels.
I want to be the first person in the world to shoot a 1 Terapixel image.

Click to expand...

I was just reading about a recent record breaker, and I am pretty sure they used a 400 prime with TC's (on a D300 perhaps?). The pixel density of the T2i can't hurt... but you will probably need to stick with mirror lenses if you are unable to upgrade to the heavier platform.

Click to expand...

Unless I'm reading the information wrong, the Epic 100 has a panning step of 0.36 degrees. That makes for a maximum of 1000 images for panning. The Epic Pro has 3 times the accuracy (0.12 degrees panning). Assuming a similar ratio for tilt, the Epic Pro has 0.04 degree tilt, so the Epic 100 might have a 0.12 degree tilt. Even allowing for a tilt of the same amount as the Pro, I don't think the Epic 100 can take enough images to create a 70 gigapixel image, regardless of lens. There needs to be a certain amount of overlap for each image. The Epic 100 also has less negative tilt with a long lens from what I can tell. The Pro has a negative tilt of 65 degrees. The actual arm length that holds the vertical tilt stepper motor isn't long enough to allow enough up and down movement without banging either the lens or camera body into the panning platform.

On the plus side, from looking at the information on gigapan.org, they are supposed to be releasing an open source reference design so a person can build their own gigapan mount.