Photos of the dead or dying, would you?

Just like Matt. The images disturbed me and I had to delete.

Sometimes we look at things out of a morbid curiosity, but later regret it, as it makes us feel bad.
As far as the money side.

Well illegal drugs, prostitution, and child porn are illegal, but doesn't stop them from being a multi-billion industry.

--
A purist at heart to protect the art
 
I do know that if one of my loved ones was lying breathing their last, and someone stuck a camera in their face it would find its way up the photographers backsides.
I understand your sentiments, but why would you respond with violence to what is to most is just a distasteful act?

If you physically attack someone because they do something as simple as taking a picture of a dead/dying relative I'm not sure I like that-it sounds like you have anger problems or find this issue so upsetting that rational thought is hard for you.
It isn't simply taking a picture and if you think it is in this situation then I would posit that you have a problem with, at the very least, your empathetic responses.

It is a deeply intrusive act which at base suggests that the photographer thinks their pleasure, or gain, from taking the photograph is worth more than the grief of the person present - or more specifically worth more than the additional stress and offense they cause by their actions.

It indicates a total lack of empathy at best and a vile, selfish, person at worst.
In a similar vien the photographer weegee took images of recently deceased people and sold them to any newspaper who wanted them, some of them are graphic, they are all of peoples husband/father/sons lying dead on pavements.

Those images now sell for large sums of money, do you feel anger about what weegee did? or is it OK because he sold the images?
http://colorcubic.com/2010/07/27/street-life-the-photography-of-weegee/

Here's a picture of a suicide
http://www.esquire.com/features/ESQ0903-SEP_FALLINGMAN

This man is recognisable if you ask me, possibly his death image is justifiable or are we ghouls for looking?

I have to say I don't feel totally comfortable with people taking images of dead people because i'd never do it, but if it were of a family member I certainly wouldn't hurt the photographer– I think I'd be more preoccupied with my grief for my lost loved one than any false sense of anger at 'stolen' images.
YMMV
It's not about 'stolen' images. And just because there is a market for such imagary doesn't make it right in any sense. People will pay money to see and experience horredous things - the fact that they are willing to pay does not negate any moral abhorence.

--
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/charleycoleman

http://www.new-oxford.com/users/charley.coleman
 
It's not about 'stolen' images. And just because there is a market for such imagary doesn't make it right in any sense. People will pay money to see and experience horredous things - the fact that they are willing to pay does not negate any moral abhorrence.

It isn't simply taking a picture and if you think it is in this situation then I would posit that you have a problem with, at the very least, your empathetic responses.
There's nothing wrong with my empathic responses, I stated quite clearly that I could not have taken those images. What I disagree with is you moral stance and the duplicity which allows you to look at images of death, but then would seek to censure others doing the same.

I may not like the photographers actions personally but I have to separate that from what is stated in the law-I wouldn't punch a photographer taking a picture of my dying child –I would have more on my mind than the applied rules of censorship.

I think you have to learn to separate you personal 'moral abhorrence' with what is acceptable to others. I find your preaching far more 'abhorrent' than those who would seek to take those images.

What we have here is someone who was selfish enough to commit suicide to directly affect others. I disagree that the actions of those taking the pictures would upset the people affected by her death, I think they have more to think about than the self moralistic machinations of people who would seek to limit them.

The mother of this child will always blame herself for her daughters death, the boyfriend who witnessed the selfish action will always wonder if he could have stopped it. Lives have been ruined, the bystanders who witnessed this with their eyes and cameras are but a small footnote to the sorry situation.
 
Saw this piece of news on the net today, its in regards to a girl who committed suicide and the people that took photos of her dying.

Ok, these people arent true photographers, but if you were there with your camera would you do it too?

I know that one or 2 people on here would, as we have already had this discussion in relation to road traffic collisions.
I personally think its cold and immoral, but whats your views...

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20100811/tuk-ghouls-took-photos-of-dying-suicide-45dbed5.html
--
Matt Simpson

Would you say the same of people who stopped to photograph a fire? After all, lives may be in danger, and at best many people are losing all they possess.

It seems to me, that human beings have the obligation to do their best to help others in need or in danger.

And what if you can't?

Is there a difference between "watching" and "photographing?" Is there a qualitative difference between recording a scene with your mind or your camera? What if someone pushed through the crowd to "get a better look?" But he didn't have a camera, whereas someone else with a camera did not push through, but took pictures from where they were?

To justify your position you have to explain the difference in which the person without a camera is normal, while the one with a camera is a ghool.

Dave
I think the difference is, is that if it happens infront of you then human nature is to be nosey to see what is happening. Its hard NOT to watch.

I have been to post mortems and found them intriguing and it hard not to look, but still found it ghoolish and macarbe.

But to take a photo or video is going that one step closer to feed your lust for blood, so you can watch it time and time again at your leisure.

The worry would be that it would most likely end up on youtube or facebook for all the world to see your loved one breathing their last.

Ask another question, if you saw a couple making love (either in public or through an open curtain) would you stop and look? would you photograph it? would you video it? Why? Would this be for your art? or your own lust?
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Matt Simpson

I think we're ashamed of our curiosity. We don't feel ashamed when we wish to watch something that is NOT a tradgedy, but since tragedies involve pain and suffering, which in these examples we cannot alieviate, we confuse our instinct to help with our curiosity instinct. So we feel guilty.

As far as I'm concerned we have nothing to be ashamed of. I recorded on film a murder victim, I think I looked at that image about five or six times since it was taken (five years or so ago).

As you point out it's not the picture taking, it's what you Do with the picture that is either shameful or nothing. And of course one doesn't need a camera to be a paid hack for the Enquirer to do something shameful.

Dave
 
It's not about 'stolen' images. And just because there is a market for such imagary doesn't make it right in any sense. People will pay money to see and experience horredous things - the fact that they are willing to pay does not negate any moral abhorrence.

It isn't simply taking a picture and if you think it is in this situation then I would posit that you have a problem with, at the very least, your empathetic responses.
There's nothing wrong with my empathic responses, I stated quite clearly that I could not have taken those images. What I disagree with is you moral stance and the duplicity which allows you to look at images of death, but then would seek to censure others doing the same.

I may not like the photographers actions personally but I have to separate that from what is stated in the law-I wouldn't punch a photographer taking a picture of my dying child –I would have more on my mind than the applied rules of censorship.

I think you have to learn to separate you personal 'moral abhorrence' with what is acceptable to others. I find your preaching far more 'abhorrent' than those who would seek to take those images.

What we have here is someone who was selfish enough to commit suicide to directly affect others. I disagree that the actions of those taking the pictures would upset the people affected by her death, I think they have more to think about than the self moralistic machinations of people who would seek to limit them.

The mother of this child will always blame herself for her daughters death, the boyfriend who witnessed the selfish action will always wonder if he could have stopped it. Lives have been ruined, the bystanders who witnessed this with their eyes and cameras are but a small footnote to the sorry situation.
 
It's not about 'stolen' images. And just because there is a market for such imagary doesn't make it right in any sense. People will pay money to see and experience horredous things - the fact that they are willing to pay does not negate any moral abhorrence.

It isn't simply taking a picture and if you think it is in this situation then I would posit that you have a problem with, at the very least, your empathetic responses.
There's nothing wrong with my empathic responses, I stated quite clearly that I could not have taken those images. What I disagree with is you moral stance and the duplicity which allows you to look at images of death, but then would seek to censure others doing the same.

I may not like the photographers actions personally but I have to separate that from what is stated in the law-I wouldn't punch a photographer taking a picture of my dying child –I would have more on my mind than the applied rules of censorship.
Please don't quote me out of context. The second bit you quoted was my response to your response to hypothetical comment by another poster.

My empathetic comment was made in relation to your comment that you seemed to put punching a photographer taking a photograph of your dying relative on the same moral footing as the photographer who "stuck a camera in their face". If I misunderstood what you meant then I apologise. You also said that the person who said they would react in such a way was irrational. You also said that the poster might have anger problems - I think the reaction would be understandable given the extreme situation and hardly indicative of anger problems.

Actually punching the photographer may or may not be legal depending upon the law in the particular country - or at least you may not be sanctioned for it as it might be found to be extreme provocation depending upon the specifics of the situation.
I think you have to learn to separate you personal 'moral abhorrence' with what is acceptable to others. I find your preaching far more 'abhorrent' than those who would seek to take those images.
I am sorry. I really didn't mean to come across as preaching. My comment about moral abhorrence was about the simple selling of images of real dead people for personal gratifcation. I don't see this as a particularly contentious position. I am not a total moral relativist so I don't view morality as a simple matter of personal opinion*. What I meant was the fact that some people think this is OK, in my mind, doesn't make it so.

although the whole issue of meta-ethics is very complex and not really on topic so I will leave it there.
What we have here is someone who was selfish enough to commit suicide to directly affect others. I disagree that the actions of those taking the pictures would upset the people affected by her death, I think they have more to think about than the self moralistic machinations of people who would seek to limit them.
In this real life example, as opposed to the situation discussed above, you may or may not be right about how it affected the people present who were directly involved.

However I take issue with the condemnation of suicide victims as universally selfish (you may not view them as universally selfish or you might I don't know). Whilst it is of course by it's very nature a self-regarding action it isn't necessarily motivated by selfish desires. I'm not a pyschiatrist but I would guess that a person's mental state just prior to suicide isn't exactly stable - they may see taking their own life as a benefit to others. It's a possibility in some cases.

Speaking more personally here if one of my relatives committed suicide I would not be concerned about the pain caused to me by them (the selfish part if you like). I would be so devasted that they were in that position where they reached the point of no return. In some ways one can turn it around to say it is selfish to say that a suicide victim had no regard for your feelings.

But basically I don't think it's particularly helpful to talk about suicide as selfish or otherwise. Simply it is tragic.
The mother of this child will always blame herself for her daughters death, the boyfriend who witnessed the selfish action will always wonder if he could have stopped it. Lives have been ruined, the bystanders who witnessed this with their eyes and cameras are but a small footnote to the sorry situation.
In this particular case I agree with you (bar the selfish action part)

--
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/charleycoleman

http://www.new-oxford.com/users/charley.coleman
 
I am sorry. I really didn't mean to come across as preaching. My comment about moral abhorrence was about the simple selling of images of real dead people for personal gratifcation. I don't see this as a particularly contentious position. I am not a total moral relativist so I don't view morality as a simple matter of personal opinion*. What I meant was the fact that some people think this is OK, in my mind, doesn't make it so.

although the whole issue of meta-ethics is very complex and not really on topic so I will leave it there.
The above wasn't meant to be emboldened it was meant to be asterisked from the sentence above it.

--
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/charleycoleman

http://www.new-oxford.com/users/charley.coleman
 
My empathetic comment was made in relation to your comment that you seemed to put punching a photographer taking a photograph of your dying relative on the same moral footing as the photographer who "stuck a camera in their face".
I object to the emotive language "stuck a camera in her face' that seems far too emotional, indeed I find taking a picture or looking at a scene of death as a much lesser evil than punching someone-I think that if I was holding my dying son the last thing that would worry me is who was watching or taking images.
However I take issue with the condemnation of suicide victims as universally selfish
Please show me where I said that?

What I said in this case we have someone who rang their boyfriend, waited till he arrived on the scene then jumped-in my book this was a selfish act.

What makes me say this?

One of my friends killed (shot) himself, his kid sister found his body when coming home from school, his mother and fathers lives were shattered.

Both blamed themselves for his death, his mother died a few years later the rest of the family were effectively destroyed.
All by one selfish action.

I also object to you trying to portray me as someone who agrees with the motives of those taking the image-please stop that.
 
My empathetic comment was made in relation to your comment that you seemed to put punching a photographer taking a photograph of your dying relative on the same moral footing as the photographer who "stuck a camera in their face".
I object to the emotive language "stuck a camera in her face' that seems far too emotional, indeed I find taking a picture or looking at a scene of death as a much lesser evil than punching someone-I think that if I was holding my dying son the last thing that would worry me is who was watching or taking images.
I didn't use that phrase it was matt simpson. I was responding to your response to him.

I thought that matt simpson was saying in a situation in which "someone stuck a camera in their face" and was clearly referring to a hypothetical situation in which this literally (as in word for word) happened. This was independent of the actual news story.

I'm sorry if there were some crossed wires!
However I take issue with the condemnation of suicide victims as universally selfish
Please show me where I said that?
I didn't say you did which is why I wrote:

"(you may not view them as universally selfish or you might I don't know)" afterwards. I was just making a general point illustrated by what you had said.

I didn't mean to imply something about you which I couldn't know. I'm sorry.
What I said in this case we have someone who rang their boyfriend, waited till he arrived on the scene then jumped-in my book this was a selfish act.

What makes me say this?

One of my friends killed (shot) himself, his kid sister found his body when coming home from school, his mother and fathers lives were shattered.

Both blamed themselves for his death, his mother died a few years later the rest of the family were effectively destroyed.
All by one selfish action.

I also object to you trying to portray me as someone who agrees with the motives of those taking the image-please stop that.
This wasn't my intention. You wrote many times that you didn't.

--
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/charleycoleman

http://www.new-oxford.com/users/charley.coleman
 
However I take issue with the condemnation of suicide victims as universally selfish
Please show me where I said that?
I didn't say you did which is why I wrote:
"(you may not view them as universally selfish or you might I don't know)" afterwards. I was just making a general point illustrated by what you had said.
I didn't mean to imply something about you which I couldn't know. I'm sorry.
Sure apology accepted. Though you must admit you bolded condemnation and used the words universal when no one in the thread had raised that issue.
So there was no issue of universal condemnation ever raised.

Please be careful.
Regards
Mark
 
It is a deeply intrusive act which at base suggests that the photographer thinks their pleasure, or gain, from taking the photograph is worth more than the grief of the person present - or more specifically worth more than the additional stress and offense they cause by their actions.

It indicates a total lack of empathy at best and a vile, selfish, person at worst.
You have hit the nail on the head here Dave.
People value their lust for blood more than they do the life of someone.
its an unfortunate world we live in.
--
Matt Simpson

 
I do know that if one of my loved ones was lying breathing their last, and someone stuck a camera in their face it would find its way up the photographers backsides.
I understand your sentiments, but why would you respond with violence to what is to most is just a distasteful act?

If you physically attack someone because they do something as simple as taking a picture of a dead/dying relative I'm not sure I like that-it sounds like you have anger problems or find this issue so upsetting that rational thought is hard for you.
It was actually a figure of speech. I have NEVER hit anyone out of anger in my life, bu could understand the frustration of those who may do so in these circumstances.
--
Matt Simpson

 
If we as a species are so evil, we would have disappeared a long, long time ago.
1) we have not been 'around' all that long, really. mankind is actually a recent blip on the universal timescale.

2) we are working on our own disappearance; just give us a little more time
There's no colective 'we' beyohd the tribe. Beyond that there is only demagogy, manipulation or, of course, projections of the self as it seems to be the case.
but on-topic: people pay to see boxing and other violent sports. people pay to watch race cars circle a boring track (they're there to see crashes, we know that).

we like to see others suffer. but even some animals have this trait, its not just humans (cats will torture their pray 'for fun' before they kill them, etc).
Oh, come on. Certainly you don't believe that, do you?
http://cats.suite101.com/article.cfm/why_cats_play_with_their_prey

The fact that you think that cats can torture says a lot about your self esteem
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My Galleries: http://webs.ono.com/igonzalezbordes/index.html
 
I have seen many dead people who have died violently through acts of their own or through accidents. I have also seen many photos of the same. This hasnt been through choice, but through the career path i have chosen to take.

I did once take a photo of a suicide victim, and only to show the scale of what had happened.

This guy had jumped from a VERY high bridge, and hit the floor, but survived. I sat with him for about 20 minutes talking it him until he passed away.

The photo i took was not to be macabre or ghoolish, but to show the scale of the height of the bridge with him in the frame for perspective.

In reality he was a small area in the photo and nothing could be seen to identify him, however i still felt bad having this image.

I cant quite put my finger on why i felt the way i did, but i deleted it a short while later.

I am a photographer and there are plenty more things out there to photograph. Some people dont even like photos of 'mock' suicides as they think they are disturbing. I too dont like them, but not sure if its just taste of something different.

I do know that if one of my loved ones was lying breathing their last, and someone stuck a camera in their face it would find its way up the photographers backsides.
And rightly so. Didn't the b*stard know that this is why god gave us telephoto lenses? And he calls himself a photgrapher?

BTW, do you find any particular pleasure in making irritating imaginary scenarios?

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My Galleries: http://webs.ono.com/igonzalezbordes/index.html
 
And rightly so. Didn't the b*stard know that this is why god gave us telephoto lenses? And he calls himself a photgrapher?

BTW, do you find any particular pleasure in making irritating imaginary scenarios?

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My Galleries: http://webs.ono.com/igonzalezbordes/index.html
God didnt give us telephotos, Canon did, and at great expense too.

I do get pleasure as it gives the mindless something to think about, when they cant think of their own irritating scenarios. Even you responded.

Thanks for your input, its appreciated.
--
Matt Simpson

 
It was actually a figure of speech. I have NEVER hit anyone out of anger in my life, bu could understand the frustration of those who may do so in these circumstances.
Matt it wasn't 'a figure of speech' when you said this:
I do know that if one of my loved ones was lying breathing their last, and someone stuck a camera in their face it would find its way up the photographers backsides.
That is a statement of intent (even if it is a bar room type brag), what you are saying is that faced with the situation of you being with a dying relative you would attack the person taking the photo.

What you need to understand here is that when you are actually faced with the situation of someone dying in front of you you feel no anger, in fact your inner survival processes kick in and you are pretty much oblivious to anyone but the dying person, you may ask for others help, but you're unlikely to feel moral indignation or anything that would side-track you.

This whole thread smacks a little of hyperbolics (sic) hence the 'stuck a camera in their face' emotive language which rarely happens.

What you might see is people watching out of curiosity, some from a distance may photograph- it's human nature not evil that makes us curious.
 
I did because I had to as a military photographer but certainly not my first choice. It is traumatic to photograph deceased persons but blown up parts of bodies is much worse.
--

' You don't have to have the best of everything to get the best out of what you do have'.
 
However I take issue with the condemnation of suicide victims as universally selfish
Please show me where I said that?
I didn't say you did which is why I wrote:
"(you may not view them as universally selfish or you might I don't know)" afterwards. I was just making a general point illustrated by what you had said.
I didn't mean to imply something about you which I couldn't know. I'm sorry.
Sure apology accepted. Though you must admit you bolded condemnation and used the words universal when no one in the thread had raised that issue.
So there was no issue of universal condemnation ever raised.

Please be careful.
Regards
Mark
True.

--
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/charleycoleman

http://www.new-oxford.com/users/charley.coleman
 

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