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Optical viewfinders will dissappear...

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pandalee said:
it must be removed the mirror box sound makes it so noisy and its annoying dust issue all solved by removing the mirror box and OVF.

EVF will be much better and it is the future will be imporved a lot more.

OVF reached to its limit.
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Not sure that is strictly true you are aware that there are mirrorless OVF cameras?

And also just because you have a mirror doesn't mean you have to have mirror blackout and the noise of the mirror moving.

There have been cameras produced with mirrors that don't have to move during exposure..
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/eos/EOS-1nRS/index1.htm

Another significant benefit brought with the fixed mirror is, since the mirror mechanism is fixed, the camera is free from mirror movement shock; as the mirror mechanism does not move, camera operation noise is reduced; further, as the limitation for entire pre-&-on exposure process doesn't factor in with the up/down reflex mirror sequence, extremely fast rapid sequence shooting exceeds the best performing rate with the standard Canon EOS-1N

So you can see not all is as you claim.
 
Barry Fitzgerald said:
Half the problem with the camera industry is they've no viewfinders at all on most compacts..it's not an EVF v OVF argument..they just don't want us to have viewfinders at all!
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Actually, Barry, whilst many of us will regret their passing, it happens that the composition of amateur shots has improved quite dramatically since eye-level viewfinders disappeared from basic point and shoot cameras.

Why has this happened?

Well, apart from the ability to instantly review a picture and shoot it again.....

It's clear that when tyros have a real little picture to LOOK AT, instead of a transparent window to LOOK THROUGH, they neglect to make some of the basic compositional errors that used to characterise snapshot photography....

... such errors as endeavouring to establish eye contact with a group of people-subjects through what seems much like a window..

.... and thereby inadvertently placing those eyes on the horizontal centreline of the frame....

.... and not noticing that there is considerable vacant space over their subjects' heads, AND that their feet are cut off.

Now, with arm's length view-finding, that kind error... in PART due to the eye-level viewfinder itself.... well, it just doesn't happen with LCD viewfinding.
--
Regards,
Baz

Well, I'll see your Cher, and your Streisand... and I'll raise you an Alice Babs!
 
recent test of all AF systems actually showed that the Panny G2 aF is the fastest of all AF systems.

the fastest AF in PDAF world was the Canon 7D and it was still slower than the CDAF of the G2.

this test was conducted at university of Tsukuba and reported 4 days a go here.

I dont think there is any English version there but it will come out soon.

and I think my NEX5 can AF very well , much more reliable , less erratic than my Canon Rebel t1or Kiss X3............however , the DSLR always tracks better as you stated.

I never shot my NEX5 and Canon 5D2 in the same place same time , so I cannot say how they compare but I have feeling the Sony is actually more precise at finding ultimate focus point on still or almost still subjects.

Compared to my D700 , it is the same and as I dont need high frame per second etc , I might sell my D700 for some more lenses and future Mirrorless cameras from Canon or Nikon.........I know they'll be also going EVIL main like Sony soon.

YMMV.
ljfinger said:
Cedarhill said:
I don't consider that series an overly challenging subject to shoot. I expect it could be done fairly easily with the faster micro 4/3 cameras.
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Well, it was at 150mm and f2.8 on full-frame so you'd need a 75mm f1.4 for that, and he was running so you'd need tracking autofocus that worked pretty fast with very shallow depth of field.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
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any way, you like it or not , in 5 years , you wont be able to buy a D-SLR or a D-range finder..............they will be obsolete very soon.

dont underestimate tech and EVF, Samsung ,Panny and Sony are all rich companies.
nikclick said:
amalric said:
ljfinger said:
Cedarhill said:
I suggest you start getting used to the idea that camera designs are changing because there is nothing you can do about it. You sound like the "film or nothing" guys from 10 years ago.
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If an EVF is going to replace my SLRs, it needs to have a delay of 2ms, a frame rate commensurate with that, a power usage of 1W or less, a resolution of at least 1200x800, at least nine stops of dynamic range and be color-calibrated with a wide color gamut. Since even $3000 EVF's on $20,000 cameras don't meet those specs today, it's difficult to imagine them getting there in a few years.
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And even if you had extreme needs, you could always stick an OVF in the hotshoe, or a red dot sight. LOL

As said above the EVF has so many advantages that the small tradeoffs are totally justified.
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I don't think it is necessary to try to convince ljfinger to try EVfs. It is new technology for this level of camera, and it isn't perfect, and probably doesn't fit with his needs. That's fine, we don't all have to be into the same things.

There is no reason the OVFs won't be with us forever IMHO, I think certainly for high end DSLRs they will still be making them for years and years, as it is such an established format, and in some curcumstances, will give an edge.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30225435@N00/
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ljfinger said:
amalric said:
LOL you are simply covering up your inability do adapt to further camera evolution.
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De-evolution.
Lee Jay said:
Those figures are nowhere near what is needed to do action shots. The µ4/3 forum has lots of them.
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Haven't seen one yet that was challenging.
Lee Jay said:
And even if you had extreme needs, you could always stick an OVF in the hotshoe, or a red dot sight. LOL
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That would be useless, especially for long-focal-length photography.
Lee Jay said:
As said above the EVF has so many advantages that the small tradeoffs are totally justified.
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There are very few advantages. Every once in a while I wish I had one for 10x manual focusing. That's the only advantage I've found, and I have two EVF cameras.
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imagine you can do this through the finder if you accept Panny G2 type of camera.

and I think it would be the ultimate street shooter.
Lee Jay said:
Lee Jay said:
I don't say it meanly but it will be a pleasure to see reactionaries who tried to hinder mirrorless in dozens and dozens of useless threads, go with their mirrors to the last brands which will carry them, at a price.
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If that's what it takes to get the shots I want to get.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
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PerL said:
amalric said:
ljfinger said:
Cedarhill said:
I have a 4 year old Panasonic FZ-8 with an EVF. There is no comparison between it and the EVF on the new Panasonic G1 or G2.
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In what way? Are talking about size and resolution or viewfinder lag and focusing performance?
PerL said:
If the same level of progress is achieved over the next 4 years, which I have no reason to doubt, then EVFs will finally become an adequate substirute for an OVF for most people. They will provide features for the tech savvy photographer that an OVF simply can't.
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So, you think I'm not tech savvy?
PerL said:
I suggest you start getting used to the idea that camera designs are changing because there is nothing you can do about it. You sound like the "film or nothing" guys from 10 years ago.
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If an EVF is going to replace my SLRs, it needs to have a delay of 2ms, a frame rate commensurate with that, a power usage of 1W or less, a resolution of at least 1200x800, at least nine stops of dynamic range and be color-calibrated with a wide color gamut. Since even $3000 EVF's on $20,000 cameras don't meet those specs today, it's difficult to imagine them getting there in a few years.
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LOL you are simply covering up your inability do adapt to further camera evolution. Those figures are nowhere near what is needed to do action shots. The µ4/3 forum has lots of them.
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Are there really lots? I keep looking for them. I see some, but not very convincing so far.
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yeah there are a lot of these already here.
PerL said:
PerL said:
And even if you had extreme needs, you could always stick an OVF in the hotshoe, or a red dot sight. LOL
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Does not work well with zoom or tele lenses.
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true but not all people shoot tele or long shots.

and this is the ultimate , inconspicuous street cam.
PerL said:
PerL said:
As said above the EVF has so many advantages that the small tradeoffs are totally justified.
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Mostly drawbacks IMO except for slow shooters and the companies saving money on skipping the mirror.
PerL said:
I don't say it meanly but it will be a pleasure to see reactionaries who tried to hinder mirrorless in dozens and dozens of useless threads, go with their mirrors to the last brands which will carry them, at a price.
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I guess allmost all professional are reactionaries then. I am sure there are extremly few who uses a mirrorless as their main system.
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there will be many as fullframe mirrorless will be out from Canon.
PerL said:
PerL said:
Am.
--
Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric
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--
http://dslr-video.com/blogmag/
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well said.
nikclick said:
ljfinger said:
nikclick said:
ljfinger said:
nikclick said:
Whilst there is a minute delay in seeing the image, I sincerely doubt that is the limiting factor for EVF cameras.
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This is an absolutely MASSIVE issue for me. It prevents me from getting the subjects into the frame.
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I doubt you have even tried. Have you shot action with a GH1?
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No. Does it's EVF update at 100fps or 500fps or is it 30fps like all the others I have shot with?
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No, it displays at 60FPS, which gives a 17 millisecond delay, which is not usually significant given human reaction times.
nikclick said:
nikclick said:
I have:
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That's a slow-moving loosely-framed subject shot with a short focal length. Multiply the speed and focal length by ten and get only, say, four times farther away and try it again.
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Ok, when I'm next at a race track I will :-)
nikclick said:
nikclick said:
The camera is not the limiting aspect.
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On all the EVF cameras and camcorders I've used it is.
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The GH1 EVF is exceptional. It may not be for you, if you are needing every last millisecond of speed, but for most, it is better than good enough.
nikclick said:
nikclick said:
nikclick said:
nikclick said:
The things that are currently holding back micro four thirds cameras for being DSLR beaters is slightly slower focus lock and less rapid continuous shooting.
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It's not slightly, and continuous shooting speed isn't an issue for me.
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Slower / slightly slower. Semantics, what are the figures?
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Try shooting a subject that is moving toward or away from the camera at 10-20 depths-of-field per second, and getting the subject in-focus.
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I agree that is hard (shooting fast trains, for example). The faster, the better. Pre-focus in manual is more sure footed.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30225435@N00/
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nikclick said:
nikclick said:
Razr wrote:

Optical viewfinders allow for instant composition and shutter release coordination.
Click to expand...
Whilst there is a minute delay in seeing the image, I sincerely doubt that is the limiting factor for EVF cameras.
Click to expand...
Show me the EVF only camera which can match the .0006 microsecond shutter release time of my EOS 1Ds?
nikclick said:
For all cameras, there is a delay between pressing the shutter release and the picture happening.
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Yeah. For my 1Ds its ....0006 of a second. The lag time between what appears in an EVF camera finder is at least .040th of a second.
nikclick said:
An OVF camera has to swing the mirror out the way before it starts taking the picture, and this takes time.
Click to expand...
Yep: about .0006th of a second for my 1Ds. And that's immediately followed by the second and subsequent shots.
nikclick said:
An EVF camera doesn't have this delay.
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Yeah: it's worse.
nikclick said:
The things that are currently holding back micro four thirds cameras for being DSLR beaters is slightly slower focus lock and less rapid continuous shooting.
Click to expand...
Yeah that and the fact it cannot shoot at .0006 of a second.
Fact of the matter is, my 1991 EOS A2 can shoot at 5fps unboosted .
 
what he said is right actually.

there is delay in the OVF too always due to mirror slap motion, which you cannot avoid as long as you use old film based tech such as D-SLR and SLR.

current annoying D-SLR system just exsists in this transitional time from film to digital but after that we will not see them any more.

even big FF sports body will be mirrorless , I think Canon 1D 5 might possibly be first pro class mirrorless that takes all EF lenses.
ljfinger said:
MusicDoctorDJ said:
ljfinger said:
This guy thinks I'm waiting for something to appear in the viewfinder and then reacting to that and shooting it. WRONG!
Cedarhill said:
May I request that you do not put words in my mouth or deliberately misinterpret my posts just to make your point?
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Wasn't talking about you. I was talking about MusicDoctorDJ.
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Well . . . if that is the case, then you are STILL wrong!

Because that is not what I said . . .
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This is what you said:

"Even in an OVF, by the time you see something in the viewfinder and you press the shutter release, you've already missed it! "

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
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PerL said:
nikclick said:
ljfinger said:
nikclick said:
Whilst there is a minute delay in seeing the image, I sincerely doubt that is the limiting factor for EVF cameras.
Click to expand...
This is an absolutely MASSIVE issue for me. It prevents me from getting the subjects into the frame.
Click to expand...
I doubt you have even tried. Have you shot action with a GH1? I have:
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PerL said:
The camera is not the limiting aspect.
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I have shot with G1/G2 and Samsung NX. It definitly is much more limiting with an EVF than an OVF.
PerL said:
PerL said:
PerL said:
For all cameras, there is a delay between pressing the shutter release and the picture happening. An OVF camera has to swing the mirror out the way before it starts taking the picture, and this takes time. An EVF camera doesn't have this delay.
Click to expand...
That's a different, and far less important delay.
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It is a very important delay, the same as any other delay between pressing the shutter button, and the picture getting taken. Plus your image is blanked out during this process.
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There is a huge difference between the short black out from the mirror and freezing/black out from any EVF which makes is it almost impossible to follow action during continous shooting.

The EVFs lags and when you move the camera fast you get a jello effect and the VF turns blurry for a short time, while an OVF is stable as a rock.
PerL said:
PerL said:
PerL said:
The things that are currently holding back micro four thirds cameras for being DSLR beaters is slightly slower focus lock and less rapid continuous shooting.
Click to expand...
It's not slightly, and continuous shooting speed isn't an issue for me.
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Slower / slightly slower. Semantics, what are the figures? Who cares, go shoot :-)
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The difference is how serious one is about getting the shot. For some people their jobs hang on it.
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for boring sports or bird in flight type of photography the OVF might live a bit longer than a couple of years but that is it.

after that even sport guys shooting with EVF.

the problem always seen in this site is many many think pro mean jsome kind of wedding , PJ or sport shooters, all of these are pro but there are many other kinds of pros out there that do not need high ISO or super AF.
PerL said:
PerL said:
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30225435@N00/
Click to expand...
--
http://dslr-video.com/blogmag/
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Razr said:
nikclick said:
Razr said:
Razr wrote:

Optical viewfinders allow for instant composition and shutter release coordination.
Click to expand...
Whilst there is a minute delay in seeing the image, I sincerely doubt that is the limiting factor for EVF cameras.
Click to expand...
Show me the EVF only camera which can match the .0006 microsecond shutter release time of my EOS 1Ds?
Click to expand...
in a couple of years , you will see it.
Razr said:
Razr said:
For all cameras, there is a delay between pressing the shutter release and the picture happening.
Click to expand...
Yeah. For my 1Ds its ....0006 of a second. The lag time between what appears in an EVF camera finder is at least .040th of a second.
Razr said:
An OVF camera has to swing the mirror out the way before it starts taking the picture, and this takes time.
Click to expand...
Yep: about .0006th of a second for my 1Ds. And that's immediately followed by the second and subsequent shots.
Razr said:
An EVF camera doesn't have this delay.
Click to expand...
Yeah: it's worse.
Razr said:
The things that are currently holding back micro four thirds cameras for being DSLR beaters is slightly slower focus lock and less rapid continuous shooting.
Click to expand...
Yeah that and the fact it cannot shoot at .0006 of a second.
Fact of the matter is, my 1991 EOS A2 can shoot at 5fps unboosted .
Click to expand...
 
but they are still overpriced dinosaurs, with ancient film tech.
RedFox88 said:
Razr said:
Until then, and as long as there are NFL & NBA games...and POLO, optical viewfinders have a place, at least with those people who shoot fast action and who also buy $8,999 SLRs.
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Where are the $9000 dSLRs? Or did you mean $7,999 ($8000)? The d3x and 1Ds3 were $8000 when new.
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Mark Smith said:
pandalee said:
it must be removed the mirror box sound makes it so noisy and its annoying dust issue all solved by removing the mirror box and OVF.

EVF will be much better and it is the future will be imporved a lot more.

OVF reached to its limit.
Click to expand...
Not sure that is strictly true you are aware that there are mirrorless OVF cameras?

And also just because you have a mirror doesn't mean you have to have mirror blackout and the noise of the mirror moving.
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I know this but the what you call? Pellicle mirror? it also has other issues such as darkened sensor and something else I forgot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellicle_mirror

But the Mirror is the problem and that makes camera much weaker than it can be without it.

The mirror was the first part to break and correct dust always.
Mark Smith145430 said:
There have been cameras produced with mirrors that don't have to move during exposure..
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/eos/EOS-1nRS/index1.htm

Another significant benefit brought with the fixed mirror is, since the mirror mechanism is fixed, the camera is free from mirror movement shock; as the mirror mechanism does not move, camera operation noise is reduced; further, as the limitation for entire pre-&-on exposure process doesn't factor in with the up/down reflex mirror sequence, extremely fast rapid sequence shooting exceeds the best performing rate with the standard Canon EOS-1N

So you can see not all is as you claim.
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pandalee said:
for boring sports or bird in flight type of photography the OVF might live a bit longer than a couple of years but that is it.
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Boring sports and bird photos? LOL

You seem to be admitting that there are some types of photography where EVF might struggle (OK they are only the boring ones).

In which case it has limitations, which you seem to think will be addressed with future tech –currently non existing products.

Thats an interesting POV one that says I can't do it now so its not an important/boring branch of photography, we will be able to do it in the future.

So your whole argument is based on your belief and blind faith in a system that you admit currently doesn't work well in those situaltions will do in two years.

EVF may indeed be the future, or some other tech coming out later this year might trump it-thats what tech is like- transient. One things for sure EVF is no panacea now-and that's where I live in the here and now.
 
so, then I ask you these 2 questions below:

1 have you ever shot with NEX, EP2 or G2 GH1,etc?
2 have you ever compared LV of your D700 to LV of these EVILs ?

I have the D700 too and I do use LV often and I dislike its LV system.

The 5D2 has a bit better LV but still it is not as good as LV of any EVILs I mentioned.
kribee2 said:
Same with my D700. It works for me. Why should we add more electronic stuff to something which works already well?
Maybe it's me..
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pandalee said:
I know this but the what you call? Pellicle mirror? it also has other issues such as darkened sensor and something else I forgot.
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So no system is perfect, the thing you're thinking of is 1/3 stop light reduction to the film/sensor due to splitting, but with digital it would be a non issue as gain can be adjusted with the sensor to compensate for the 1/3rd of a stop.
pandalee said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellicle_mirror

But the Mirror is the problem and that makes camera much weaker than it can be without it.
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Why would a stationary mirror be weaker-can you provide reasoning?
pandalee said:
The mirror was the first part to break and correct dust always.
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Really I've used the camera and never had the mirror break, why should it it doesn't actually move-you do realise that?

Dust will be a problem with interchangable lenses and is a different issue to OVF.

You are aware there are OVF cameras with no mirror and fixed lenses? and OVF without mirrors, OVF with fixed mirrors.
You seem to be ignoring those products in your arguments.
 
Barrie Davis said:
Actually, Barry, whilst many of us will regret their passing, it happens that the composition of amateur shots has improved quite dramatically since eye-level viewfinders disappeared from basic point and shoot cameras.
Click to expand...
Has it? Not sure I'm seeing this..
Barrie Davis said:
Why has this happened?

Well, apart from the ability to instantly review a picture and shoot it again.....
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You can do that with any digital camera OVF or not.
Barrie Davis said:
Now, with arm's length view-finding, that kind error... in PART due to the eye-level viewfinder itself.... well, it just doesn't happen with LCD viewfinding.
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But arms length holding helps increase camera shake.
 
pandalee said:
what he said is right actually.

there is delay in the OVF too always due to mirror slap motion,...
Click to expand...
No, I'm not talking about shutter lag, I'm talking about viewfinder lag - time between when the light enters the lens and when it leaves the viewfinder.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
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