Fast lens or High ISO cameras

RaajS,

Good point. I for one sometimes get carried away in making my point. I am emotional art times. When you have multiple people stating their views at the same time, when responding to it all can get out of hand. When things cool off around here we will all agree that using any camera is photography. Please accept my appology.
-Peter
Reading this thread has been a surreal experience. Sometimes the "Leica" nonsense about "real" photography and real "photographers" seems to transport one to a Dali-esque landscape.

Digital imaging versus real "photography" - now I've heard it all. Unbelievable. Time to go shoot some "digital images" and exit this forum.

Cheers,
-raaj
Man, you are thick. Stop your blabbing about real photography and real photographer. Low iso, high iso, analog, digital, Leica or Nikon, it doesn't matter, what counts is the impact your picture have on you.

As for being an artist since forever, I have yet to find any interest in your pictures, film or not. I don't think that being an artist is a warrant of any talent.

I am getting tired of the utter nonsense that I read in those forum especially from people like you.
As an artist since 4 and 5 years old I ask those who posted comments about art vs photography do you have more real paintings hung on your walls than photographs/prints?

Do not presume to lecture me as I have starved and even been hospitalized due to satarving as an artist. I have dedicated my life to art.

If people would buy more paintings I would have more food and so would the other artists. But they don't do they? People have many photo's and prints but few real paintings and sculptures. There are exceptions, there always are so that means nothing.
I see that film is real photography and it is not high ISO digital imaging.
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
--
http://www.lhotelin.com
--
'Change is not Mandatory, you don't have to Survive...'
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
 
flhotelin, I did get carried away. For me when I'm answering multiple threads/responses my mind races on far ahead. This has had an adverse effect here in this thread so I appologize.

Sometimes my inspriational thoughts are good, sometimes they are not. I agree any camera is an instrument for photography.
Point taken. I didn't say or think "idiot". I was just talking about your expertise in determining what is real or not real photography.

I didn't judge your ability as a painter or sculptor since I never seen any of your work.
I have no idea how you have seen my paintings, sculptures or even photographs. I have never felt that I have accolmplished anything special with a camera and I have said as much on numerous occasions. However if you wish to judge my paintings and sculptures call me. You are welcome to visit my home and have a look.

I am not yet satisfied with my art and I do not yet feel I know what it is I wish to say with art. I have indeed spent my whole life pondering this and perhaps it will come to me.

I do not really believe in the portable paintings on canvas that the Flemish brought to the world as it has reduced artists to people who's lives are controlled/dependent on art galleries. I have endevored to become a Fresco Mural wallvpainter and in this way I would, and all the other Mural painters would be dealing with the client directly and in this way I believe they would prosper.

You can laugh, but as a 5 year old I had an exhibition in the first grade in a Manhattan school. They sat me down and sat all around me and asked me questions for about 15 min when they were done I was told that a mind like mine comes along only every several hundred years and that they thought I could save the world through my art. They told me that around thirty I may find myself starving but asked me not to give up. Well I did starve at around thirty and I became sick and did need medical help.

Now I'm sixty years old and I have still not given up with what I was asked to do. At this point I think they should never have spoken to a 5 year old as they did and that they perhaps should not have charged me to save the world. But it's a moot point. I have been working on an artistic solution that would inspire humanity to never give up the struggle for existance no matter how difficult life may be at times. That's it. this is all I have. This has been my feeling and what it is I want to say. But it does not lend itself to painting and sculpture that easily. I have not yet come up with a satisfactory painting. I actually look at all my work as nothing more than efforts in keeping my skills honed. The mind is really what is my real tool and so far I am not able to paint what I feel. I have hoped since around age 32 when I was starving that perhaos experience gained through life would benifit me. I still think this, but now I wander how effective I would be at age 60 climbing a scaffold and exicuting a large wall painting. I do not need many, just a few good paintings in public buildings to be viewed as long as the building remains.

One idea I have is a painting of a near by river showing the lushness of life. In the river a modern boy meets a young indian boy from 500 years ago. In this moment, they can each see the world of the other. One is clean and full of healthy life, the other is polluted and overun as a sort of cesspool for the all to succesfull modern technolgical world that I am part of.

That's it, I'm not concerned in anyway about artistic merits of such a painting , I am only concernde about the message. This is the hard part for me. I hope I have the courage to do this mural, I feel we need it.

But that is the extent of me as an artist. I do not care now and almost never have cared about museams, art shows, money or fame. I just wish to keep my word to these artistic people with whom I spoke at an art exhibition back in 1955. BTW, I was already thinlking about being an artist before this event. But then I wanted money and fame and a lot of villas in many countries to travel to and do my art when and where I wanted and to have many woman lovers. This all changed, and now I only wish to get out enough good work to make a difference and show people we need to respect the environment.

Perhaps you think I'm an idiot, or a misled person. But it is my choice to dedicate myself to art and saving the world. Even if at age 60 I have not yet reached the place I need to be. I have not given up, anyway nothing I do will hurt you. That's even if I actually get a few murals up and they are valid.

I think there are enough other artists who are not like me to fill the world up with their paintings and sulptures. Just like there are many photographers.

I'm me and that's that. I play many wooden accustic instruments from guitar, violin, viola, sitar, oud, rabab, sarod, sarangi and erhu. I do not do this for money I do it to understand the different musical languages of the world. I hope this will broaden my own understanding of life.
Man, you are thick. Stop your blabbing about real photography and real photographer. Low iso, high iso, analog, digital, Leica or Nikon, it doesn't matter, what counts is the impact your picture have on you.

As for being an artist since forever, I have yet to find any interest in your pictures, film or not. I don't think that being an artist is a warrant of any talent.

I am getting tired of the utter nonsense that I read in those forum especially from people like you.
 
Peter

I suspect some of the chemicals used in film processing are not very good for the environment either. OTOH I'd agree that quality traditional cameras that have a long useful life are probably less harmful than cameras that get discarded after a few years. However I'm sure the computer you are using to read this is just as harmful to the environment as any digital camera - what is the average luseful lifespan of a PC these days?

I also don't quite see how manufacturing an M10 with kind of features the OP suggested would be any more harmful than continuing to manufacture M9s.

Perhaps there will be some who use these cameras to document and comment on the kind of unrestrained consumerism and environmental degredation you mention which could encourage more people to start looking around and thinking.
  • C
More, give us more and more that's a typical mantra of people everywhere. Even though what already exists is fine in every respect and is capable in every respect of producing quality. More more we want more ISO204,800 is next. Then in just a few years there will be no limit on available light photography. Now, finally we can all produce masterpieces. We can photograph everything anytime. No matter that the worlds dwindling resources will be struggling to sustain life on this planet. We went out swinging/snapping!

I think it's time all the selfish people start looking around at this earth and put an end to the more is better mantra. There are oih, so many more worthy things for our efforts other than more ISO for our cameras.

I guess you think having the ability to take pictures at night is worth throwing away the health of the planet.

The window on the envirnment is closing and we are still babling on about such things.

That's my point, really , what we have is already good enough, time now for humanity to address the real environmental problems caused by this technology. But people go on and on, give us more, we don't care about anything but our greedy desires. It's really disgusting. Are you going to argue that there is no environmental problem caused by our technology?
What the OP want's in the next digital Leica the M10 is so very important and the world will place this before safeguarding the environment. Why? Because there is money to be made by these industrial companies, they will meet the demands of all the affluent individuals for more technology, this they will do anyday before actually looking after the environment.
 
abaovo

This is exactly what I'm doing. I'm no longer trying to paint like the old masters. Nor am I trying to paint like a great artist. I'm painting the way I did as a 4 and 5 year old. I'm painting the way I did when I knew nothing of the world at all except what a child has had time enough to see. My style is coming back, the paintings I do now look like a child painted them. But I am painting again. I'm back to using water color and construction paper. In fact the day I wrote here about my early life as an artist and described the 2 young boys, one a native indian from 500 years past the other a european decent modern boy somehow seeing each other and each others river by meeting in a near by river. I painted this scene. There was a sun in the sky and the yellow light rays shone down upon the Inian boy and his river, there are fish swimming around and 3 seagulls in the air. There is a backdrop along the entire river of trees on the far river bank. The modern boy is walking in the same river but he is in the present day. The sun does not shine on his river, the sky is kind of dark, the water is darker and polluted with beer cans, bottles and in the river lies a wreaked row boat and a car tire stuck in the mud in a half foot depth of water near the shore.

I'm not sure this painting get's my meaning accross. I did it as a rough draft.But I did it. I will admit that this is the 3rd time in five years that I have tried to paint this particulat idea. This is the first time that I got it finished and complete. It seems this thread somehow inspired me to get to work. So I am very thankfull to each and every member who particapated and I believe I learned from them all.
-Peter
Then Peter, pretend you are six, keep doing and stretching the boundaries as a child dose. Remember they don't accept the word 'no' they just try a different way. Choose a subject, one that causes you some emotional reaction, hunger maybe and keep translating that into your art, share it and grow with the play time, it is great fun.

And what I like about this forum, it is all about the pictures...

Victor
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
 
I think what I said here is in fact why I was promted to start this thread. I had read another post about M10 and ISO12,800 and it just woke me up to the fact that everyone just want's more and more of a good thing, no matter what is going on around them and the damage caused by too much of a good thing. That would be continued unrestraind technology. I appreciate you taking the time and commenting about this.
-Peter
I suspect some of the chemicals used in film processing are not very good for the environment either. OTOH I'd agree that quality traditional cameras that have a long useful life are probably less harmful than cameras that get discarded after a few years. However I'm sure the computer you are using to read this is just as harmful to the environment as any digital camera - what is the average luseful lifespan of a PC these days?

I also don't quite see how manufacturing an M10 with kind of features the OP suggested would be any more harmful than continuing to manufacture M9s.

Perhaps there will be some who use these cameras to document and comment on the kind of unrestrained consumerism and environmental degredation you mention which could encourage more people to start looking around and thinking.
  • C
More, give us more and more that's a typical mantra of people everywhere. Even though what already exists is fine in every respect and is capable in every respect of producing quality. More more we want more ISO204,800 is next. Then in just a few years there will be no limit on available light photography. Now, finally we can all produce masterpieces. We can photograph everything anytime. No matter that the worlds dwindling resources will be struggling to sustain life on this planet. We went out swinging/snapping!

I think it's time all the selfish people start looking around at this earth and put an end to the more is better mantra. There are oih, so many more worthy things for our efforts other than more ISO for our cameras.

I guess you think having the ability to take pictures at night is worth throwing away the health of the planet.

The window on the envirnment is closing and we are still babling on about such things.

That's my point, really , what we have is already good enough, time now for humanity to address the real environmental problems caused by this technology. But people go on and on, give us more, we don't care about anything but our greedy desires. It's really disgusting. Are you going to argue that there is no environmental problem caused by our technology?
What the OP want's in the next digital Leica the M10 is so very important and the world will place this before safeguarding the environment. Why? Because there is money to be made by these industrial companies, they will meet the demands of all the affluent individuals for more technology, this they will do anyday before actually looking after the environment.
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
 
that's my point Victor I don't know what your talking about.

10 years ago my position was as a fibre storage engineer

so anyway I'm still waiting for you to add some meat to the bones of your claim,
but don't fear I won't wait long as I know full well it's junk.
Well then you should know what I am talking about, maybe you have a short memory. What I am sure you will know is that the technology has advanced substantially in the last decade, which is my point. Nothing is final, there is another approach that may not yet be discovered.

Are you an engineer?

Victor
--
http://racketphotography.com/The-Racket-Collection

http://bbphotochallenge.com/BBPhotochallenge/index.php?cat=2
 
I created my Flickr gallery for my daughter. I have not been a flikr member for a few years and in fact I forgot all about it. But anyway, as I said during this thread...I do not and have never been satisfied with my photoraphy and do not myself consider my self a photographer of note.

But reat assured Kabe, a few years ago when I was making the flikr images I did recieve personal e-mails praising some of my work. Never a single sour note from anyone.In fact there was a man from spain who wrote an internet article on my photography and posted a few of my images into it. He found my work amazing. You don't like what you see? Ok, that's one (1) against. I'm not concereed about you. I remember you from when I posted an image of a very sick friend outside a local hospital. The picture was taken at night at ISO6400 using my Nikon D1H. You went after me about that image and in general you were extremly critical. Again, you were the only one who behaved in such a manor. I think the image is still thre in the flikr site, The sick man name is Ed. So honestly at my age I know when I meet someone that no matter what I say and do will not agree or like. You have shown yourself to be a person like that. I'm not alone when it comes to meeting people who act like you. So my point is, you do not bother me. However if you meant it when you would like to see my art then you are welcome to do so.

It's still summer time where I live on Long Island N.Y. You want to see my art? Better yet, why not bring your camera, or use one of mine and we can go down to the local Nissaquague River in Kings Park/Smithtown and take some images along the river shore. It's beautifull at all seasons.. I'll bring a my water color paints and some 24" x 36" water color paper/construction paper and I'll do a painting as you explore this beautifull river. If you get any landscape images you like we can print them on my 24" x 36" large format HP printer in color. Then we can compare your photo alongside my painting and notice the differences and also what we like about each.
-Peter
Starving for your art makes you either a poor artist, a poor businessman, or both. And, guess what, none of it has anything at all to do with the tools of your trade. An artist can (and will) accomplish wondrous things with the most meager of tools. That you are so hung up on film versus digital clearly distinguishes you as little more than the equal and opposite response to the DSLR-toting newbies you disclaim: a film-era troglodyte irrationally convinced that what's old is inherently better, more artistic.

Nonsense!

You want to figure out what you want to say with your art? Start by saying something that pertains to life, love, humanity...just don't be foolish enough to think what you use to make your "art" has anything at all to do with how well you communicate the ideas that should underpin your art.

Starving artists either have nothing to say, or not a clue how to reach a wide enough audience to begin and sustain a substantive (and ultimately lucrative) dialogue. Blaming shifts in the fundamental nature of your industry won't get you over the hump.

And before we go any further, I would LOVE to see some of YOUR art, however imperfect. I would like to see what you've coaxed from a lifetime of being on the cusp. I assume it's not the contents of your Flickr gallery?
As an artist since 4 and 5 years old I ask those who posted comments about art vs photography do you have more real paintings hung on your walls than photographs/prints?

Do not presume to lecture me as I have starved and even been hospitalized due to satarving as an artist. I have dedicated my life to art.

If people would buy more paintings I would have more food and so would the other artists. But they don't do they? People have many photo's and prints but few real paintings and sculptures. There are exceptions, there always are so that means nothing.
I see that film is real photography and it is not high ISO digital imaging.
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
--
- -
Kabe Luna

http://www.garlandcary.com
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
 
Agreed
Digital...film...high ISO...low ISO...

Its all about capturing slivers of time....

Media used may change...even from digital some day.

Capturing the moment will never change.

Roman
--

“There is only you and your camera. The limitations in your photography are in yourself, for what we see is what we are.”
~ Ernst Haas

New Web Presence Coming Soon:
http://blog.commercialfineart.com/

Old Web Site
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
 
I have many digital cameras and I like them But last night I did get cought up more than I thought I would in the word photographer and how that applies to a digital sensored camera. It was me who called these cameras machines and felt that the term photographer should refer to low film work, especially because tradionally ISO400 is the common max. I'm aware of ISO3200 film but normally we don't load our cameras with it. The term digital imager should refer to a camera person who can use very high ISO's above 25,600 through 102,400 and even higher. Since such a machine should work in light to dim for us to see in.

But that was last night and tonight I'm not wanting to start a new term to describe photography so I appologize. It's not the gear it's the eye.
there are various situations where one might one more DOF requiring smaller apertures all this in low light. Often such shots are not possible below ISO 1600 or even more. There will also be various situations requiring fast shutter speed to freeze action all the while in sub-optimal lighting. In such cases it is nice to know that IQ remains very good up to say 12'800 or 25'600 or more so there is some margin if one shoots at 3'200 or 6'400.

and then there are all those even more special situations which might actually require 12'800 or more, such as circus, various other shows, rock concerts.

no one prevents you from refusing to accept this additional help and stick with ISO 400 film which obviously can yield superb results especially when used with Leica glass.

the only bit of your message that surprises me, is your dismissal of "digital machines" as something that would be bad. Digital has given millions of people access to the feedback loop that was previously largely only available to pros who were the only ones who would go through 10 rolls of film having written down the settings on each shot and then improve (normal people having neither the time nor the money). It's wonderful that the average Joe (with some interest in taking better photographs) can play and immediately see the lesser DOF of larger apertures, the effect of pushing Exposure Compensation up a notch, you name it.
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
 
which you'll only end up apologizing for the day after.

if your going to say something in a public forum then the lest you can do it to stick to it.

By definition there is photography and then there is digital photography
What you say here is exactly the subject of a new thread I was considering last night. It's actually more about photography than the gear. Here is my idea in brief. Let me know if you think it would make a good topic for a new thread. You know, actually discussing technique, not the gear. For us to use our digital cameras according to the Sunny 16 Rules, Set the camera to M, set the ISO to 200/400, set the shutter speed to 200/400. Now control your exposure using your aperture on the manual lens. I know that you know that there are apertures between the click stop settings, so you can even do EV compensation this way. Lucky us we havs a good LCD and histogram to check the dark arwas for proper exposure and of course to keep an eye out for overexposure.

I'm using my R-D1 like this and it's a good feeling to know it's my understading of exposure that is getting the result I want. Auto everything is fine for general photography when you do not really care about a certain part of the image, but if you want that part to come out right it's better to take over and do things in all manual mode and this technique.

I use my Russian made copies of the Leica III series LTM cameras. They have no light meter and must be used according to the Sunny 16 Rules. So far I have gotten properly exposed images. Now a digital rangefinder used the same way on account of the LCD and histogram is a lot of fun. I am getting better exposed images this way than if I let the camera do everything. This is a good topic for all and I think those who particapate in such a thread will enjoy exchanging ideas without all the fighting for a change. After all, what would there be to fight about. Also, for those newer photograhers who are still learning the basics it may help them to clear up some of there issues and lead to better photography for them as well.
-Peter
Your conditions needed before pushing the shutter are my carry overs from film. As a result my cameras don't have as many actuations as some report on the forums....;-)
--
Bob
Exactly! I have problems setting exposure modes to anything other than manual. This too a carry-over from film.

I am a firm believer in habitual behavior. If I start to practice to just "record" photos without exposure and composition in mind for each click of the shutter, say during a birthday party, I will most likely see my intended photography lack in exposure and composition.

Sports are generally not an easy subject because of the pace of the action and limited positions the photographer/digital imager can be. Lighting conditions also pose a challenge. Wedding Photographers also battle with the same constraints. I thank the manufacturers for the ability to have the photographic equipment to do this type of photography, whether someone calls it photography or not.

Ray

P.S. I did not intend to convey that a rangefinder could do the posted shot. The intent was that the game of football takes on a life of its own, on and off of the field. There are moments and situations you could probably use a pin-hole camera to take a picture of a football "game." (This sounds like an interesting idea.)
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes
--
http://racketphotography.com/The-Racket-Collection

http://bbphotochallenge.com/BBPhotochallenge/index.php?cat=2
 
Just like an engineer avoid the point, it matters not that you don't recall a reported barrier to hard disk capacity growth. The point is every time a barrier is created, it is passed. So we are reaching the limit of the physics, only applies to the current design of sensors.

There seems to be something strange in the education of engineers, I have worked with many and only a very small number are able to rise above the detail, interestingly those few have been outstandingly successful. So put away your details and appreciate that an immaginative open minded engineer is looking at the sensor in a completely different way then the current set of engineering followers.

Yes I do like engineers, but only the human ones who are in touch with their emotions.

Victor
 
oh Victory pull your head out why don't you, the stink is really no good for your health.

I called your bluff, simple, you did your pitiful best to worm your way out of producing facts.

go away little man, you lost

well unless your next witty retort is to put your money where your mouth is
Just like an engineer avoid the point, it matters not that you don't recall a reported barrier to hard disk capacity growth. The point is every time a barrier is created, it is passed. So we are reaching the limit of the physics, only applies to the current design of sensors.

There seems to be something strange in the education of engineers, I have worked with many and only a very small number are able to rise above the detail, interestingly those few have been outstandingly successful. So put away your details and appreciate that an immaginative open minded engineer is looking at the sensor in a completely different way then the current set of engineering followers.

Yes I do like engineers, but only the human ones who are in touch with their emotions.

Victor
--
http://racketphotography.com/The-Racket-Collection

http://bbphotochallenge.com/BBPhotochallenge/index.php?cat=2
 
Vicky, so you think your the next Henri Cartier Bresson lol
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1038&message=35876730

you must live alone because there's no way anyone could share a house with you and your ego.

I've looked at your gallery and you are no Henri Cartier Bresson, his mum maybe, with a gallery like yours you really shouldn't be throwing stones at other peoples photographs.

once you've finished having a bit of a cry maybe you can comeback with some load of junk that will no doubt make you feel better.

but here's hoping you don't
 
A photograph (often shortened to photo) is an image created by light falling on a light-sensitive surface, usually photographic film or an electronic imager such as a CCD or a CMOS chip. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photograph

Yawn :O
 
such an engineer, miss the point totally, rush off down the rat hole of the example and miss the subject. I'm not inclined to do the research to find a ten year old report, that was obviously wrong - my point. But just like an engineer you resort to insult.

I'll assume your silence on the real point I was making as complicity.

Now let me explain the problem. this thread is all about Peter's opinion, it is a good opinion, I don't agree with it but I can still appreciate his position. But, you are trying to present an absolute position, well you don't have the humility or authority to state what Photography is.

It takes a lot of imagination to be a good photographer. You need less imagination to be a painter because you can invent things. But in photography everything is so ordinary; it takes a lot of looking before you learn to see the extraordinary. David Bailey

Another lesson for you; communication is not what you write; it is what people understand from reading your words. The same applies to a photograph or music and sculpture. Clearly you failed to even read past the analogy to my point, so my communication failed for you, even though I have stated it twice now, let me put it again in very simple terms.

When you think you have reached the limit, someone else will come along and stretch the limits beyond your imagination.

This is not a competition, it is not about winning or losing, open your mind to the discussion and learn...
 
Clearly you can't read, no sense of humour, thread was a bit of fun. This is a common reaction, sadly that when the intellect fails you turn to insult and violence. I have seen it many times, I would not expect you to like my work, but then many do and my work sells well to professional buyers.

Also I am not rude about people photographs, is that what you would expect, sad. Nor have I been accused of being rude! If I like a photo then I'll say so, if I can engage the photographer in a conversation I like to know if they are communicating what they want to with the picture.

Have you worked this out yet?
 

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