How good is HS10 for birding?

Condor · Aug 14, 2010

robbierensenbrink said:
Hi Condor,

I do not like beating around the bush, so I will show you the good and bad from what I have experienced with he HS10, hence my decision to buy a D5000 as well.

Thanks so much for your posting and for what is the best test for a camera, I mean real world samples from real users.

First I'm totally clear of P&S super zooms limitations, so I do not expect more than what they can produce. I'm so clear about that that in fact I consider 3 segments to fill for my amateur birding hobby.

1.- P&S super zooms, lower preformance, lower price, funny features: and so far HS10 is winning.

2.- Midle performance, midle price: And I think that the eventual new Panasonic GH2 plus the already announced 100-300mm lens (200-600mm equiv) are going to be my set for this segment (with its wider-angle kit lens it would let my future LX3 as my backup)

3.- Higher performance, higher price: Just for birding, and after a deep analysis my set for this segment would be Canon 7D plus the 400mm f/5.6

Each set would have its moment depending of the circumstances, place, risks, trip duration, nature of the trip, etc. And sometimes I would carry even 2 sets for backup, for oportunity shoots or for simplicity purposes.

For the first segment, I do not care at all about noice, mishmash, etc, since it would be a camera that I will always carry in my car basically for identification purposes and for bird behavior register. I also will carry always with me a Panasonic LX3 (LX5 does not produce as beautiful photos) for all non long-zoom situations (80-90% of my photos; landscapes, touristic, groups, portraits, parties, macros, etc)

robbierensenbrink said:
At ISO 100 and enough light available you will be pretty safe.

Pic 1, Kookaburra, was shot at 126mm + extra in camera zoom applied (763mm). You still can clearly and sharply see the dirt around its beak. No PP applied.

This is something I wanted to know, "Fuji extra in camera zoom", since I always used the Extra Optical Zoom of the FZ35/38 since that way I got better bird photos, and also "already cropped". So, how many options of extra zoom does it have? FZ100 has Intelligent Zoom that produced 799mm equiv and Extra Optical Zoom (3Mp) of 1.266mm

robbierensenbrink said:
Then it goes downhill.

With the 2 following examples i unfortunately had left the camera on ISO 800. It provided a safe 1/2200 sec shutter speed for shooting without a tripod but the noise and mash/mush became unbearable. Pic 2 a (Pigeon) might for some not be acceptable anymore, so I had to PP and scale to get something out of it (pic 2 b).

Pic 3 a (? bird name), the noise and mishmash is not acceptable at ISO 800, PP and scale had to be applied but I ended up with a small print (3b).

All your samples are acceptable for me for a P&S-super-zoom (almost toys) cameras.

robbierensenbrink said:
If anyone can make something better out of 3 a with PP, please feel free to do so and post.

I do not use PP, I'm an amateur birder and a normal-person photographer, so my birding photos are almost just for me and for the rest of my photos I will use other cameras, and people who watch my photos (family and friends) do not care too much about technical issues but about the moment I was living, the scene I was watching, the persons that were there or the experience I was enjoing. I do not publish my photos in any publication and I do not even print photos since more than 10 years, neither my family or friends do, we use Internet to share them or we watch them in PC-monitors or in TV-sets.

Thanks so much again.

davestravelgear · Aug 14, 2010

Condor wrote;

Condor said:
This is something I wanted to know, "Fuji extra in camera zoom", since I always used the Extra Optical Zoom of the FZ35/38 since that way I got better bird photos, and also "already cropped". So, how many options of extra zoom does it have? FZ100 has Intelligent Zoom that produced 799mm equiv and Extra Optical Zoom (3Mp) of 1.266mm

The HS10 has two extra (digital zoom ) options, both instantly available, Instant Zoom, which basically crops the framed image in a landscape or portrait mode, and is about 1.4x I think, and Zoom Bracketing, which takes three pics in either orientation, one at the currant zoom, one zoomed in 1.4x and the last by 2x.

I have used both to good effect, but would prefer more control over digital zoom like in most other cameras, where you increase or decrease the amount you want with a toggle switch. Having more than 2x with a lens like this is asking a bit too much I think, but with good light and a steady rest, some good results can be achieved!
Hope this helps?
Dave

Photorealm · Aug 14, 2010

I guess a lot depends upon whether you want the shot just for identification purposes or to keep afterward in a gallery.

Myself, I use for both, but ultimately want a "keeper" photo. I leave my HS10 locked on ISO100. It DOES go downhill from there. I'll go higher for astro shots but only when absolutely necessary for birds, wildlife, etc.

Those limitations on zoom also apply...do you want the shot just for ID or do you want a keeper. I can turn long zoom shots into keepers by reducing them to 50% But, then I ask the philosophical question of do you really have a long zoom if you ultimately reduce?

I'd much rather crop than reduce but very rarely can I.

I like the compactness for the zoom and I've gotten some photos out of it that I'm proud of, quite a few, in fact. I do have another camera coming, though

Brangdon · Aug 14, 2010

Condor said:
Plus some other funny features of the HS10 as 1000fps movie mode, or 10fps (7 max) burst mode, which also helps a lot for my birding hobby.

I found the 10fps to be too rapid; you get roughly half a second of action which means they may all be very similar. 3fps is more useful for catching different positions over a couple of seconds.

However, one drawback of the HS10 for birding is the slow shot-to-shot time, and that is especially bad in burst mode because if you miss the shot (or release the shutter too early) it can be around 20 seconds before you get another chance. It can be frustrating.

--
Quality is addictive.

Condor · Aug 14, 2010

davestravelgear said:
davestravelgear said:

This is something I wanted to know, "Fuji extra in camera zoom", since I always used the Extra Optical Zoom of the FZ35/38 since that way I got better bird photos, and also "already cropped". So, how many options of extra zoom does it have? FZ100 has Intelligent Zoom that produced 799mm equiv and Extra Optical Zoom (3Mp) of 1.266mm

Click to expand...

The HS10 has two extra (digital zoom ) options, both instantly available, Instant Zoom, which basically crops the framed image in a landscape or portrait mode, and is about 1.4x I think, and Zoom Bracketing, which takes three pics in either orientation, one at the currant zoom, one zoomed in 1.4x and the last by 2x.

I have used both to good effect, but would prefer more control over digital zoom like in most other cameras, where you increase or decrease the amount you want with a toggle switch. Having more than 2x with a lens like this is asking a bit too much I think, but with good light and a steady rest, some good results can be achieved!
Hope this helps?
Dave

Thanks Dave,

Based in what you say there's no longer optical zoom than 720mm, not even with a smaller resolution photo.

Do you know if there exist some sort of hacked firmware for the HS10, as it exists for some other cameras, that could provide some sort of Panasonic's "Extra Optical Zooom", and some other funny features also?

Condor · Aug 14, 2010

Photorealm said:
I guess a lot depends upon whether you want the shot just for identification purposes or to keep afterward in a gallery.

First thanks for all your advices, you as a birder understand what I'm looking for as an amateur birder.

About your question, curiosly I want both, I want identification photos that I keep in my personal gallery of specimens observation, which every now and then I check to verify if it really was the species I thought, or where did I observed that bird and also when if they are migratory birds

Photorealm said:
Myself, I use for both, but ultimately want a "keeper" photo. I leave my HS10 locked on ISO100. It DOES go downhill from there. I'll go higher for astro shots but only when absolutely necessary for birds, wildlife, etc.

Since I do not mind that much about quality in the case of a P&S I prefer to increase ISO as much as I can but get a more "steady" image of that far distant bird, specially if it is under the shadows. That more steady image allows me a better identification.

Photorealm said:
Those limitations on zoom also apply...do you want the shot just for ID or do you want a keeper. I can turn long zoom shots into keepers by reducing them to 50%

You mean reducing the Mp from 10Mp to for instance 5Mp? Or do you mean some other HS10 feature?

Photorealm said:
But, then I ask the philosophical question of do you really have a long zoom if you ultimately reduce? I'd much rather crop than reduce but very rarely can I.

I also crop almost always my bird photos. That's why I liked so much FZ35/38's "Extra Optical Zoom", which infact is some sort of cropped used of the sensor (which is not the same as a cropped photo), and which in fact provides you a better photo of birds.

When I used the FZ35/38 for birding I kept it always at the maximum "Extra Optical Zoom" obtaining some 3Mp aprox. photos, but better focused, with best contrasts, and that took less time to be written to my memory card, allowing me to be prepared sooner for the next shoot.

Photorealm said:
I like the compactness for the zoom and I've gotten some photos out of it that I'm proud of, quite a few, in fact. I do have another camera coming, though

That's my reason also for wanting a super-zoom, but I do not expect real quality photos from any P&S cameras (I do not need them also since I'm not a professional photographer), not even from my future LX3, in which case I just expect beautiful photos.

Photorealm · Aug 14, 2010

Condor said:
Condor said:

Those limitations on zoom also apply...do you want the shot just for ID or do you want a keeper. I can turn long zoom shots into keepers by reducing them to 50%

Click to expand...

You mean reducing the Mp from 10Mp to for instance 5Mp? Or do you mean some other HS10 feature?

I almost always shoot at 5mp and then reduce the resulting image in PP. By taking a 5mp shot and reducing to 50% to obtain a 1296x972 image, you get some decent quality most of the time. If shooting 10mp, the reduction is sometimes 33% I'd love to crop a 1296x972 image out of a 5mp picture (without reducing) but quality suffers in my eyes when I do that. This is more of a eye of the beholder type of thing. Some people don't mind it, I do...if a person is happy with what it looks like cropped at 10mp and it meets his/her needs, great!

But for me, there is usually the reduction, which ends up lowering your overall effective reach.

Condor · Aug 14, 2010

Brangdon said:
Condor said:

Plus some other funny features of the HS10 as 1000fps movie mode, or 10fps (7 max) burst mode, which also helps a lot for my birding hobby.

Click to expand...

I found the 10fps to be too rapid; you get roughly half a second of action which means they may all be very similar. 3fps is more useful for catching different positions over a couple of seconds.

Based on the excellent 41-pages real world photos HS10 review of Jacky Lee, and specifcally from its page-12:

http://www.pbase.com/middlehill/hs10_telephoto_shots

I seems that 10fps could help to btain more steady-clear shots under certain conditions

Brangdon said:
However, one drawback of the HS10 for birding is the slow shot-to-shot time, and that is especially bad in burst mode because if you miss the shot (or release the shutter too early) it can be around 20 seconds before you get another chance. It can be frustrating.

That's what I have heard. Does it still the same with the new firmwares? Even tough that it is not an SDXC camera, does those faster cards work in the HS10?

davestravelgear · Aug 14, 2010

Condor said:
Thanks Dave,

Based in what you say there's no longer optical zoom than 720mm, not even with a smaller resolution photo.

Only with converters, of which there are many!

Condor said:
Do you know if there exist some sort of hacked firmware for the HS10, as it exists for some other cameras, that could provide some sort of Panasonic's "Extra Optical Zooom", and some other funny features also?

None that I've heard about, but let me know if you do?

Still waiting on more firmware updates, many of the "fun modes" included with the HS10 like panoramic, pro low light, motion remover and multi motion capture, are far from being usable, which is a shame, especially as they seem to work ok in new cameras like the F300!
Hope Fuji haven't forgotten us?

Photorealm · Aug 14, 2010

davestravelgear said:
Hope Fuji haven't forgotten us?

Give that my "What happened to Paul Woodall?" failed to garner a response from Paul, I'm afraid the HS10 (now being old news) is no longer at the forefront of concern at Fuji. Too bad, too, because there are still things that need and could be ironed out with another Firmware upgrade.

robbierensenbrink · Aug 14, 2010

Condor said:
1.- P&S super zooms, lower performance, lower price, funny features: and so far HS10 is winning.

Condor said:
2.- Midle performance, midle price: And I think that the eventual new Panasonic GH2 plus the already announced 100-300mm lens (200-600mm equiv) are going to be my set for this segment (with its wider-angle kit lens it would let my future LX3 as my backup)

Condor said:
3.- Higher performance, higher price: Just for birding, and after a deep analysis my set for this segment would be Canon 7D plus the 400mm f/5.6

You'll be right with #1

If you can afford it why not go for #2 and #3 but I think it is a bit of overkill.

For instance, I am looking at buying a Sigma 150-500mm (225-750mm Equivalent) super zoom to go with my Nikon D5000. This set would cover both #2 and #3 for a decent price, you could throw in a converter and Bob's your Uncle.

Condor said:
I do not use PP, I'm an amateur birder and a normal-person photographer, so my birding photos are almost just for me and for the rest of my photos I will use other cameras, and people who watch my photos (family and friends) do not care too much about technical issues but about the moment I was living, the scene I was watching, the persons that were there or the experience I was enjoing. I do not publish my photos in any publication and I do not even print photos since more than 10 years, neither my family or friends do, we use Internet to share them or we watch them in PC-monitors or in TV-sets.

I agree in some way. Today, PP software has almost become more important than shooting skills and in some cases is more expensive than a decent camera.
In some cases though you will need it.

Condor said:
Based in what you say there's no longer optical zoom than 720mm

Yes there are:

Olympus but no viewfinder on this cam.

http://www.cameraaction.com.au/call1300-303-191/products.asp?sku=225812&dept=3

Pentax x90:

Optical zoom: 26X Focal length (equiv.): 4.6-119.6mm (26-676mm) Digital zoom: 6.25X Combined zoom: 162.5X Intelligent zoom: Approx 33.9X at 7M to 162.5X at VGA Aperture: F2.8-5.0

So, at 162.5x Intelligent zoom you end up with a 3MP pic at 1400mm I believe. Do not know what the quality is like though.

Photorealm wrote:
Myself, I use for both, but ultimately want a "keeper" photo.

So correct.

Condor said:
I almost always shoot at 5mp and then reduce the resulting image in PP. By taking a 5mp shot and reducing to 50% to obtain a 1296x972 image, you get some decent quality most of the time.

I have to try that. More pixels is often not more quality.

Davestravelgear said:
Hope Fuji haven't forgotten us?

Nah, all those gadgets will be working better in the HS 15 or HS 20 or whatever they gonna call it. Don't bet your house on it though.

Brangdon said:
I found the 10fps to be too rapid; you get roughly half a second of action which means they may all be very similar. 3fps is more useful for catching different positions over a couple of seconds.

Sometimes the 10fps is handy. I shot the following pics from my running doggie.

If you download the pics, put them in Picasa and quickly flick through them you can nicely see the movement.

I should have put a burst shoot of the birdies of course, here we go:

--
The statement below is true.
The statement above is false.

Danielepaolo · Aug 14, 2010

I haven't had time to read replies here but this is my take

Birders have to be patient. Best bird shots with any camera are generally those where the photog waits for the bird to come to them. In this scenario where you have time, same as if you have tame birds that you can get close too, then the cam will do well.

On the other hand, if you think you can go out with the HS10 in to the bush and snap birds as you come across them then you will be surely disappointed as I am with this camera. It's AF is way to slow, writing to card is way too slow, detail captured is poor and if lighting is tricky (most of the times in this scenario when out in the bush) expect blown highlights that you can't recover and/or no detail in shadows, this camera really fails miserably for this task. It is just as much our fault for expecting to this than the camera's limitations.

What you can get though are images that help identify the bird and if lucky you might get a good shot as long as lighting is very good.

--
Apologies if my lack of photographic knowledge is catching.

Danielepaolo · Aug 14, 2010

I have that TC also, look on ebay. I got mine for $29 so you might get lucky. You could try electronic zoom for the extra 2x. Also, get yourself a tripod for the long zoom and video.

It would be interesting to see how you go with bird photos and this camera. There are some in my gallery if you care to take a look.
--
Apologies if my lack of photographic knowledge is catching.

Condor · Aug 14, 2010

Danielepaolo said:
What you can get though are images that help identify the bird and if lucky you might get a good shot as long as lighting is very good.

That's my main objective, so it seems to be that I'm in the right way.

Thanks.

Condor · Aug 15, 2010

Danielepaolo said:
I have that TC also, look on ebay. I got mine for $29 so you might get lucky. You could try electronic zoom for the extra 2x. Also, get yourself a tripod for the long zoom and video.

Which of the mentioned TC do you have?

Danielepaolo said:
It would be interesting to see how you go with bird photos and this camera. There are some in my gallery if you care to take a look.

Which camera did you use for the bird photos in your gallery?

Thanks

Brangdon · Aug 15, 2010

Condor said:
Based on the excellent 41-pages real world photos HS10 review of Jacky Lee, and specifcally from its page-12:

http://www.pbase.com/middlehill/hs10_telephoto_shots

I seems that 10fps could help to btain more steady-clear shots under certain conditions

With either 3fps or 10fps you get less camera shake on all except the first shot. I don't think 10fps is any better from that point of view.

It's also worth noting there's a mode where you half-press, and it starts taking shots but throws them away. It can do that indefinitely. Then when you full-press, it keeps the last few plus the next few, as many as will fit in its buffer. So you get a range of shots grouped around when you fully pressed the shutter. It's good for capturing a key moment, eg when a bird takes flight.

You can do this at 10fps or 3fps. However, at 10fps the camera is really close to the limit, and the electronic viewfinder becomes so laggy as to be usable. 3fps works better here.

Condor said:
That's what I have heard. Does it still the same with the new firmwares? Even tough that it is not an SDXC camera, does those faster cards work in the HS10?

Faster cards help. I have an old 2 Gig class 4 card which is noticeably faster than my new 8 Gig class 6, even though it shouldn't be. But much of the time is processing, not writing, so it only saves about 20%. The real problem is that it can't do its work in parallel with you composing the next shot. The EVF blanks for the duration.
--
Quality is addictive.

Photorealm · Aug 15, 2010

Brangdon said:
It's also worth noting there's a mode where you half-press, and it starts taking shots but throws them away. It can do that indefinitely. Then when you full-press, it keeps the last few plus the next few, as many as will fit in its buffer. So you get a range of shots grouped around when you fully pressed the shutter. It's good for capturing a key moment, eg when a bird takes flight.

Actually I've found it NOT to be indefinitely...if you keep it half-pressed for too long, it decides to start writing files. I've had this happen several times and I know I'm not pressing the rest of the way to go to full-press. This is another thing that Fuji needs to fix in a Firmware upgrade.

davestravelgear · Aug 15, 2010

Photorealm said:
davestravelgear said:

Hope Fuji haven't forgotten us?

Click to expand...

Give that my "What happened to Paul Woodall?" failed to garner a response from Paul, I'm afraid the HS10 (now being old news) is no longer at the forefront of concern at Fuji. Too bad, too, because there are still things that need and could be ironed out with another Firmware upgrade.

That there are!
Come on Fuji....how difficult can it be???????????

Danielepaolo · Aug 15, 2010

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

Condor said:
Danielepaolo said:

I have that TC also, look on ebay. I got mine for $29 so you might get lucky. You could try electronic zoom for the extra 2x. Also, get yourself a tripod for the long zoom and video.

Click to expand...

Which of the mentioned TC do you have?

I have the Sony 1758 TC and you might find one or two images in my gallery. They'll have TC in the title.

Condor said:
Condor said:

It would be interesting to see how you go with bird photos and this camera. There are some in my gallery if you care to take a look.

Click to expand...

Which camera did you use for the bird photos in your gallery?

Most photos are taken with HS10 and some for comparison with a K20D. Those with the K20D are labelled as such in the filename.
--
Apologies if my lack of photographic knowledge is catching.

Condor · Aug 16, 2010

Danielepaolo said:
Condor said:

Danielepaolo said:

I have that TC also, look on ebay. I got mine for $29 so you might get lucky. You could try electronic zoom for the extra 2x. Also, get yourself a tripod for the long zoom and video.

Click to expand...

Which of the mentioned TC do you have?

Click to expand...

I have the Sony 1758 TC and you might find one or two images in my gallery. They'll have TC in the title.

Danielepaolo said:

Danielepaolo said:

It would be interesting to see how you go with bird photos and this camera. There are some in my gallery if you care to take a look.

Click to expand...

Which camera did you use for the bird photos in your gallery?

Click to expand...

Most photos are taken with HS10 and some for comparison with a K20D. Those with the K20D are labelled as such in the filename.
--
Apologies if my lack of photographic knowledge is catching.

Thanks,

I'll check your gallery again.

How good is HS10 for birding?

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