No more D2X type DX bodies?

I have always thought that the D300, altough excellent, is too large and heavy for not being FF, the 7D has almost excatly the same size and weight.
The size of the D300 comes from having a metal chassis, additional controls on the outside of the body, a full size viewfinder and more ruggedness and seals than the D90. If you want a smaller body, go buy the D90. I personally want a DX body and don't want to give up any of the things that the D300 brings over the D90.

Why do you think that because it's DX, it should be tiny or because it's a good sized body, it should be FX. That's ridiculous. DX vs. FX is only one thing that contributes to the size constraints of the body - there are many other factors that have nothing to do with the sensor size.

Some of us want as full a featured DX body as we can get and in today's Nikon lineup, that's the D300s body. I personally don't think Nikon should stop filling that spot in the market.

If you want to argue for more features in the D90 body size, then that is what is rumored to be the D95 and you can focus on that part of the discussion.

If you want to argue for a smaller FX version of the D700, then make a separate argument for that new product, but neither of those arguments have anything to do with the D300 because it serves a very different market need than the D700 or a smaller D700.

I personally think it's more likely that DX sensor noise improves into the range of today's FX in the future than it is that FX takes over more and more market positions from DX. DX is so much less expensive to make (both body and lens) and DX sensors will always be less than FX sensors because smaller silicon is always less costly than larger silicon.

The one thing that FX has going for it forever is high resolution because DX will get maxed out by both diffraction and the ability of lenses to resolve the pixel density. I don't know where the useful limit is for DX, but it could be around 16-18MP. I'm not saying that people won't make cameras with greater pixel density than that, but it might not actually buy you anything beyond that.

So, in the long run, I'm guessing that FX owns the realm of super high ISO performance (it can always be a stop better than DX) and high resolution (> 18MP) while DX has high ISO performance around what the D3s can do today and it covers almost everything below 18MP.
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Apparently you just ordered a D3100 as you keep raving that it beats everything out there, including the D700. I think you will be surprised that it does not come near the D700 performance though, even though it's now a 3 year old camera. Because it has 2MP more and also has iso12800 on the box does not mean it is a better camera. And I won't even touch the video remark.

Maybe in about 3-4 years the DX will be where FX is today, but just imagine where FX will be then.

No offense, the D3100 is a really neat camera and it is leading the way with the new sensor and technology, but comparing it to a pro version from 5 years ago based just on resolution is really lame. When the D95 comes out we will all laugh at the D3100 because it has 16MP and iso 25600, and then when the D400 comes out next year we will laugh again, and when the D800 is introduced the D3100 will again be what the D60 is right now, the bottom feeder.

Not to disappoint you, but this is evolution and how it has always been with DLSRs. The next model will always be better than the one below it.

PS: The D3s is only 1 stop (maybe 1.5?) better than the D700, so it is not leaps ahead, just enough to matter to some people. I would not trade in my D700 for a D700s based on that performance and the video options. You apparently would trade in a D700 to get the D3100 if I read you correctly.

But again, OP was asking if another pro body would ever come out with a DX sensor. The D3100 is still not an option to him, as video and 2MP more was not his point. Sealed, shock-resistant, manual controls, better AF and metering etc etc ARE his point.

--
Ai-S all the way!
 
That's why he is asking if they will come out with a new one.

--
Ai-S all the way!
And the answer is no !
they probably wont but you will get cameras with dx and high iso capability
and fast autofocus and fast speed and a smaller form factor
with better image quality then the d2x ever had.

by the way I hate the word plastic because its related to PVC in our common everyday life and the material the camera makers are using is polycarbonate.

A material that is quite rugged.It also doesnt change its size and form that much.

A camera made from polycarbonate can be made to last as long as one that is made from metal its a question of construction.
Angenieux that was one of the best zoom lens makers also used it on some
of its high premium lenses and that was in 1980 !
http://forum.mflenses.com/angenieux-2-5-3-3-35-70mm-leica-r-mount-t19877.html

http://www.nikongear.com/smf/index.php?topic=21458.0

Peter
 
Yes indeed, but people are giving the impression that the D95 will be the new D400 with the specs that have been released (or at least rumored). If this is the case, the gap between D5100 and D95 wil become too big and will actually be in the same segment as the D300/D400. That is not the logical situation IMO. Hence the remark is will just get an alloy body to even up in the 50D/60D class.

--
Ai-S all the way!
 
That's why he is asking if they will come out with a new one.

--
Ai-S all the way!
And the answer is no !
Oops. Did you just violate your Nikon NDA? Because if you didn't, you really have no basis in fact to make this pronouncement.
they probably wont
Ah, so this is a guess. Well, just so we know...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's easy to argue about equipment and technique, but hard to argue with a good photograph -- and more difficult to capture one .



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Canon is rumored to start using their APS-H sensor in more bodies now that prices are dropping and APS-C is reaching it's limits. Just food for thought, even though Nikon does not have an APS-H sensor.

--
Ai-S all the way!
 
If the rumored specs of the D95 are correct - 16 mp, magnesium body, 6-8 fps, 39 AF-points, 1080p video w AF, etc, I dont see much room for even a update to the D300S.

The D95 might be the new top DX (altough D300s will stay in the lineup for a while longer) and the real replacement for the D300 will be an FF. The new 24-120 and 28-300 seem to be made for "affordable" FF.
That only makes sense if "affordable" actually means "price that people who by the D300 today can afford." IOW, Prices for the bottom-of-the-line FF DSLRS must come down to levels that a larger group of buyers can actually afford . Otherwise Nikon will be selling fewer cameras, and I can promise you, they have no interest in doing so. As has been discussed before, yes, eventually FF prices will come down... but we're not there yet. FF sensors are just too expensive to manufacture.
The reason for many to get a FF body is that they expect better lowlight capabilities...
I don't know if its worth having this conversation. We were talking about affordability, and now you seek to talk about lowlight (new topic in this portion of the thread) and somehow expect that argument is going to satisfy affordability. Hint: if you can't afford a sensor that does great lowlight captures, you can't enjoy the benefits of lowlight -- you have to look for alternative options, and yes, compromises. Even the D300 and D90 today -- you know, those old, obsolete cameras -- are reasonable compromises.
then the Dx counterparts but quite frankly they will up the Mp count AND the lowlight capabilities with the D90 successor. i quite frankly expect it to be better then the D700 is today imagewise.
See my other response regarding Nikon NDAs, but while we can hope for this, the rest of us would wonder about this camera that adds MP and increases high ISO capability all in one fell swoop. Not even the D3s managed to do that, so we wonder how a smaller sensor would accomplish this double feat.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's easy to argue about equipment and technique, but hard to argue with a good photograph -- and more difficult to capture one .



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Apparently you just ordered a D3100 as you keep raving that it beats everything out there, including the D700. I think you will be surprised that it does not come near the D700 performance though, even though it's now a 3 year old camera. Because it has 2MP more and also has iso12800 on the box does not mean it is a better camera. And I won't even touch the video remark.

Maybe in about 3-4 years the DX will be where FX is today, but just imagine where FX will be then.

No offense, the D3100 is a really neat camera and it is leading the way with the new sensor and technology, but comparing it to a pro version from 5 years ago based just on resolution is really lame. When the D95 comes out we will all laugh at the D3100 because it has 16MP and iso 25600, and then when the D400 comes out next year we will laugh again, and when the D800 is introduced the D3100 will again be what the D60 is right now, the bottom feeder.

Not to disappoint you, but this is evolution and how it has always been with DLSRs. The next model will always be better than the one below it.

PS: The D3s is only 1 stop (maybe 1.5?) better than the D700, so it is not leaps ahead, just enough to matter to some people. I would not trade in my D700 for a D700s based on that performance and the video options. You apparently would trade in a D700 to get the D3100 if I read you correctly.

But again, OP was asking if another pro body would ever come out with a DX sensor. The D3100 is still not an option to him, as video and 2MP more was not his point. Sealed, shock-resistant, manual controls, better AF and metering etc etc ARE his point.

--
Ai-S all the way!
No I did not order one ! Nor am I related to that camera in any way.. quite frankly i am using 2 D700 cameras at the moment of which one is in repair at the moment.
I also have a d300.
my point is that the cameras are getting better with every generation
my point is also that there is nothing like a sealed camera.
there are cameras with more seals in them but if they help is another question.

there is also nothing that is shock resistant since its a question of impact and where
this impact occurs.. at what angle etc........

Quite frankly a great deal of the parts on my Hasselblad H3 are made from polycarbonate and that doesnt make it a lesser material the the generation before that namely the V system.

When cameras break its mostly not the big parts its mostly the smallest parts in a chain.Sometimes its just a small screw that comes off inside.
The question if there will be a successor to the D3 that will have a dx sensor
is simple.... no there wont be.
I will also not get a D3100 instead of a d700.... ; )
But nothing changes the fact that cameras are getting better.....
 
That's why he is asking if they will come out with a new one.

--
Ai-S all the way!
And the answer is no !
Oops. Did you just violate your Nikon NDA? Because if you didn't, you really have no basis in fact to make this pronouncement.
they probably wont
Ah, so this is a guess. Well, just so we know...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's easy to argue about equipment and technique, but hard to argue with a good photograph -- and more difficult to capture one .



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they very highly probably wont... so thats a highly probable guess : )
and i didnt say of all times but not for the near future.....
heck you know that too !dont you ?
Peter
 
I don't think so, that's not always practical, I use a D2X and 200-400 for motor sport, it's the ideal combo, I will get a 1.4X convertor for some tracks for even more reach. Nikon does not make a 300-600mmf4 lens for FX that I could use a 1.4x on for equivalant angle of view, if they did it would be massive and very heavy. If you watch F1 racing on TV you will notice a prevalence of white lenses during the grid walk, most photogs have a 600 f4 lens with their 1.3x crop factor pro bodies, and even use them for portraits from the front of a garage to shoot into the garage. I have seen a few Nikon users with the 200-400 mixed amongst them and the odd black 600mm, but very few. Crop factor rules.
--
Mike
 
If the rumored specs of the D95 are correct - 16 mp, magnesium body, 6-8 fps, 39 AF-points, 1080p video w AF, etc, I dont see much room for even a update to the D300S.

The D95 might be the new top DX (altough D300s will stay in the lineup for a while longer) and the real replacement for the D300 will be an FF. The new 24-120 and 28-300 seem to be made for "affordable" FF.
That only makes sense if "affordable" actually means "price that people who by the D300 today can afford." IOW, Prices for the bottom-of-the-line FF DSLRS must come down to levels that a larger group of buyers can actually afford . Otherwise Nikon will be selling fewer cameras, and I can promise you, they have no interest in doing so. As has been discussed before, yes, eventually FF prices will come down... but we're not there yet. FF sensors are just too expensive to manufacture.
The reason for many to get a FF body is that they expect better lowlight capabilities...
I don't know if its worth having this conversation. We were talking about affordability, and now you seek to talk about lowlight (new topic in this portion of the thread) and somehow expect that argument is going to satisfy affordability. Hint: if you can't afford a sensor that does great lowlight captures, you can't enjoy the benefits of lowlight -- you have to look for alternative options, and yes, compromises. Even the D300 and D90 today -- you know, those old, obsolete cameras -- are reasonable compromises.
then the Dx counterparts but quite frankly they will up the Mp count AND the lowlight capabilities with the D90 successor. i quite frankly expect it to be better then the D700 is today imagewise.
See my other response regarding Nikon NDAs, but while we can hope for this, the rest of us would wonder about this camera that adds MP and increases high ISO capability all in one fell swoop. Not even the D3s managed to do that, so we wonder how a smaller sensor would accomplish this double feat.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's easy to argue about equipment and technique, but hard to argue with a good photograph -- and more difficult to capture one .



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Cameras are getting better with every generation and better for low light with
every generation. We can be safe to say that we saw a boost in quality from

one generation to the other that equaled about 1 to 1,5 stops as a rule of thumb.

The difference between a camera of the same generation that has a Dx sensor and one that has an FF sensor is also around one stop. So we can say a camera that has a FF sensor today will highly probable have the same high iso quality
a dx camera of the next generation will have.
You will see that the new D90 successor will have around 50 % more resolution
then the old one had and have the same low light capability of the D700 today.
This is also pointed out in one of the nikonrumor threads on the new sensor.
The result is that you are getting a much more affordable camera .....
Peter
 
D300s is the direct competition for the 7D, not the D90.

The D95 body may become magnesium, but so it that of the 10D-50D. It's more of a direct competition now with these two models (D95/60D) to make room for the D400 to be upgraded to match the 7D class.
But the 50D will be replaced by the 60D which will have a plastic body. So in a way the places will be switched and Nikon and Canon will go back to the usual pattern of avoiding direct confrontation - the D300s and 7D is an exception. It can be a repeat of the D300-D2x story. Nikon replaces a high end modell with a lower, but with such good specs and value that there is little to complain about. Then they try get the prosumer target group of the D300 to take the step over to fullframe.

I think that when a video enabled D700S or possible D800 with a version of the Sony 24 mp sensor arrives at a price point of maybe 2000-2200 euros it would be hard to defend a price point of maybe 17-1800 euros for a D400 (original price of D300S).
Leaving a large gap between the 5000D and D95 would mean leaving room for the competitors to take that segment.

D3100 - D5000 - D95 - D300s - D700 - D3s - D3x covers all bases, just like
500D - 550D - 60D - 7D - 5D2 - 1D4 - 1Ds3

But judging by the numbering scheme, they could also be up to something else ;)

--
Ai-S all the way!
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Then why do you keep coming back with your D3100 dribble?

We all know technology gets better, he wants to know about a pro body with DX like his D2X.

--
Ai-S all the way!
 
I have always thought that the D300, altough excellent, is too large and heavy for not being FF, the 7D has almost excatly the same size and weight.
The size of the D300 comes from having a metal chassis, additional controls on the outside of the body, a full size viewfinder and more ruggedness and seals than the D90. If you want a smaller body, go buy the D90. I personally want a DX body and don't want to give up any of the things that the D300 brings over the D90.

Why do you think that because it's DX, it should be tiny or because it's a good sized body, it should be FX. That's ridiculous. DX vs. FX is only one thing that contributes to the size constraints of the body - there are many other factors that have nothing to do with the sensor size.

Some of us want as full a featured DX body as we can get and in today's Nikon lineup, that's the D300s body. I personally don't think Nikon should stop filling that spot in the market.

If you want to argue for more features in the D90 body size, then that is what is rumored to be the D95 and you can focus on that part of the discussion.

If you want to argue for a smaller FX version of the D700, then make a separate argument for that new product, but neither of those arguments have anything to do with the D300 because it serves a very different market need than the D700 or a smaller D700.
I dont want to argue for what Nikon should do, I am speculating in what I think they might do. I do think that Nikon wants to pull over the semi pro users to FF.

It is getting hard to justify the price performance ratio of an expensive DX, if we get magnesium body, 6 fps, almost pro level AF, 1080p video, etc in a body at half the price D300s or Canon 7D sells for. The new family of FF lenses seems to be a sign that Nikon does not only see FF as only for hard core pros.
I personally think it's more likely that DX sensor noise improves into the range of today's FX in the future than it is that FX takes over more and more market positions from DX. DX is so much less expensive to make (both body and lens) and DX sensors will always be less than FX sensors because smaller silicon is always less costly than larger silicon.

The one thing that FX has going for it forever is high resolution because DX will get maxed out by both diffraction and the ability of lenses to resolve the pixel density. I don't know where the useful limit is for DX, but it could be around 16-18MP. I'm not saying that people won't make cameras with greater pixel density than that, but it might not actually buy you anything beyond that.

So, in the long run, I'm guessing that FX owns the realm of super high ISO performance (it can always be a stop better than DX) and high resolution (> 18MP) while DX has high ISO performance around what the D3s can do today and it covers almost everything below 18MP.
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Then why do you keep coming back with your D3100 dribble?

We all know technology gets better, he wants to know about a pro body with DX like his D2X.

--
Ai-S all the way!
Because that is where dx is going to........

smaller bodies and more affordable .....dx and larger bodies you call them pro bodies ..Fx sensor......
If lucky there will be camera like the d300s with dx sensor remaining..
and there is no dribble....

The 3100 is just the first of a new generation thats all...the d90 successor will probably be the second. when we know the specs of that one we will see with
a high probability how the other models of the new generation will perform.
Peter
 
I have always thought that the D300, altough excellent, is too large and heavy for not being FF, the 7D has almost excatly the same size and weight.
The size of the D300 comes from having a metal chassis, additional controls on the outside of the body, a full size viewfinder and more ruggedness and seals than the D90. If you want a smaller body, go buy the D90. I personally want a DX body and don't want to give up any of the things that the D300 brings over the D90.

Why do you think that because it's DX, it should be tiny or because it's a good sized body, it should be FX. That's ridiculous. DX vs. FX is only one thing that contributes to the size constraints of the body - there are many other factors that have nothing to do with the sensor size.

Some of us want as full a featured DX body as we can get and in today's Nikon lineup, that's the D300s body. I personally don't think Nikon should stop filling that spot in the market.

If you want to argue for more features in the D90 body size, then that is what is rumored to be the D95 and you can focus on that part of the discussion.

If you want to argue for a smaller FX version of the D700, then make a separate argument for that new product, but neither of those arguments have anything to do with the D300 because it serves a very different market need than the D700 or a smaller D700.
I dont want to argue for what Nikon should do, I am speculating in what I think they might do. I do think that Nikon wants to pull over the semi pro users to FF.

It is getting hard to justify the price performance ratio of an expensive DX, if we get magnesium body, 6 fps, almost pro level AF, 1080p video, etc in a body at half the price D300s or Canon 7D sells for. The new family of FF lenses seems to be a sign that Nikon does not only see FF as only for hard core pros.
I personally think it's more likely that DX sensor noise improves into the range of today's FX in the future than it is that FX takes over more and more market positions from DX. DX is so much less expensive to make (both body and lens) and DX sensors will always be less than FX sensors because smaller silicon is always less costly than larger silicon.

The one thing that FX has going for it forever is high resolution because DX will get maxed out by both diffraction and the ability of lenses to resolve the pixel density. I don't know where the useful limit is for DX, but it could be around 16-18MP. I'm not saying that people won't make cameras with greater pixel density than that, but it might not actually buy you anything beyond that.

So, in the long run, I'm guessing that FX owns the realm of super high ISO performance (it can always be a stop better than DX) and high resolution (> 18MP) while DX has high ISO performance around what the D3s can do today and it covers almost everything below 18MP.
--
John
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Very highly probable scenario ! The new 28-300 lens is a sign that that could be the case..
 
I dont want to argue for what Nikon should do, I am speculating in what I think they might do. I do think that Nikon wants to pull over the semi pro users to FF.

It is getting hard to justify the price performance ratio of an expensive DX, if we get magnesium body, 6 fps, almost pro level AF, 1080p video, etc in a body at half the price D300s or Canon 7D sells for. The new family of FF lenses seems to be a sign that Nikon does not only see FF as only for hard core pros.
Here's where I think the argument doesn't work. For me to go to a FF body for large field sports and maintain the same reach and viewfinder and AF performance, I'd have to buy a new 600mm f/4 lens that costs over $10,000, weighs 4 pounds more than the 200-400 I already have and is a complete loss of zoom flexibility. So, they want me to spend an additional $12,000 (I'm guessing on the cost of the FX body), add weight and lose zoom. How is that an upgrade? I'm not doing that. Nikon will probably lose me as a customer if that's the only path they offer me for the future. I think Nikon would lose a lot of other advanced amateurs who want/need reach/zoom and or aren't going to spring for a $10,000 lens.

Portability and affordability of long lenses is EXACTLY where FX falls flat on it's face. It's why there should still be an option for people who don't need bleeding edge low light performance to still have top performance in all other regards with DX. It's not like the 200-400 is exactly in the affordable category either but it's like half what the 600 f/4 costs.

Now, if they could come out with a 300-600 f/4 zoom that at least matches the optical performance, weight and cost of the 200-400, then there'd be an option, but we know that physics simply doesn't allow that. A 300-600 f/4 zoom would be a lot larger, heavier and costly than a 200-400. That's why it's easier to solve the system problem with a DX sensor in a quality, fast AF body and use smaller optics.

FYI, I kind of get your argument for anything shorter than 200mm, but I think it all breaks down with lenses longer than that. If I didn't shoot longer than that, I would have bought a D3 or D700 instead of my D300. But, that isn't the case for me.

For another example, read what Thom Hogan takes on African Safari. He has access to pretty much all Nikon lenses and bodies and he primarily uses a D300 + 200-400 because it's the best combination for the job (same thing I used on my African Safari).
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