D700 vs D3s

gma44 said:

Thanks Grevture, nice work! You're definitely puling some nice images out at ISO 25600. What I'm seeing on mine is not nearly that clean. I haven't done any PP in an effort to see what the camera is capable of. Did you do any noise reduction to the images you posted?

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First, just to make sure nobody get strange ideas - at iso 25600 I get a decent yield of images that work. It does not mean every image look as good as these examples, far from it. At iso 25600 you have to be very cautious about exposure and light. It is very easy to get ugly highlights in skin tones, and if the dancing couple in those images would have looked down, putting their faces in the shadow, they would have looked a bit murky and grainy.

But with decent light (like the TV studio this was shot in) and some care you can get a lot of useable images at 25600 (along with many noisy and dull looking ones). But, I still fins it rather amazing you can actually get any good ones at all with just some care and a little PP

When trying out a new camera like the D3s, I try to find what I would call my 'set and forget' level of iso. That is the iso setting where I can more or less stop thinking to much about where the highlights and shadows are and just concentrate on taking the images (content, timing etc) I want and knowing with some certanity most of my images will be useable without having to spend a lot of time post processing.

This level of course vary with cameras, but probably also with photographers. Others are more exposure aware (without concentrating very much on it) then I am, and therefore can have a higher 'set and forget' iso without getiing into trouble - others might be even lower then me. But for me the 'set and forget' iso for the D3 is around 3200 for most lighting situations, and with the D3s I seem to find this level at 10000 or 12800 (the jury is still out on that decision)

With my D200 it used to be iso 500 ...

The above pertains to more then just noise, it is a lot about colors, particularily skin tones (in my case). That is where for example why I rarely went much beyond iso 500 with the D200 - I had such problem getting decent skin tones in peoples faces at higher isos. Particularily if the face was partly in the shadow (like a hockey players face under the helmet). This is why the D3 was such a revelation for me when I first got it - shooting at iso 3200 with manageable noise and decent colors - wow! Now the D3s have taken this even further.

As for post processing, almost all the examples in my previous post have received (using Lightroom/ACR terminology):

• some slight WB adjustment
• a increase of Blacks, typically up to 8-12 (from 5)
• a slight decrease of Brightness, typically down to 35-45 (from 50)
• sometimes I add a bit of contrast, sometimes I change from Medium Contrast to Strong Contrast (typically in sports images for news papers)
• Sharpness at 35-40 (sometimes more for news paper images)
• Luminance noise reduction at about 15-25

These are pretty standard adjustments I typically do on one image in my selection, then copy/paste to the rest and I might fine tune some images after that - all in all I typically spend less then 30 seconds per image for post processing (neither I or my editors have a lot of patience )

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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!

By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny

Wanted to repeat one thing. My recommendation is that you set ISO 12800 as a maximum. All of the HI modes are ISO 12800 plus 1-3 stops of digital gain, and it involves throwing away 1-3 bits. Better for you to shoot at ISO 12800 and apply the digital gain yourself in post; and then you can decide which bits you want to throw away or not. This obviously gives you all the features of the HI mode without losing your archival image data, and it makes auto ISO work much in your favor.

gma44 said:

Thanks Grevture, nice work! You're definitely puling some nice images out at ISO 25600. What I'm seeing on mine is not nearly that clean. I haven't done any PP in an effort to see what the camera is capable of. Did you do any noise reduction to the images you posted?

Thanks again.

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That guy in the first shot looks so gay.

To the guy complaining about AF performance.

I don't shoot the D700 or D3. Don't know if you know this, but a great way to shoot sports is to limit the focus area to 21 or even 11 points (if those are the correct numbers). It's more then enough and gives the camera 30 (and 40) less focus points to search though - which gives for a faster AF.

Just a tip. Seems like many people here does not make a living out of this, and does not know more then 20% of their camera capability before they upgrade to something with twice the price but a lot less gain. No offense to anyone.

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Jens Marklund

I must say that I was shooting with the D700 for about a year and after getting the D3s, I see no reasons for looking back. I will say that I have done some slight changes in the menu settings of both my D3s and my SB900 flash and I will also have to say that my D3s does out shine my D700 that I got rid of. I am planning on backing my D3s up with another D3s.

This has been a very interesting thread concerning the D-700 and the D3s.. well all I am using is a D-300s and yes wanting to upgrade.. after reading the threads i am leaning toward the D3S.. I shoot sporting events indoors basketball and a few night time football games.. it seems my 300s is pooping out at 3200 iso and above.. I try to keep the shutter speed at 1/500 but the 300s is just not letting me do that in low light even with the 70-200/ 2.8 I also use the 85/1.4 which is better but the dof is dropping to about 2 inches.. lol... I hope my decision on the D-3s is good... any advice please let me know.

Lindsey Webb said:

This has been a very interesting thread concerning the D-700 and the D3s.. well all I am using is a D-300s and yes wanting to upgrade.. after reading the threads i am leaning toward the D3S.. I shoot sporting events indoors basketball and a few night time football games.. it seems my 300s is pooping out at 3200 iso and above..

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I think it is safe to say that the D3s has a roughly 1 and 1/2 step on the D3/D700, who in turn should have about a step on the D300s ...

So the result you get at 3200, you can probably get at 25600 or thereabouts with the D3s ... Now I feel comfortable shooting the D3 at 3200, that gives me a very good yield of files who are easy to post process. Going beyond that, I need to be a lot more careful with highlights, and with skin tones in shadows. That same comfort level I found at iso 10000 with (occasionally 12800) with the D3s. I only briefly used the D300 and D300s, but there my comfort zone would be around iso 1600.

Lindsey Webb said:

I try to keep the shutter speed at 1/500 but the 300s is just not letting me do that in low light even with the 70-200/ 2.8 I also use the 85/1.4 which is better but the dof is dropping to about 2 inches.. lol... I hope my decision on the D-3s is good... any advice please let me know.

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If you shoot a lot of low light indoor sports, and can afford a D3s ... Congratulations, you have just decided on what currently is the best low light camera on the market

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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!

By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny

I have shot indoor basketball with a D3S, and the idea of shooting high ISO and high shutter speed is very attractive. But --- the metal vapor lighting in the gym where I shoot cycles from nearly off to full bright to nearly off in 1/120 second. And while cycling in brightness it also cycles in color! For me, this means that the demands on PP are too great and the keeper rate is lower than I would like if the shutter speed is too high. However, I have not tried routinely taking bursts of several frames at high SS in the expectation that the odds will favor at least one frame will come out to be usable.
BTW, In any case I find getting WB right with gym lighting to be tricky.

Good luck with whatever you use.

Lindsey Webb said:

This has been a very interesting thread concerning the D-700 and the D3s.. well all I am using is a D-300s and yes wanting to upgrade.. after reading the threads i am leaning toward the D3S.. I shoot sporting events indoors basketball and a few night time football games.. it seems my 300s is pooping out at 3200 iso and above.. I try to keep the shutter speed at 1/500 but the 300s is just not letting me do that in low light even with the 70-200/ 2.8 I also use the 85/1.4 which is better but the dof is dropping to about 2 inches.. lol... I hope my decision on the D-3s is good... any advice please let me know.

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georgeRC said:

georgeRC wrote:

But --- the metal vapor lighting in the gym where I shoot cycles from nearly off to full bright to nearly off in 1/120 second. And while cycling in brightness it also cycles in color! For me, this means that the demands on PP are too great and the keeper rate is lower than I would like if the shutter speed is too high.

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George, have you gotten the same problem with any other camera or only the D3s?

georgeRC said:

However, I have not tried routinely taking bursts of several frames at high SS in the expectation that the odds will favor at least one frame will come out to be usable.

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Sounds like a plan...

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Your 4 'Cees' for photography: Crisp, Clean, Composed and Colourful
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Tigadee said:

Tigadee said:

georgeRC wrote:

But --- the metal vapor lighting in the gym where I shoot cycles from nearly off to full bright to nearly off in 1/120 second. And while cycling in brightness it also cycles in color! For me, this means that the demands on PP are too great and the keeper rate is lower than I would like if the shutter speed is too high.

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George, have you gotten the same problem with any other camera or only the D3s?

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This kind of problem has been know for a long time, but was probably not much of an issue until the (now old) Eos 1D Mk2 showed up with its remarkable high iso capability for its day. But even then you only rarely reached the shutter speeds where the problem really turn into a nuisance. It was probably the D3 who first made a really large number of people aware of the problem (which btw also happen with fluorecent tubes who also tend to cycle in brightness and color) and with the D3s the problem becomes even more evident.

So, just to be very clear, this is not a camera problem per se, rather a problem we could only rarely see with older cameras. It is with easily available high isos we have started using the shutter speeds where cycling of light sources becomes a problem.

The sad thing is that it should never really happen, if the light in the venue is correctly set up. Many modern venues have for example fluorescent tubes set up in a way where they cancel eachother out - and saves power in the process.

--
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!

By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny

Yes sir you are so right... many times my shutter speed in a gym has caught the cycle in a off position on one light and another light beside it was fully on... that makes weird lighting on photos especially when a wall is involved... i dont know yet.. I might just sit back and wait for the replacement on the D-700 to come out then and make a decision.. Im retired and photography is just a hobby so I need to be careful as to what I decide on.. my D-300s in good lighting is just perfect. Thanks for your help.
Lindsey Webb

The problem with lighting is not camera specific once you push into high shutter speeds.

The camera measures light intensity and color balance before raising the mirror. By the time the mirror raises you have a delay of about 35-45 ms or so, but the light is pulsing from minimum to max to min in about 8 ms and a fast shutter speed means (at 1/500) a slit that allows a 2 ms exposure and takes 4 ms to travel over the frame. So, it's impossible to get even lighting over the frame, or for the camera to set up for the exposure.

Some of the problem would go away with an electronic shutter (D50?) but the point is that the high ISO of the D3s that should make high shutter speed possible runs up against the unlovely characteristics of the lighting found in many gyms.

Yes... i didnt know about the time lag.. well I have had to color correct many pics in gyms and sometime just crop all the weird colors out especially on a wall.. probably the best solution is just keep my 300s ( maybe ) and use a flash.. Trying to get up a little higher and shoot down has helped, but on the floor wow it can be very trying.

Great job in defending the D3s, thank you!

... the D3s is a tough kid, very able to defend itself ...

nikonbug said:

Great job in defending the D3s, thank you!

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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!

By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny

We see this again, and again, and again. Same "complaint" we had in the film days.

I love your explanation and hope many folks read it. It is a good teaching answer!
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Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com
http://www.ghost-town-photography.com