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What does the D3100 portend for the D90?

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Brooks P

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The D3100 introduces a 14MP sensor that appears, on the surface, to eclipse Nikon’s current APS-C sensors. The Live View (LV) and Video Mode (VM) also top the other offerings. So how does Nikon address this with the D90/300s/5000 replacements?

Unless I’m missing something I don’t see that Sony has an APS-C sensor that is greater than 14MP. Nikon is not likely to put the Sony 14MP in the D90 replacement now that it is in the D3100, much less in the D300s replacement. Canon has an 18MP APS-C sensor and it stands to reason that since Canon is the primary competitor that Nikon will want to keep them in sight. Sony appears to be out of the picture as the supplier, so does that mean there is a possibility that Nikon might introduce their own sensor, maybe something in the 18MP range?

Better LV and VM seem to be a given, at least as good as the D3100, and very possibly even better.
Other thoughts?
--

While amateurs change the camera’s settings; many Pro’s prefer to change the light.

Brooks
http://bmiddleton.smugmug.com/
 
Brooks P said:
Unless I’m missing something I don’t see that Sony has an APS-C sensor that is greater than 14MP.
Click to expand...
If you believe the rumors, Sony will be introducing a 16.7MP camera at Photokina (the α55). The D90 replacement rumors have hinted at 16MP, so it's possible this is where the sensor will come from.
 
What you can be sure of is that the whole DX range must be undergoing rapid change because Nikon would not allow the 3100 to cannibalise sales further up the range which is where they make the majority of their sales and revenue. They must have some good stuff up their sleeves still.

I guess I am bit surprised that they never put the D90 sensor into the 3100 at a crazy low price point then put the new sensor into the D5000.
 
Wellington100 said:
I guess I am bit surprised that they never put the D90 sensor into the 3100 at a crazy low price point ...
Click to expand...
My impression is that the marketplace has generally determined that selling an SLR for less than $500 doesn't work. Even at current prices, it seems that they're already having NO problem selling every camera they can pump out. Dropping the entry price point further would lead to empty shelves, not more overall sales. And it especially wouldn't attract the lucrative "enthusiast" customers (those that will buy add-ons, where the real profit lies).

--
http://www.benseese.com
 
Thom Hogan today published sales figures for the Japanese home market; this is for cameras with interchangeable lenses. “Nikon and Canon have switched places again in Japan. Canon's loses come at the gains of Panasonic, Olympus, and Pentax. Sony also slid (this was before the NEX sales started).” Nikon went from 31.3% of the market to 34%, while Canon went from 39.1% to 31.4%.

“More interesting in light of Nikon's upcoming product announcements is that the number one model in terms of sales share in Japan was the D90. Nikon's order of sales went D90 (13% of market), D5000 (10.6%), D3000 (7.9%), D300s (1.3%). That's sort of top outselling bottom. But look at the Canon numbers: T1i (11.5%), T2i (9.7%), 7D (3.5%). That's bottom outsells top. You can see why Nikon might think that the upcoming D3100 intro is a big thing: the bottom two Nikons sell 18.5% of the market at home versus Canon's bottom two getting 21.4%. If Nikon wants to pull more share away from Canon in Japan, they need a "hotter" low end camera.”

Thom goes on with market information concerning the mirrorless cameras – performing well in Japan, but the sales have been “sluggish” worldwide. Read the entire blog at http://bythom.com/

--

While amateurs change the camera’s settings; many Pro’s prefer to change the light.

Brooks
http://bmiddleton.smugmug.com/
 
are the one who is wrong. If the sensor was a Nikon sensor then Nikon would have taken credit for it in the press release, they did not. They specifically took credit for a new EXPEED processor, but conveniently did not mention who designed or produced the sensor. Nikon can generally be counted upon to step up and take credit where credit is due – they don’t lose many chances to pat themselves on the back or toot their own horn.
--

While amateurs change the camera’s settings; many Pro’s prefer to change the light.

Brooks
http://bmiddleton.smugmug.com/
 
Brooks P said:
are the one who is wrong. If the sensor was a Nikon sensor then Nikon would have taken credit for it in the press release, they did not. They specifically took credit for a new EXPEED processor, but conveniently did not mention who designed or produced the sensor. Nikon can generally be counted upon to step up and take credit where credit is due – they don’t lose many chances to pat themselves on the back or toot their own horn.
Click to expand...
Read this:
http://www.nikon.com/about/news/2010/0819_d3100_01.htm

A new DX-format CMOS image sensor developed by Nikon and the new image-processing engine, EXPEED 2, have been adopted for the new D3100, enabling capture of images exhibiting excellent image quality and definition.

Pretty sure I'm right, it doesn't look like a Sony sensor and not like the NEX-5 sensor. Every previous Nikon sensor from Sony has looked just like the equivalent Sony sensor.
 
I had been following the Amazon charts for some time and the D3000 was the bestselling dslr there for most of the time, certainly now it will drop, given it's even rated as discontinued (body only at B&H). It was even among top10 for all digital cameras sold, not bad at all. (At moment I'm writing it's #1 among dslrs and #6 overall)

The D90 has been also at the top, both as kit and body only, #3 and 6 at moment.

Nikon has mentioned in the D3100 release note that the D3000 is the top selling dslr in Europe.

Recently Nikon reported that it would sell 4.2+ millon dslrs for the current year, a big increase from last year (something like 35% of all market).

It seems Nikon has taken the lead right now or is close to doing that. The release of D3100 and of D90+ soon will likely help them do it.

Not bad for a company that many had written off just a few years ago.
Brooks P said:
Thom Hogan today published sales figures for the Japanese home market; this is for cameras with interchangeable lenses. “Nikon and Canon have switched places again in Japan. Canon's loses come at the gains of Panasonic, Olympus, and Pentax. Sony also slid (this was before the NEX sales started).” Nikon went from 31.3% of the market to 34%, while Canon went from 39.1% to 31.4%.

“More interesting in light of Nikon's upcoming product announcements is that the number one model in terms of sales share in Japan was the D90. Nikon's order of sales went D90 (13% of market), D5000 (10.6%), D3000 (7.9%), D300s (1.3%). That's sort of top outselling bottom. But look at the Canon numbers: T1i (11.5%), T2i (9.7%), 7D (3.5%). That's bottom outsells top. You can see why Nikon might think that the upcoming D3100 intro is a big thing: the bottom two Nikons sell 18.5% of the market at home versus Canon's bottom two getting 21.4%. If Nikon wants to pull more share away from Canon in Japan, they need a "hotter" low end camera.”

Thom goes on with market information concerning the mirrorless cameras – performing well in Japan, but the sales have been “sluggish” worldwide. Read the entire blog at http://bythom.com/

--

While amateurs change the camera’s settings; many Pro’s prefer to change the light.

Brooks
http://bmiddleton.smugmug.com/
Click to expand...
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
The size of D3100 sensor is less than that of the NEX3 14MP sensor. The realease says it's Nikon designed. It has 1080p video, Sony's cameras have 1080i.

It seems Nikon is at least more involved in the development of the sensors, even if they are made by Sony.

There's a report of a new Sony camera with 16MP, so that there is such MP count in the Sony pipeline. That could be the D90's sensor, modified by Nikon.

The rumor is for ISO up to 25K, like D700 (??). It could also have other fps rates for video, that's likel to differentiate it from D3100.

My guess is:

Nikon 5000 stays for a while with reduced price.

D90+ in September as some say, 16MP, better body (mag alloy, 6-7 fps, more AF points)

Nikon 5100 early next year with same sensor as D3100 but better spec'd body and video.

About same time (D300s is looking awfully old now), D400 with same sensor as D90+, 14 bits and all other pro-line features (100% VF, etc, 8-9 fps, new AF system designed for D4).
Brooks P said:
The D3100 introduces a 14MP sensor that appears, on the surface, to eclipse Nikon’s current APS-C sensors. The Live View (LV) and Video Mode (VM) also top the other offerings. So how does Nikon address this with the D90/300s/5000 replacements?

Unless I’m missing something I don’t see that Sony has an APS-C sensor that is greater than 14MP. Nikon is not likely to put the Sony 14MP in the D90 replacement now that it is in the D3100, much less in the D300s replacement. Canon has an 18MP APS-C sensor and it stands to reason that since Canon is the primary competitor that Nikon will want to keep them in sight. Sony appears to be out of the picture as the supplier, so does that mean there is a possibility that Nikon might introduce their own sensor, maybe something in the 18MP range?

Better LV and VM seem to be a given, at least as good as the D3100, and very possibly even better.
Other thoughts?
--

While amateurs change the camera’s settings; many Pro’s prefer to change the light.

Brooks
http://bmiddleton.smugmug.com/
Click to expand...
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
Nikon has had a hand in developing every sensor that has gone into their models, but except for the D1, D2, D700, and D3s models the basic sensors have been Sony. The D300 had a sensor developed by Nikon, but the sensor is derived from the Sony IMX02, the D200 had a Nikon 4-channel sensor), which was nothing more than a 4-channel ICX483AQA. Unless Nikon has built an as yet unreported new plant I don’t see how they can produce APS-C sensors; the demand for sensors for the D700 and D3s stretches their production capabilities as it is now; they had to utilize Sony for sensors for the D3x. Both the D700 and D3s are produced in low volumn and Nikon can handle the production of the sensors.

The relationship between Sony and Nikon has been a symbiotic one, Sony producing the sensors, and Nikon producing the Steppers used to manufacture ICs.

--

While amateurs change the camera’s settings; many Pro’s prefer to change the light.

Brooks
http://bmiddleton.smugmug.com/
 
Wow, following the evidence trail, I think Tyrone is right. From the Nikon site:

"The D3100 is equipped with a new Nikon DX-format CMOS image sensor and a new image-processing engine, EXPEED 2, both developed by Nikon."

I wonder if there was not a co-development to a certain point, so they are say...75% identical, and then Sony and Nikon finish the sensors their own ways or if Nikon went ahead and developed their own from the ground up.
Tyrone Wellhung said:
Brooks P said:
are the one who is wrong. If the sensor was a Nikon sensor then Nikon would have taken credit for it in the press release, they did not. They specifically took credit for a new EXPEED processor, but conveniently did not mention who designed or produced the sensor. Nikon can generally be counted upon to step up and take credit where credit is due – they don’t lose many chances to pat themselves on the back or toot their own horn.
Click to expand...
Read this:
http://www.nikon.com/about/news/2010/0819_d3100_01.htm

A new DX-format CMOS image sensor developed by Nikon and the new image-processing engine, EXPEED 2, have been adopted for the new D3100, enabling capture of images exhibiting excellent image quality and definition.

Pretty sure I'm right, it doesn't look like a Sony sensor and not like the NEX-5 sensor. Every previous Nikon sensor from Sony has looked just like the equivalent Sony sensor.
Click to expand...
--
OK, not so purely a hobby.
 
Renato, my previous posts on this were wrong. This is a Nikon sensor, not a Sony. I did some digging and posted what I found here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1034&message=36082589
Briefly, this is the D3100 sensor



it has all the connections at the ends, which is a sign of an analog interface sensor like the D3S



Not a digital interface sensor like all current SONY CMOS, including the D90



and the NEX-5



(the black border makes it hard to see the wire connections here, but they are just visible towards the top of the chip)
rhlpetrus said:
The size of D3100 sensor is less than that of the NEX3 14MP sensor. The realease says it's Nikon designed. It has 1080p video, Sony's cameras have 1080i.

It seems Nikon is at least more involved in the development of the sensors, even if they are made by Sony.

There's a report of a new Sony camera with 16MP, so that there is such MP count in the Sony pipeline. That could be the D90's sensor, modified by Nikon.

The rumor is for ISO up to 25K, like D700 (??). It could also have other fps rates for video, that's likel to differentiate it from D3100.

My guess is:

Nikon 5000 stays for a while with reduced price.

D90+ in September as some say, 16MP, better body (mag alloy, 6-7 fps, more AF points)

Nikon 5100 early next year with same sensor as D3100 but better spec'd body and video.

About same time (D300s is looking awfully old now), D400 with same sensor as D90+, 14 bits and all other pro-line features (100% VF, etc, 8-9 fps, new AF system designed for D4).
Brooks P said:
The D3100 introduces a 14MP sensor that appears, on the surface, to eclipse Nikon’s current APS-C sensors. The Live View (LV) and Video Mode (VM) also top the other offerings. So how does Nikon address this with the D90/300s/5000 replacements?

Unless I’m missing something I don’t see that Sony has an APS-C sensor that is greater than 14MP. Nikon is not likely to put the Sony 14MP in the D90 replacement now that it is in the D3100, much less in the D300s replacement. Canon has an 18MP APS-C sensor and it stands to reason that since Canon is the primary competitor that Nikon will want to keep them in sight. Sony appears to be out of the picture as the supplier, so does that mean there is a possibility that Nikon might introduce their own sensor, maybe something in the 18MP range?

Better LV and VM seem to be a given, at least as good as the D3100, and very possibly even better.
Other thoughts?
--

While amateurs change the camera’s settings; many Pro’s prefer to change the light.

Brooks
http://bmiddleton.smugmug.com/
Click to expand...
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
Click to expand...
 
With Canon producing their sensors in-house, Nikon must be by far the biggest user of Sony sensors, much more than sony themselves so they probably have the muscle to vary the sensor for their own needs
 
Brooks P said:
Nikon has had a hand in developing every sensor that has gone into their models, but except for the D1, D2, D700, and D3s models the basic sensors have been Sony. The D300 had a sensor developed by Nikon, but the sensor is derived from the Sony IMX02, the D200 had a Nikon 4-channel sensor), which was nothing more than a 4-channel ICX483AQA. Unless Nikon has built an as yet unreported new plant I don’t see how they can produce APS-C sensors; the demand for sensors for the D700 and D3s stretches their production capabilities as it is now; they had to utilize Sony for sensors for the D3x. Both the D700 and D3s are produced in low volumn and Nikon can handle the production of the sensors.

The relationship between Sony and Nikon has been a symbiotic one, Sony producing the sensors, and Nikon producing the Steppers used to manufacture ICs.
Click to expand...
I know all that (apart from the mistakes, like IMX02, rather than IMX021: image



)

It doesn't have any bearing on the fact that this sensor is not an IMX021 dervaitive or anything like. they've all ahd similar layouts with lands distributed all round the chip, rather than at just the two ends.
this is a Nikon sensor, just like the D3, D700 and D3S.
 
Wellington100 said:
With Canon producing their sensors in-house, Nikon must be by far the biggest user of Sony sensors, much more than sony themselves so they probably have the muscle to vary the sensor for their own needs
Click to expand...
This isn't a varied sensor, this is a completely different sensor.
 
Thanks, if confirmed, this is very big news for us Nikon users, since the D3s' sensor is the best in most aspects, maybe just in the DR dept it looses to the D3x', but that may be just the readout scheme at 14 bits for D3x, which is very slow and designed to maximize low ISO performance.

Cheers!
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
Brooks P said:
The D3100 introduces a 14MP sensor that appears, on the surface, to eclipse Nikon’s current APS-C sensors. The Live View (LV) and Video Mode (VM) also top the other offerings. So how does Nikon address this with the D90/300s/5000 replacements?
Click to expand...
The question you have to ask is if video and live view help make a better photographic tool? No doubt SLR video is neat, but it's not really a core function of an SLR. A photographic tool for still images, I find the D3100 very entry-level and not something I'd ever own. Sure, it's got 14MP as opposed to 12MP, but it also lacks a lot of features that the D90 and D5000 currently offer.

I should also point out that the D700 offers the same MP as the D300. We all know that the FX sensor provides far superior ISO and DR performance than the DX equivalent.
Brooks P said:
Unless I’m missing something I don’t see that Sony has an APS-C sensor that is greater than 14MP. Nikon is not likely to put the Sony 14MP in the D90 replacement now that it is in the D3100, much less in the D300s replacement. Canon has an 18MP APS-C sensor and it stands to reason that since Canon is the primary competitor that Nikon will want to keep them in sight. Sony appears to be out of the picture as the supplier, so does that mean there is a possibility that Nikon might introduce their own sensor, maybe something in the 18MP range?
Click to expand...
I agree with you that that the 14MP is unlikely to be slated for the D90 successor. I am dubious about the D300s successor even being a DX sensor. If that's the case, the D90 replacement would become the new top of the line DX body. In that case, it likely needs something more to set it apart from the D3100 and potentially the D5100 (because you know that's coming soon). Nikon rumors is claiming that the D90 replacement would use something in the 16MP-18MP ballpark. So I'm going to go with you on that one.

Personally, I'd be thrilled the D90 replacement having the following:
  • The same 12MP but with greatly improved ISO and DR performance
  • Increased buffer (9FPS!)
  • 51-point AF
  • Metal body (as long as it's as light as the D90 is now!)
  • Maybe and articulating screen. Maybe. But it has to have the same 920k resolution!
That'd about do it for me. Even more so, just getting rid of video all together.
Brooks P said:
Better LV and VM seem to be a given, at least as good as the D3100, and very possibly even better.
Click to expand...
Just thought I'd point out that that no one has yet to qualify the LV and VM with the D3100 as "good" yet ;) Yes, it all sounds better on paper, but it has not yet been run through its paces.

Better LV would be more preferable than VM. If the new D90 stuck with 720p but with actually usable LV, I'd be thrilled. I actually find myself using LV more and more on my D90, but it's just so slow. If the D3100 actually does LV well, you can bet the next D90 "should" handle it better. And if it can, why not provide an articulating screen?
 
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