D3100: beginning of the end for ALL other current Nikon bodies?

D3100 is a new toy for big kids. These kids buy nice specs.

D700/D3s/D3x are tools to do the job. These who buy them know what and why they need.

On the other hand - this is the progres. Introduction of a new model is already a begining of its end. Some guys really need HD video - they will get it sooner or later. Others may just not use it.

--
http://www.leonardas.net
 
My thought is that you don't really understand the higher end Nikon lineup. They are picture camera's not video camera's. I hate the idea of video. It's a waste for 90% of the people who are serious photographers. Megapixels are a marketing tool at this point in time imho. I can do anything with my D700 that I could ever need. 12mp is more than enough! Now take the D3100 and shoot a wedding in a dimly lit church and see how ISO 1600 or 3200 works out. That's what I'm paying for when I buy a camera. Fast AF and clean high ISO
 
I fully agree with comments that photography is more than gadgetry, but it is not helpful to stick one's head under the sand either.

In the fine art photography world video is making major inroads: juried competitions are starting to accept both videos and prints vying for the same slots on exhibits. The availability of the technology is creating new markets (and squeezing existing ones).

What stunned me about the D3100 announcement is that Nikon chose to feature the HD video and the higher MP on a clearly consumer oriented camera.

--
Best Regards,
Renato

'The world is going to pieces and people like Adams and Weston are photographing rocks.' Henri Cartier Bresson, in the 1930's
 
Not unlike a laptop or A/V receiver, digital cameras are just another rapidly changing consumer electronic. Every few months a new one comes out that is better, in subtle to dramatic ways, than the one we already have. They depreciate rapidly, within a few years the one you paid big $$$ for looks like an antique and is worth a fraction of what you paid.

Most often pro-grade features drop in price and find their way into the lower cost models. That said, Nikon has shown a pattern of introducing some pretty cool features in the lower cost models. Maybe they are going after the high-volume revenue first, maybe responding to competition, maybe the components (LCD, sensor, video, etc) advanced at a different pace than the ideal Nikon release schedule, maybe Nikon's just refining the tech on less demanding consumers before releasing it in pro gear. Maybe it's all of the above at one time or another.

One thing you can be sure of, when a new model is introduced to us, the engineers at Nikon are already working on its replacement. I'd say all of this means the D4 and D800 will be exciting cameras, and just maybe as amazing as the D3 and D700 were when they were introduced.

Cheers,
JB
I think that the writing is on the wall: if an under $700 camera body with otherwise "rudimentary" features such as an 11 point AF and a 3 fps continuous rate gets HD video and a megapixel boost to 14, megabucks professional bodies with 12 megapixels and no HD video start looking dangerously like a thing of the past. Even (oh my!) 24 MP bodies without HD video more and more "ancien regime"...

Any thoughts?

How long will the outstanding quality of the high ISO D700/D3 and especially D3s remain unmatched?

How long will professional studio types put up with a no video D3x when their client's kids have access to HD??

--
Best Regards,
Renato

'The world is going to pieces and people like Adams and Weston are photographing rocks.' Henri Cartier Bresson, in the 1930's
 
Explanation of Nikon during the introduction was,

Although they did not mention the models specifically, they said that entry level models of the compatition (Eos Kiss X4) offering HD video are getting really popular to have both vstill camera and video offering in an entry level model, the 3100 is an answer to that.

The D3100 really feels as an upgrade to the D3000, I think it can be an incredible strong competitor to that of the Canon and Sony offers, at least here in Japan.

In the fine arts photography world any one uses the tool he/she needs to use or want to use to get a specific creative result, from that of a Yashica Mat 124 or to that of a Hasselblad H3 and everything between. We should not put our head in the sand and say that everything which is aimed at professional usage is only used by professionals or artists. And seeing the video results Iof the 3100, it might be an excellent camera to create 'professional' video results with it as well.

Michel
I fully agree with comments that photography is more than gadgetry, but it is not helpful to stick one's head under the sand either.

In the fine art photography world video is making major inroads: juried competitions are starting to accept both videos and prints vying for the same slots on exhibits. The availability of the technology is creating new markets (and squeezing existing ones).

What stunned me about the D3100 announcement is that Nikon chose to feature the HD video and the higher MP on a clearly consumer oriented camera.

--
Best Regards,
Renato

'The world is going to pieces and people like Adams and Weston are photographing rocks.' Henri Cartier Bresson, in the 1930's
--

Disclaimer: Posts written by me are my views, ideas and opinions only, and should not be taken as facts, unless stated otherwise. :-)

Light is everything


http://www.fotopropaganda.com
http://www.fotopropaganda.com/fotopropaganda-blog/
http://www.pbase.com/photopropaganda
 
JB,

What you wrote is what I would have posted in the first place... if I only had been able to think it through as clearly as you did.

Thanks a lot!
--
Best Regards,
Renato

'The world is going to pieces and people like Adams and Weston are photographing rocks.' Henri Cartier Bresson, in the 1930's
 
Michel,

"Explanation of Nikon during the introduction was,

Although they did not mention the models specifically, they said that entry level models of the compatition (Eos Kiss X4) offering HD video are getting really popular to have both vstill camera and video offering in an entry level model, the 3100 is an answer to that.

The D3100 really feels as an upgrade to the D3000, I think it can be an incredible strong competitor to that of the Canon and Sony offers, at least here in Japan."

I missed this, it does explain the choices made with the D3100, it also clearly shows that Nikon has a very viable HD available for future use in their high end bodies

"In the fine arts photography world any one uses the tool he/she needs to use or want to use to get a specific creative result, from that of a Yashica Mat 124 or to that of a Hasselblad H3 and everything between."

Very true, FA photographers are using monorail cameras, Holgas and what else they see fit. A very accomplished one here in Houston is using a Diana camera exclusively.

" We should not put our head in the sand and say that everything which is aimed at professional usage is only used by professionals or artists. And seeing the video results of the 3100, it might be an excellent camera to create 'professional' video results with it as well."

Once the camera has been around some and more real world user experience is available, I may get one to use for video.

Thanks a lot for your input.

--
Best Regards,
Renato

'The world is going to pieces and people like Adams and Weston are photographing rocks.' Henri Cartier Bresson, in the 1930's
 
Hi Renato,

I think the surprise of the market as Nikon promised, still has to come. As some one hinted (not from Nikon) it might be an entry level FF camera due to the lenses coming out or a compact hybrid camera probable aimed for Photokina.

Nikon mentioned it is a newly developed sensor by Nikon, so I think also by that it is not same as some of the competition (Sony.) Im not a tech freak, so it might be that Thom or others have some finer details soon about the sensor development on this sensor. Nikon never explains in detail who or where the sensor is made if its coming from.
Michel
Michel,

"Explanation of Nikon during the introduction was,

Although they did not mention the models specifically, they said that entry level models of the compatition (Eos Kiss X4) offering HD video are getting really popular to have both vstill camera and video offering in an entry level model, the 3100 is an answer to that.

The D3100 really feels as an upgrade to the D3000, I think it can be an incredible strong competitor to that of the Canon and Sony offers, at least here in Japan."

I missed this, it does explain the choices made with the D3100, it also clearly shows that Nikon has a very viable HD available for future use in their high end bodies

"In the fine arts photography world any one uses the tool he/she needs to use or want to use to get a specific creative result, from that of a Yashica Mat 124 or to that of a Hasselblad H3 and everything between."

Very true, FA photographers are using monorail cameras, Holgas and what else they see fit. A very accomplished one here in Houston is using a Diana camera exclusively.

" We should not put our head in the sand and say that everything which is aimed at professional usage is only used by professionals or artists. And seeing the video results of the 3100, it might be an excellent camera to create 'professional' video results with it as well."

Once the camera has been around some and more real world user experience is available, I may get one to use for video.

Thanks a lot for your input.

--
Best Regards,
Renato

'The world is going to pieces and people like Adams and Weston are photographing rocks.' Henri Cartier Bresson, in the 1930's
--

Disclaimer: Posts written by me are my views, ideas and opinions only, and should not be taken as facts, unless stated otherwise. :-)

Light is everything


http://www.fotopropaganda.com
http://www.fotopropaganda.com/fotopropaganda-blog/
http://www.pbase.com/photopropaganda
 
I think that the writing is on the wall: if an under $700 camera body with otherwise "rudimentary" features such as an 11 point AF and a 3 fps continuous rate gets HD video and a megapixel boost to 14, megabucks professional bodies with 12 megapixels and no HD video start looking dangerously like a thing of the past. Even (oh my!) 24 MP bodies without HD video more and more "ancien regime"...

Any thoughts?
You seem rather ignorant.
How long will the outstanding quality of the high ISO D700/D3 and especially D3s remain unmatched?

How long will professional studio types put up with a no video D3x when their client's kids have access to HD??

--
Best Regards,
Renato

'The world is going to pieces and people like Adams and Weston are photographing rocks.' Henri Cartier Bresson, in the 1930's
 
He's very ignant... But: Ignorance is bliss.

Doesn't grasp that every model gets updated eventually and the D3100 will yet again be the bottom of the barrel in a year or so. If you believe you as a pro should sell your D3x for a D3100, then you should really ask yourself what it is you are doing and why you bought the D3x to begin with.

--
Ai-S all the way!
 
Hi Renato,

I think the surprise of the market as Nikon promised, still has to come. As some one hinted (not from Nikon) it might be an entry level FF camera due to the lenses coming out or a compact hybrid camera probable aimed for Photokina.

Nikon mentioned it is a newly developed sensor by Nikon, so I think also by that it is not same as some of the competition (Sony.) Im not a tech freak, so it might be that Thom or others have some finer details soon about the sensor development on this sensor. Nikon never explains in detail who or where the sensor is made if its coming from.
The sensor is not a Sony, I've shown the evidence in several posts. Thom wrongly says it's the Sony NEX sensor on his website, and so have a few other sources. I think they've just made an understandable but incorrect deduction based on the same pixel count. I have emailed Thom to ask where the information came from, I'll see what he says.

In any case, as Nikon's first ever consumer camera with a Nikon sensor, the D3100 is hugely significant, and a game changer. In the consumer markets, Nikon's product offerings have always been constrained by what Sony has to offer on the sensor front. Now, Nikon is freed of those constraints. Some of the consequences can be seen - at a stroke, Nikon has overcome its previous video limitations. If this sensor has the sema quantum efficiency as the D3S sensor, it will be the best APS-C sensor for low light yet.

As to Nikon's product development directions, it removes many of the constraints that would have been there in the past. Maybe Nikon will continue using the same MP count across most of the DX range, or maybe it will switch to a policy of increasing the megapixel count up the range. They may develop another new sensor for the D90 replacement (18MP + to beat the 60D?). They may go up to 2k video capability. Who knows, the constraints are off, but my bet is:

i) A higher MP DX sensor for the D90 and D300s replacements (D7000 and D9000?). This would need to be competitive with the higher end Canon APS-C cameras, and 14.2 isn't enough. I would think 20MP, given that generally Nikon has more MP than Canon at the beginning of a generation.

ii) A 24-25MP FX sensor to go in the D3s and D700 replacements (D4 and D800?). The new EXPEED may well handle this kind of pixel count at 9-10FPS, and would provide the D4 with similar reach to the 1DIV, which is the major area the D3s is deficient.

iii) a 34.6MP FX sensor for the D4X (just re-uning the pixels off the D3100 sensor).
Plus, of course, whatever's requred for the EVIL, rumoured to be 2.5x crop.
 
Many (not all) current model owners need defend their gear as being best. When I read some of the more personal responses I know its coming from this place but still regret reading replies like "you are ignorant" or "know nothing" despite disclaimers in the OP

Not being an owner yet, I have nothing to defend - all I can say is as a guest.

1. Higher resolution.

I hope that pro models will receive higher resolution than 14mp. Canon with its 550d went from 12 to 18mp and in the review here on DPReview it was mentioned that there is higher level of details but its a minor one. 12 to 14 is nothing but a lip service - an insult to the intelligence of new waiting owners to be.

2. Video.

So many attack it as something they don't need. I don't need it too but my mind already sees the creative potentials. If you are into art, go to a contemporary department of any museum and see how how big video (mostly by 5dmk2) had become and how talented photographers use it. My guess is when we say we don't need HD video we are actually saying something else. Can't speak for other but I say: "I still have a way to grow with still and enjoy it immensely but who knows what future will bring for me…" So yes, have HD video in my next camera have it as good as in the 5dmk2 or better and let it seat and wait for me until I am ready for it… sometime, not now I will not want to get another camera to add it.

--
Ruvy
http://www.ruvyamir.co.il
recent albums at:
http://www.ruvyamir.co.il/gallery , http://picasaweb.google.com/home?tab=mq
older: http://www.pbase.com/ruvy ,
 
and i think he just means the timeline in general... if a low end body is getting features pro bodies had 3 years ago now.. how long before the current pro bodies are a thing of the past (with new ones out of course.).. make sense? LOL. i dont think he meant that the D3100 is replacing EVERY Nikon model out there. lol
--
D700 & D300, various lenses.
Erm, then why did he write ALL in capitals?
 
Hi Tyrone,

I miss a bit your Nikon D3X sensor expectation in your story..remember? :-) I discovered during the introduction of the d3100 that Nikon uses 2 meanings, development and design ;-) It has different meanings with no double touch.

We will see what is coming out, I heard at least a lot of new rumours and hints, lets wait and see what is coming true out of a entry level FF, and a top of line DX camera with 16MP and similar video specs as 3100.

Im more interested how the hinted hybrid camera will work with our lenses 'standard' F mount lenses.

Michel
Hi Renato,

I think the surprise of the market as Nikon promised, still has to come. As some one hinted (not from Nikon) it might be an entry level FF camera due to the lenses coming out or a compact hybrid camera probable aimed for Photokina.

Nikon mentioned it is a newly developed sensor by Nikon, so I think also by that it is not same as some of the competition (Sony.) Im not a tech freak, so it might be that Thom or others have some finer details soon about the sensor development on this sensor. Nikon never explains in detail who or where the sensor is made if its coming from.
The sensor is not a Sony, I've shown the evidence in several posts. Thom wrongly says it's the Sony NEX sensor on his website, and so have a few other sources. I think they've just made an understandable but incorrect deduction based on the same pixel count. I have emailed Thom to ask where the information came from, I'll see what he says.

In any case, as Nikon's first ever consumer camera with a Nikon sensor, the D3100 is hugely significant, and a game changer. In the consumer markets, Nikon's product offerings have always been constrained by what Sony has to offer on the sensor front. Now, Nikon is freed of those constraints. Some of the consequences can be seen - at a stroke, Nikon has overcome its previous video limitations. If this sensor has the sema quantum efficiency as the D3S sensor, it will be the best APS-C sensor for low light yet.

As to Nikon's product development directions, it removes many of the constraints that would have been there in the past. Maybe Nikon will continue using the same MP count across most of the DX range, or maybe it will switch to a policy of increasing the megapixel count up the range. They may develop another new sensor for the D90 replacement (18MP + to beat the 60D?). They may go up to 2k video capability. Who knows, the constraints are off, but my bet is:

i) A higher MP DX sensor for the D90 and D300s replacements (D7000 and D9000?). This would need to be competitive with the higher end Canon APS-C cameras, and 14.2 isn't enough. I would think 20MP, given that generally Nikon has more MP than Canon at the beginning of a generation.

ii) A 24-25MP FX sensor to go in the D3s and D700 replacements (D4 and D800?). The new EXPEED may well handle this kind of pixel count at 9-10FPS, and would provide the D4 with similar reach to the 1DIV, which is the major area the D3s is deficient.

iii) a 34.6MP FX sensor for the D4X (just re-uning the pixels off the D3100 sensor).
Plus, of course, whatever's requred for the EVIL, rumoured to be 2.5x crop.
--

Disclaimer: Posts written by me are my views, ideas and opinions only, and should not be taken as facts, unless stated otherwise. :-)

Light is everything


http://www.fotopropaganda.com
http://www.fotopropaganda.com/fotopropaganda-blog/
http://www.pbase.com/photopropaganda
 
Im more interested how the hinted hybrid camera will work with our lenses 'standard' F mount lenses.

Michel
Hi Michel,

since there is very little chatter regarding this point, and every camera is "hybrid" now because it can do video, in what sense does this particular rumour mean "hybrid" ???
 
It was runoured that Nikon are working on a mirrorless DSLR and this will set the world alight.

Nikon are still advanced and really who the hell wants hd video in an SLR camera, chuck the junk and put real essence into building the finest shooter. If you want video then there are a whole load of video cameras to choose from.

You might as well say I can deliver bedroom suites in my Ford Fiesta, it is still a car not a truck, but I could tow a uhaul on the back of it.

I am a photographer and videographer I use proper cameras for the job in hand not a hybrid.
 
Hi Tyrone,

I miss a bit your Nikon D3X sensor expectation in your story..remember? :-)
Not sure what you mean. I still think it's on the cards Nikon will put the D3X sensor in a D700X, especially if they plan a 24MP D4, as I suspect. Both routes would give thyem the time to develop a high MP D4X sensor.
I discovered during the introduction of the d3100 that Nikon uses 2 meanings, development and design ;-) It has different meanings with no double touch.
It has said both that the D3100 sensor was designed by Nikon and that it was developed by Nikon in different information it has put out.

If you look at this post from Jeff-C: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=33785708

he reports the head of Nikon's design department as saying "we currently have two sensor sources: internally developed and external sourced and we plan on merging them". 'Developed' means a lot, and I am positive that the D3100 represents the first step of 'merging them'. It is an 'internally developed' sensor and not an 'external sourced' one.
We will see what is coming out, I heard at least a lot of new rumours and hints, lets wait and see what is coming true out of a entry level FF, and a top of line DX camera with 16MP and similar video specs as 3100.
Can't see the point of 16MP if you've already got 14MP. The difference is 7% linear, not enough to make another sensor worthwhile. IMO, it's either the same 14MP sensor or something in the 18-20MP range. My theory as to why the D3100 sensor is 14MP is that Nikon was hedging their bets. It is their first mass market sensor, and putting it in their highest volume product would have been a substantial risk. By designing around 14MP, they could have made a late switch to Sony had the development or productisation hit problems. For later sensors they will have proved the design and production process, so don't need that backup, thus they might be more adventurous.
Im more interested how the hinted hybrid camera will work with our lenses 'standard' F mount lenses.
If they're 2.5x, those lenses are going to do a very different job from what they were designed for.
 
Hi Tyrone,

I miss a bit your Nikon D3X sensor expectation in your story..remember? :-)
Not sure what you mean. I still think it's on the cards Nikon will put the D3X sensor in a D700X, especially if they plan a 24MP D4, as I suspect. Both routes would give thyem the time to develop a high MP D4X sensor.
I discovered during the introduction of the d3100 that Nikon uses 2 meanings, development and design ;-) It has different meanings with no double touch.
It has said both that the D3100 sensor was designed by Nikon and that it was developed by Nikon in different information it has put out.

If you look at this post from Jeff-C: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=33785708

he reports the head of Nikon's design department as saying "we currently have two sensor sources: internally developed and external sourced and we plan on merging them". 'Developed' means a lot, and I am positive that the D3100 represents the first step of 'merging them'. It is an 'internally developed' sensor and not an 'external sourced' one.
We will see what is coming out, I heard at least a lot of new rumours and hints, lets wait and see what is coming true out of a entry level FF, and a top of line DX camera with 16MP and similar video specs as 3100.
Can't see the point of 16MP if you've already got 14MP. The difference is 7% linear, not enough to make another sensor worthwhile. IMO, it's either the same 14MP sensor or something in the 18-20MP range. My theory as to why the D3100 sensor is 14MP is that Nikon was hedging their bets. It is their first mass market sensor, and putting it in their highest volume product would have been a substantial risk. By designing around 14MP, they could have made a late switch to Sony had the development or productisation hit problems. For later sensors they will have proved the design and production process, so don't need that backup, thus they might be more adventurous.
Im more interested how the hinted hybrid camera will work with our lenses 'standard' F mount lenses.
If they're 2.5x, those lenses are going to do a very different job from what they were designed for.
Lets face it Canon is the competition Nr 1 to Nikon.

We can be pretty safe to say that they will pull ahead side by side for some time and if Nikon doesnt have to use sensors that are devolped from the outside that makes it a little easier.
Canon eos1 ds Mk 4 and D4x will be about same MP count and thats pretty likely
to be 36 MP.... I said that yesterday in the other thread....
Peter
 
What?

It is not going to end any Nikon bodies. Image quality in new bodies certainly keep improving with each new release, but the handling of the camera is still the same. A D3100 still handle the same as a D3000. It won't match the Ergonomics and fast responsiveness of D3/D700.

I don't think D3100's image quality will match that of D700 either.
I think that the writing is on the wall: if an under $700 camera body with otherwise "rudimentary" features such as an 11 point AF and a 3 fps continuous rate gets HD video and a megapixel boost to 14, megabucks professional bodies with 12 megapixels and no HD video start looking dangerously like a thing of the past. Even (oh my!) 24 MP bodies without HD video more and more "ancien regime"...

Any thoughts?

How long will the outstanding quality of the high ISO D700/D3 and especially D3s remain unmatched?

How long will professional studio types put up with a no video D3x when their client's kids have access to HD??

--
Best Regards,
Renato

'The world is going to pieces and people like Adams and Weston are photographing rocks.' Henri Cartier Bresson, in the 1930's
 
So what exactly is the point except as a trap for simple minded people who conclude 14MP is superior to 12MP? YES, the trick might work well in a foto-supermarket.
Exactly. If target audience cannot get difference between good metering/focusing and mediocre one; if such audience do not value of ability of using multi flashes or FL; if they believe that "feature" that require going into deep menu to activate/deactivate it is real "feature" and that 14MP vs 12MP is real advantage, then yes, it will spell doom of semi-pro market for such audience . I would be only happy if Nikon differentiate their bodies in such way. Though it is double-edged sword. From one side it is good - hopefully manufactures stop stuffing higher-end model with unnecessarily gizmoz to please "market" (read "herd"), yes, I am talking video here. But from another side that even future shrink market of pro and semi-pro bodies that ultimately drive prices even higher - not that good new for keen amateurs.
OK if you need HD movies get a camera that is capable of HD movies.
I am very happy that they put HD video in entry-level camera. And yes, if I even get curious, I could pick-up back-up body with video. Actually cropped video-enable simple and light body seems like perfect addition to D700.

Cheets
 

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