F717 laser assist operation

I have my reservations also...sold my F707 and now scared about buying the F717. You say it's a small subset of camera/small set of specific conditions that lead to focus failure.

Yet, how is the amateur (read: novice) photographer supposed to know when this is happening?

Case in point: Went to Las Vegas for the first time and took some great pics with f707, some pics that can probably never be replaced...you can't make apologies for "quirks of a digicam" if some turned out badly.

I've been around this forum reading all the great posts for awhile and am not here to become a "troll." Just some, hopefully you will feel the same) legitimate concerns here.
 
interesting. hope to see some results from the 707
In an ongoing attempt to determine how and why the focus of the
F717 can fail I have been working on a theory based on observation
that the laser assist mode works differently than the regular focus
mode. I believe the camera in laser assist mode actually looks for
the laser, and not just the contrast of the scene that is augmented
by the laser. So if the camera can't see the laser, but the scene
otherwise has enough contrast to focus, the focus will fail until
the camera can see enough of the laser to focus.

This is how I have come to the conclusion.
Note: If anyone can see a fault in the test, please, suggest a
different test. This is very interesting to me, and I would like
to get to the bottom of it.

I setup a focus target in a low light situation. The camera
settings were the same for all tests except for the focus assist
mode (f/2 - 1 second - ISO 100). The cameras lens was exactly 1.2
meters from the focus target. The camera was also on a tripod and I
used a remote control to trigger the camera. I half pressed the
shutter on the remote control to auto-focus and then slid the focus
selector to manual to readout the distance, then I fully pressed
the shutter to take the picture.

1st picture:
laser assist off - reported distance 1.3 meters



2nd picture:
laser assist on - reported distance 1.2 meters



3rd picture:

laser assist on, but the beam was blocked - reported distance 4 meters



The only thing that changed in the focus assist images was the beam
being block. The lighting remained the same, and the existing
contrast of the target, which was enough for the camera to focus on
with the focus assist off, was now not enough to focus on with the
laser beam diverted. This tells me the camera is actually looking
for the laser and ignoring the existing contrast in the scene.

I was also surprised to see the .1 meter reported distance
discrepancy and I can only surmise it is the result of using two
different focusing procedures by the camera, one for scene contrast
detection, and the other for laser only contrast detection.

It would be interesting to see what an F707 would do with this
test. Does it behave the same way as the F717? I don't have one
anymore, so if anyone would like to give it a whirl, I am sure
there are others that would be interested in the results.

--
Shay

My Sony F707 Gallery: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp
My F717 Observations: http://www.shaystephens.com/f717.asp
--
Once a 707, now a 717
 
Your concern is true with any camera, film or digital. There is not a camera ever made that wouldn't miss or botch a shot if certain conditions were right. That is part of the reason we are exploring the issues, so that the novice can read what has been worked out and determined by others. Fear is crippling. And in this case, unnecessary. The F717 takes great pictures.

--
Shay

My Sony F707 & F717 Gallery: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp
My F717 Observations: http://www.shaystephens.com/f717.asp
 
Who's making apologies?

As I've been saying. The cameras that are doing this are few. The risk is also over-rated.

Simply put: If you are getting a number of OOF images (and you CAN review them right in-camera to see if they are OOF or not), then it's time to return it, report it, and get another if you'd like to try again.

How is that apologizing for the camera. I'm telling anyone and everyone wiht a genuine problem to unload that turkey if it's not putting out the results you need.

It's pretty easy to see an out of focus image. :-)
I have my reservations also...sold my F707 and now scared about
buying the F717. You say it's a small subset of camera/small set
of specific conditions that lead to focus failure.

Yet, how is the amateur (read: novice) photographer supposed to
know when this is happening?

Case in point: Went to Las Vegas for the first time and took some
great pics with f707, some pics that can probably never be
replaced...you can't make apologies for "quirks of a digicam" if
some turned out badly.

I've been around this forum reading all the great posts for awhile
and am not here to become a "troll." Just some, hopefully you will
feel the same) legitimate concerns here.
--

Ulysses
Repository of Some of My Stuff
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291269101

I'm an uncle!!!

 
Shay Stephens wrote:
I am hoping we see something from others trying the test within the
next few days.
Shay,

could you please come up with some kind of 'standard test procedure', so everybody interested (even novice like me) can repeat steps and test its 707/717 for 'focusing issue'? It (procedure) should be simple enough yet provides good results.

ctzen
 
Shay,

Look back at my other posts within this thread and it wil describe what I feel Hal is seeing happen. I cannot confirm if the focus uses multipoint but it could be perceived as that because when using the hologram that does not feel the target and other areas are hit with the hologram behind it (Which may be left, right, high, low, etc..) the focus may decide on that area for it's contrast....
Hal
playing around with the camera and I've noticed that when using the
HAF, SOMETHING is always in focus in my pictures. What IS in focus
may NOT be my intended subject, but something in the foreground or
background. As an example,
--
Shay

My Sony F707 & F717 Gallery: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp
My F717 Observations: http://www.shaystephens.com/f717.asp
 
Are Sony going to pay us for this?

They take the money and we have to do their dirty work. These kind of tests should have been done in their research labs.
Shay Stephens wrote:
I am hoping we see something from others trying the test within the
next few days.
Shay,

could you please come up with some kind of 'standard test
procedure', so everybody interested (even novice like me) can
repeat steps and test its 707/717 for 'focusing issue'? It
(procedure) should be simple enough yet provides good results.

ctzen
 
They take the money and we have to do their dirty work. These kind
of tests should have been done in their research labs.
Shay Stephens wrote:
I am hoping we see something from others trying the test within the
next few days.
Shay,

could you please come up with some kind of 'standard test
procedure', so everybody interested (even novice like me) can
repeat steps and test its 707/717 for 'focusing issue'? It
(procedure) should be simple enough yet provides good results.

ctzen
--

Ulysses
Repository of Some of My Stuff
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291269101

I'm an uncle!!!

 
Shay Stephens wrote:
It's understandable if the camera is looking for the laser. If the
brightness of the scene approaches the brightness of the laser, the
laser could lose contrast with the scene and focus failure could
result.

If the camera is instead using the contrast of the scene when using
the laser, then I am at a loss as to why focus can fail when the
brightness approaches the brightness of the laser. So I am
thinking the camera is looking for the laser and the existing
contrast of the scene is largely being ignored by the camera in
laser assist mode.
Yes, everything I have seen so far supports your conclusion. It explains why folks get better results with the laser off, and why there can be more OOF shots under better lighting conditions. And it also explains why Ulysses 3rd shot (blocked laser) was in focus and yours was not. In Ulysses case, the camera knew to ignore the laser and use image contrast for focusing. Not so for your 3rd shot.

Chuck
 
Yep, come monday morning. But I guess I will have to wait a number of days to get the replacement.
They take the money and we have to do their dirty work. These kind
of tests should have been done in their research labs.
Shay Stephens wrote:
I am hoping we see something from others trying the test within the
next few days.
Shay,

could you please come up with some kind of 'standard test
procedure', so everybody interested (even novice like me) can
repeat steps and test its 707/717 for 'focusing issue'? It
(procedure) should be simple enough yet provides good results.

ctzen
--

Ulysses
Repository of Some of My Stuff
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291269101

I'm an uncle!!!

 
Uly,

I assume you made a mistake on the 3rd picture labeling it as "Laser OFF but blocked." You mean Laser ON but blocked. Right?

I haven't read all the posts yet so maybe you or someone caught it already.

Heheh, we all make mistakes don't we. You corrected Arvin Chang for spelling the word, "dude" as "dud," now it's your turn. :-)

David Clark
My results are somewhat different. Here is the setup.

Distance from front of camera lens to target = 65" = 1.65m

100w halogen light at 96" = 2.44m away, pointing downwards

Camera = ISO 100, full optical zoom, F2.4, 1s shutter.

I performed three tests in this order:
Laser off
Laser on
Laser on but blocked

I obtained the camera's reported distances in each instance by
autofocusing, maintaining the half-press to hold the focus, and
then switching the Focus switch to Manual Focus.

Here are my results






In an ongoing attempt to determine how and why the focus of the
F717 can fail I have been working on a theory based on observation
that the laser assist mode works differently than the regular focus
mode. I believe the camera in laser assist mode actually looks for
the laser, and not just the contrast of the scene that is augmented
by the laser. So if the camera can't see the laser, but the scene
otherwise has enough contrast to focus, the focus will fail until
the camera can see enough of the laser to focus.
--

Ulysses
Repository of Some of My Stuff
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291269101
 
Ulysses wrote:
'splain that to me again? :-)

Seriously. I'm not sure I got that.
Let me try. All 3 of your shots were in focus, but only the first 2 of Shay's were in focus. So what's special or different about the #3 shot? We already know from the #1 shots that there was sufficient light to focus without the laser. In the #3 shot, the laser is on, but blocked. This wasn't a problem for your camera, because it correctly focused using scene contrast. And it should not have been a problem for Shay's camera either, because we know from his #1 pic there was sufficient light to contrast focus. So why did Shay's #3 shot fail to focus? One explanation would be that Shay's camera ignored the scene contrast, and would only use the laser. Since the laser could not be found, it mis-focused.

When the F717 turns on the laser for focusing, it has two focusing systems active at once, which can result in three outcomes. It can opt to use the laser, the contrast, or combine the results (e.g., average them). It has to pick one of these three. In Shay's #3 pic, it chose the wrong one (almost certainly laser). This explains why increasing the ambient light can actually produce more OOF shots. In very dim situations, the F717 correctly chooses laser. But when the ambient light overtakes the laser, Shay's camera is still trying to use the laser (equivalent to blocking the beam), when it should be using contrast focusing.

Since I'm already way out on a limb here, I might as well speculate the problem is caused by a batch of defective components, which explains why some cameras are fine, and why this did not show up in Sony's QA testing.

(You know, this sounds so good, I almost believe it myself)

Chuck
 
At this point, I'm not seeing any reason that the camera has a DUAL nature in its focus algorithm.

I like probepro's description. HOWEVER....

It doesn't make sense to me that the camera is looking for the laser ONLY if it sees it. When you have the laser enabled, it either looks for the laser or it doesn't. If it looks for the laser, then why did it lock onto my third shot (the blocked laser)? I'm pretty sure my ambient light levels were even lower than what Shay had in his tests (I should try turning em down lower even, just to see what happens).

What is odd is the DIFFERENT results that Shay and I pulled on this one. And I don't yet see the two results reconciled.

It's a puzzle.

But for the life of me, I can't so far imagine Sony writing a double focusing algorithm here.
Sounds very plausible.
--

Ulysses
Repository of Some of My Stuff
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291269101

I'm an uncle!!!

 
I'll try tomorrow at 1m or 3m to see what happens.

thanks!
If I had to guess, it would be that your distance from the target
was close to one of the default distance presets (2 meters) try the
test again using 1 meter from the target and see what happens.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top