How PD AF Works (was T2i - Can't get good focus, need help)

You want me to make an external aperture that gives the same shutter speed as f/16? Doesn't sound too difficult. What do I do with it then?
Show us the photo taken with the apparatus compared to one taken with actual f/16. If you recall, I said that such an external aperture would cause vignetting and thus is not a good way to simulate the effect of virtual aperture on an AF system as you were trying to do with the f/2.8 version.
How is my question about the effect of an f/2.8-equivalent external aperture wrong?
Because it doesn't scale. If the method were valid, it should work for all apertures equally.
You mean the stuff that I'm not modelling? Well, yeah, that's what out of scope means. Do you have any evidence within the scope of the model that I haven't considered?
No. Within the scope I essentially agree with you for everything but the interpretation of what the final "confirmation" is. Both interpretations of confirmation will have identical behaviors for AF within the scope you consider; mine just accounts for something outside that scope.
Correct. "Equals" comes from the evidence you get from doing the tests. "Does not preclude" simply invalidates your excuse for not accepting the evidence.
Only if you exclude the behaviors that suggest it's incorrect by declaring them outside of the theory.
Only in a theory that attempts to explain that, i.e. not mine.
But that's what we are discussing: my modification to your theory to account for observed lens dependent FF/BF issues.
That's not the purpose of this thread.
Well, it's the purpose of about 40% of it (my "contributions") as you will.
You'd be surprised. :-)
Surprise me - I haven't seen that come up very often as a question in this forum and I've been reading it (and it's predecessors) for almost 10 years now.

--
Erik
 
You want me to make an external aperture that gives the same shutter speed as f/16? Doesn't sound too difficult. What do I do with it then?
Show us the photo taken with the apparatus compared to one taken with actual f/16.
Mm, that would be a photo of a vignette. What would that tell us about the control process and focus confirmation in PD AF when the AF sensor is well-illuminated?
If you recall, I said that such an external aperture would cause vignetting and thus is not a good way to simulate the effect of virtual aperture on an AF system as you were trying to do with the f/2.8 version.
I was? Okay, if you say so. :-)
How is my question about the effect of an f/2.8-equivalent external aperture wrong?
Because it doesn't scale. If the method were valid, it should work for all apertures equally.
The method? Not sure what you're on about, but I can't agree with what you just said. I'm sure there would come a point (way before an f/16-equivalent, I bet), where the AF sensor will not be illuminated, like when you put an f/11 lens on an f/5.6 AF sensor (i.e. we're talking about the ray paths to the base of the virtual range finder, not the lack of illuminance). That will interfere significantly with the AF process, and not reveal anything relevant and interesting about the normal course of events.

I'm just interested in whether you think the f/2.8-equivalent external aperture would make the front-focus error better or worse, that's all. Go on, have a go. Toss a coin if you can't work something out - that will give the right answer 50% of the time. :-)
You mean the stuff that I'm not modelling? Well, yeah, that's what out of scope means. Do you have any evidence within the scope of the model that I haven't considered?
No. Within the scope I essentially agree with you for everything but the interpretation of what the final "confirmation" is. Both interpretations of confirmation will have identical behaviors for AF within the scope you consider; mine just accounts for something outside that scope.
Okay, I've lost track of your model, so please describe the whole thing, and tell me how to create evidence with a Rebel in my hands that suggests how focus confirmation is done. (Speculation about which EF protocol messages pass between the body and lens is not "Rebel in my hands" evidence, although it may be quite interesting.) IOW, come up with a test that tells us something new about focus confirmation.
Correct. "Equals" comes from the evidence you get from doing the tests. "Does not preclude" simply invalidates your excuse for not accepting the evidence.
Only if you exclude the behaviors that suggest it's incorrect by declaring them outside of the theory.
Okay, identify the behaviours that suggest it's incorrect, and provide tests that show it. I genuinely hope that you come up with something new, like Phil did (bless him).
Only in a theory that attempts to explain that, i.e. not mine.
But that's what we are discussing: my modification to your theory to account for observed lens dependent FF/BF issues.
All I've seen are attempts to go inside the black box and justify your initial position, or at least the residual "open-loop focus confirmation" position. I hope what I've asked for above will clear that up for me. The bottom line for me, from everything everyone has done together on this, is we have proved that you can't get focus confirmation without illuminating the AF sensor. That's definitively closed-loop all the way through. End of story.
Surprise me - I haven't seen that [open-loop vs closed-loop] come up very often as a question in this forum and I've been reading it (and it's predecessors) for almost 10 years now.
Check any thread about focus accuracy and sooner or later someone will claim that it's an open-loop process, as you did. I swallowed it whole when I began to investigate this stuff too, so you might even find me saying it! People depend on that myth every day to make (the wrong) sense of what's going on. It's a flat-earth argument.
 
Mm, that would be a photo of a vignette.
Yes, now you understand.
What would that tell us about the control process and focus confirmation in PD AF when the AF sensor is well-illuminated?
The same thing that "I made an external aperture (a cardboard disk on the front of the lens with a round hole concentric with the lens axis), which gave the same shutter speed as shooting at f/2.8" tells you about AF. Nothing useful because it doesn't simulate anything but vignetting.
I was? Okay, if you say so. :-)
Short memory?
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=35925493
like when you put an f/11 lens on an f/5.6 AF sensor
Sigh - an external aperture that has the same exposure as f/11 and f/11 lens are very different optically - that's the whole point of my f/16 request as you seem to think that f/2.8 is somehow exempt from this optical difference.
I'm just interested in whether you think the f/2.8-equivalent external aperture would make the front-focus error better or worse, that's all.
Why is the behavior of a vignetted lens of any relevance? It's not the equivalent of an actual f/2.8 aperture so I'm saying the experiment is too flawed to even consider.
Okay, I've lost track of your model, so please describe the whole thing, and tell me how to create evidence with a Rebel in my hands that suggests how focus confirmation is done.
The only difference from your theory is the mechanism for "focus confirmation". It's not necessarily when the phase difference is zero, but when the difference between the AF computed lens position and the reported lens position is zero. If one of the AF calculation/precision factors reported by the lens is incorrect or inaccurate for that lens copy, then the AF system will compute an incorrect focus position and send the lens there. There are a several different ways this could be implemented depending on the specifics of the lens/camera protocol.

There are two possible verifications:

a) snoop the lens protocol to see exactly what in the camera/lens communication sequence.

b) purchase the lens from someone who has severe FF and BF issues. If this lens gives focus confirmation when using AF that is incorrect, but is optically indistinguishable when manually focussed via the sensor, then there is no optical justification for FF or BF. Technically, this does not prove my theory, but it would disprove yours. You cannot posit some mysterious optical difference between two lenses that would completely fool the AF sensor yet not be visible with correctly focussed images. Or rather, you can try but few will take you seriously.
Okay, identify the behaviours that suggest it's incorrect, and provide tests that show it. I genuinely hope that you come up with something new, like Phil did (bless him).
See above.
The bottom line for me, from everything everyone has done together on this, is we have proved that you can't get focus confirmation without illuminating the AF sensor.
This is true.
That's definitively closed-loop all the way through. End of story.
It's this conclusion that may be faulty. You still have to have a reasonable explanation for a "closed-loop all the way through" scenario that accounts for observed FF and BF behavior. You can argue that even my modification is still "closed all the way through" but just with a different closure/feedback condition. That's simply semantics.
Check any thread about focus accuracy and sooner or later someone will claim that it's an open-loop process, as you did.
The only reason people claim open-loop is for what you consider outside your theory: lens dependent consistent FF & BF. So the squirrel test only comes up for the subset of posts where you want to demonstrate that it's more than look-once-move-once. Your (and others) experiments conclusively show this is true but fail to satisfy the underlying question.

--
Erik
 
The only difference from your theory is the mechanism for "focus confirmation". It's not necessarily when the phase difference is zero, but when the difference between the AF computed lens position and the reported lens position is zero. If one of the AF calculation/precision factors reported by the lens is incorrect or inaccurate for that lens copy, then the AF system will compute an incorrect focus position and send the lens there. There are a several different ways this could be implemented depending on the specifics of the lens/camera protocol.
The bottom line for me, from everything everyone has done together on this, is we have proved that you can't get focus confirmation without illuminating the AF sensor.
This is true.
Why should it be true? Your theory says that the lens simply has to report the same lens position as the AF did. What is the purpose of illuminating the AF sensor again before "focus confirmation"?
 
Why should it be true? Your theory says that the lens simply has to report the same lens position as the AF did. What is the purpose of illuminating the AF sensor again before "focus confirmation"?
There is still a confirmation step, e.g. the AF system has to check that the AF solution has not changed (e.g. the target moved) since the last computation. Really the only difference is that I've changed the definition of "confimed". Perhaps the AF system always wants to check focus after the lens has stopped moving because those calculations can be more precise then ones done on while the lens is in motion.

--
Erik
 
So won't the AF sensor see a different phase difference after adjusting focus? Or will the phase difference still be the same?
 
So won't the AF sensor see a different phase difference after adjusting focus? Or will the phase difference still be the same?
That's the $64k question. I suspect it may see a phase difference, but since the lens is already supposed to be in the correct focus position decides this solution/difference is as good as it can get.

--
Erik
 
What most posters want to know is why calibration is needed.
I'm guessing the front- or back-focus happens due to the distance difference between the AF sensor and the Image sensor. When there is any difference, the AF sensor makes a correction - effectively telling the lens to focus in front or behind the target (from the AF sensor's viewpoint) so the image on the Image sensor is properly in focus. This is the software "fix" for front- or back-focusing bodies. But the amount by which the AF sensor thinks the image should be in front or behind will depend on the lens, focal length, and focus distance. There must be communication protocols for this that can get screwed up (e.g., the lens not communicating the focus distance properly).
I'll call that Theory 1. Fixing this type of FF/BF issue would require both lens and body.

Theory 2 is more relevant to variation between lenses of the same type:

The AF system works at the maximum aperture of the lens. Many lenses are quite soft at their maximum aperture. This softness occurs because light from a target point takes all paths available to the image sensor, but the paths vary in their focal length. I.e., light hits the entire lens (just considering it as one element), but light that travels through the edges of the lens may be focused in front of the IS while light traveling through the center of the lens may be focused behind. The result is a soft image, with the lens displaying a continuum of focal lengths, rather than just one.

Now, the AF system takes the light from 2 paths near the edge of the lens, and compares them to determine the correct focal distance. In the above example, the AF sensor would tell the lens to shorten focal length so the 2 paths become in phase - focusing properly on the AF sensor. But then most of the light from the image (especially if stopped down) would be coming through the center of the lens and would focus behind the IS. The lens would appear to be front focusing. This could be corrected by calibrating the lens without the body being present.

I believe these theories fit is with Wiba's general argument in the thread.

Cheers,

Nigel
 
So won't the AF sensor see a different phase difference after adjusting focus? Or will the phase difference still be the same?
That's the $64k question. I suspect it may see a phase difference, but since the lens is already supposed to be in the correct focus position decides this solution/difference is as good as it can get.

--
Erik
Hi,

Could it be that (in one shot mode, with a static subject) :-

1. The camera does the best calculation it can, with the available lens data and the measured phase difference.

2. The Camera commands the lens to go to that focus position.

3. On route, the camera re-checks phase and does not see any major difference in the initial calculated focus position. (i.e. progress is still heading towards the "1 DOF" or "20um CoC" max error.)

4. Lens gets there and signals "done".

5. Camera re-checks phase and if it's within 1 DOF, it simply gives focus conformation???

With regards to 'lens data I'm thinking of ...

Focal length
Max aperture
Lens extension sensitivity coefficient
Lens extension compensation coefficient
Maximum defocus quantity
Best focus compensation value

Note - I'm not trying to define every step here, just to outline a possibility.

I'm thinking along the lines of :-

A good lens (or well calibrated lens), has good 'lens data' to get spot on the first attempt.

A really bad lens, is far off target and so gets another stab to get within the CoC...
and as its much closer to focus, it could be quite accurate on the 2nd attempt.

A reasonable lens that's a 'bit off' - ends up off focus, but well within the CoC and so it never gets another go - as the phase difference is well within (20um CoC) limits.

What do you think??

Regards

Andy.
 
What most posters want to know is why calibration is needed.
I'm guessing the front- or back-focus happens due to the distance difference between the AF sensor and the Image sensor. When there is any difference, the AF sensor makes a correction - effectively telling the lens to focus in front or behind the target (from the AF sensor's viewpoint) so the image on the Image sensor is properly in focus. This is the software "fix" for front- or back-focusing bodies. But the amount by which the AF sensor thinks the image should be in front or behind will depend on the lens, focal length, and focus distance. There must be communication protocols for this that can get screwed up (e.g., the lens not communicating the focus distance properly).
I'll call that Theory 1. Fixing this type of FF/BF issue would require both lens and body.

Theory 2 is more relevant to variation between lenses of the same type:

The AF system works at the maximum aperture of the lens. Many lenses are quite soft at their maximum aperture. This softness occurs because light from a target point takes all paths available to the image sensor, but the paths vary in their focal length. I.e., light hits the entire lens (just considering it as one element), but light that travels through the edges of the lens may be focused in front of the IS while light traveling through the center of the lens may be focused behind. The result is a soft image, with the lens displaying a continuum of focal lengths, rather than just one.
Not all lenses behave the same on all bodies. Some bodies are MUCH MORE accurate with certain lenses, than others. The EOS 350D is/was a very notorious problematic AF-body, with a lot of lenses. However, it could also AF GREAT with other lenses.

So, this is not the answer for all AF "problems"
Now, the AF system takes the light from 2 paths near the edge of the lens, and compares them to determine the correct focal distance. In the above example, the AF sensor would tell the lens to shorten focal length so the 2 paths become in phase - focusing properly on the AF sensor. But then most of the light from the image (especially if stopped down) would be coming through the center of the lens and would focus behind the IS. The lens would appear to be front focusing. This could be corrected by calibrating the lens without the body being present.

I believe these theories fit is with Wiba's general argument in the thread.

Cheers,

Nigel
The AF does not take light from 2 paths near the edge of the lens. As you may (or may not) know, the AF sensor has different AF points, all of which get fed different parts of the image. The idea that there actually are two paths near the edge of the lens comes from that internet paper by kerr (or k-something else).

But, just spend some time looking at the sensor optical path openings on the bottom of your camera. You will notice a pattern which somewhat resembles the AF point pattern in the view finder. For the 450D with its diamond shaped AF point pattern, you can clearly observe 3 not totally rectangular openings, with shapes indicating the basic square of the "middle" 5 points, and extensions in those shapes for right most, left most, top most and bottom most points.

I am not prepared to open up my camera to study the separate optical lens systems/paths, though :P.

The AF sensor optics use an OOF image to determine focus. In a way, it is looking at what we see as "bokeh" as end product, the widening doubleness we start to see in OOF areas is basically the "left" and "right" image the AF sensor compares (or top and bottom).

What the AF will never do either, is "determining the the correct focal distance". It can't do that. It only can see a phase difference, but does not know what focal distance that translates to with the lens system, the lens system is unknown by the AF system.

Lenses that show a focus shift when closing down are not just calibrate-able just like that either. Else lenses like the 50mm f1.2 L would not show that behavior.

That focus shifts CAN be a cause for inaccurate focussing is evident, though. They will then show that behavior on different camera bodies, of course. Where it CAN vary, depending on the AF sensor, and used AF point.

We already know for instance that on a 5D using the outer points with the 50mm f1.2 can resolve some of the focus shift problems.

Again, this is not the explanation for all AF problems.
 
Not all lenses behave the same on all bodies. Some bodies are MUCH MORE accurate with certain lenses, than others. The EOS 350D is/was a very notorious problematic AF-body, with a lot of lenses. However, it could also AF GREAT with other lenses.
So Theory 1 would hold for those lenses? Don't forget the extremely tight manufacturing tolerances...
So, this is not the answer for all AF "problems"
You mean Theory 2 is not the answer to all AF problems? What about adding Theory 1?
Now, the AF system takes the light from 2 paths near the edge of the lens, and compares them to determine the correct focal distance. In the above example, the AF sensor would tell the lens to shorten focal length so the 2 paths become in phase - focusing properly on the AF sensor. But then most of the light from the image (especially if stopped down) would be coming through the center of the lens and would focus behind the IS. The lens would appear to be front focusing. This could be corrected by calibrating the lens without the body being present.
The AF does not take light from 2 paths near the edge of the lens. As you may (or may not) know, the AF sensor has different AF points, all of which get fed different parts of the image. The idea that there actually are two paths near the edge of the lens comes from that internet paper by kerr (or k-something else).
So how does phase detect work then? It compares the images coming from 2 parts of the lens and then adjusts until they are in phase. The images are of the same target. It is the same with range finders from old WW2 battleship guns - except their "eyes" were 50ft (or so) apart. The wider the "eyes", the more accurate the distance calculation to the target.
The AF sensor optics use an OOF image to determine focus. In a way, it is looking at what we see as "bokeh" as end product, the widening doubleness we start to see in OOF areas is basically the "left" and "right" image the AF sensor compares (or top and bottom).
Now you are saying the AF sensor does compare a "left" and "right" image. That sounds like comparing images (which start at the same target) that come through 2 differnt parts of the lens. So what are you disagreeing with me about? The precise mechanism may be subtly different, but the basic principle of what is being done is the important thing.
What the AF will never do either, is "determining the the correct focal distance". It can't do that. It only can see a phase difference, but does not know what focal distance that translates to with the lens system, the lens system is unknown by the AF system.
(How is this relevant?)
Lenses that show a focus shift when closing down are not just calibrate-able just like that either. Else lenses like the 50mm f1.2 L would not show that behavior.
(how is this relevant?)
That focus shifts CAN be a cause for inaccurate focussing is evident, though. They will then show that behavior on different camera bodies, of course. Where it CAN vary, depending on the AF sensor, and used AF point.
(I was not talking about focus shifts)
We already know for instance that on a 5D using the outer points with the 50mm f1.2 can resolve some of the focus shift problems.
(I was not talking about focus shifts)
Again, this is not the explanation for all AF problems.
So this means you think it is the explanation for some AF problems, like FF/BF focus? ;)
 
So won't the AF sensor see a different phase difference after adjusting focus? Or will the phase difference still be the same?
That's the $64k question. I suspect it may see a phase difference, but since the lens is already supposed to be in the correct focus position decides this solution/difference is as good as it can get.

--
Erik
Hi,

Could it be that (in one shot mode, with a static subject) :-

1. The camera does the best calculation it can, with the available lens data and the measured phase difference.

2. The Camera commands the lens to go to that focus position.
The camera cannot command the lens to do that. See below.
3. On route, the camera re-checks phase and does not see any major difference in the initial calculated focus position. (i.e. progress is still heading towards the "1 DOF" or "20um CoC" max error.)

4. Lens gets there and signals "done".

5. Camera re-checks phase and if it's within 1 DOF, it simply gives focus conformation???
This can NOT explain the OOF results that occur with certain lens/body combinations, sometimes. Results can be a LOT outside "1 DOF", whatever the units DOF would actually be.
With regards to 'lens data I'm thinking of ...

Focal length
Max aperture
Lens extension sensitivity coefficient
Lens extension compensation coefficient
Maximum defocus quantity
Best focus compensation value
The camera can not know the focal length, and this is the most problematic parameter. It is one that would be needed, though to calculate "where the lens has to go" by evaluation phase difference.

Why do I say the camera can not know the focal length? Because all the evidence shows it does not. The only thing the lens tells about its focal length is the setting the user does on its not so accurate focal length scale (in case of a zoom lens), or its nominal focal length. This reported focal length only is used for EXIF purposes.

Consider this:
  • The reported focal length, and the actual focal length, can differ a HUGE amount. Think of focus breathing (extreme examples: 18-2XX ultrazoom lenses get close to the nominal 200mm at infinity, but closer to 135mm at MFD. Same with the new Nikon 70-200 f2.8 VR II and Sigma 70-200mm f2.8 OS.
  • Adding a TC alters both the focal length, and the aperture, significantly. While some converters make themselves known to the lens and body (for instance, the Canon extenders), others are unknown, invisible to the system (Non pro-series Kenko, Soligor, Tamron, others). Yet AF remains as fast and as accurate as before, in good light.
Max aperture also is unknown. Some f6.3 lenses lie to the body that they are f5.6, just to keep the AF working. Adding non-reporting TC's also make the aperture smaller than the camera body knows.
Note - I'm not trying to define every step here, just to outline a possibility.

I'm thinking along the lines of :-

A good lens (or well calibrated lens), has good 'lens data' to get spot on the first attempt.
See above... plainly WRONG lens data still allows the AF to work as fast and "spot on" "on the first attempt".

Also consider the following aspects, which do interfere with this idea of how AF works:

When you have a reporting TC (it makes itself known to the camera system), an 1.4x TC makes the AUTO FOCUS move slower, HALF the speed of the AF speed without the TC (for Canon EOS anyway). A 2x TC halves the speed again, to 1/4th of the AF-speed movement of the AF speed without TC.
With non-reporting TC's you do not see that.

Now... the ONLY POSSIBLE reason for Canon to slow the AF down, is because AF goes in steps, and during the steps, the focus gets checked. Lenses get optimized in their movement steps to reach focus as quickly as possible, while still being accurate. The lens' AF motor and electronics then get optimized for the lens specifically... its light speed, its motor. If we put a TC in, the light speed goes down. This apparently can influence the AF, but does not have to influence it (non-reporting TC's still can perform very well). So that than has to be attributed to just the loss of light. We do know that lenses AF more difficult the lower light gets.

Now if it is only one measurement, and determining the spot the lens has to move to, lower light would only influence the speed of reading the PD (even though that does not make much sense), but in actuality the whole motor movement slows down.
A really bad lens, is far off target and so gets another stab to get within the CoC...
and as its much closer to focus, it could be quite accurate on the 2nd attempt.

A reasonable lens that's a 'bit off' - ends up off focus, but well within the CoC and so it never gets another go - as the phase difference is well within (20um CoC) limits.

What do you think??
I think I have a very big problem with the assumption focal length is actually reported.
 
The AF sensor optics use an OOF image to determine focus. In a way, it is looking at what we see as "bokeh" as end product, the widening doubleness we start to see in OOF areas is basically the "left" and "right" image the AF sensor compares (or top and bottom).

Lenses that show a focus shift when closing down are not just calibrate-able just like that either. Else lenses like the 50mm f1.2 L would not show that behavior.

That focus shifts CAN be a cause for inaccurate focussing is evident, though. They will then show that behavior on different camera bodies, of course. Where it CAN vary, depending on the AF sensor, and used AF point.
On reflection, I think my explanation may help with focus shift. Let's suppose the lens is not very good - the effective focal length of "left" and "right" (using your terms, since you don't like my explanation using paths) elements of the lens is 49mm and the center element is 51mm. Wide open, the best focus assumes a focal length of 50mm - it's a bit soft, but that's the lens for you. The lens is calibrated to adjust the 49mm the AF sensor sees to look like a 50mm on the IS. The lens is as sharp as it can be wide open (which is not very). But when stopped down, the image only comes through the center element - a 51mm focal length. The lens back-focuses when stopped down! Hey presto! Focus shift! :)
 
Not all lenses behave the same on all bodies. Some bodies are MUCH MORE accurate with certain lenses, than others. The EOS 350D is/was a very notorious problematic AF-body, with a lot of lenses. However, it could also AF GREAT with other lenses.
So Theory 1 would hold for those lenses? Don't forget the extremely tight manufacturing tolerances...
So, this is not the answer for all AF "problems"
You mean Theory 2 is not the answer to all AF problems? What about adding Theory 1?
Now, the AF system takes the light from 2 paths near the edge of the lens, and compares them to determine the correct focal distance. In the above example, the AF sensor would tell the lens to shorten focal length so the 2 paths become in phase - focusing properly on the AF sensor. But then most of the light from the image (especially if stopped down) would be coming through the center of the lens and would focus behind the IS. The lens would appear to be front focusing. This could be corrected by calibrating the lens without the body being present.
The AF does not take light from 2 paths near the edge of the lens. As you may (or may not) know, the AF sensor has different AF points, all of which get fed different parts of the image. The idea that there actually are two paths near the edge of the lens comes from that internet paper by kerr (or k-something else).
So how does phase detect work then? It compares the images coming from 2 parts of the lens and then adjusts until they are in phase. The images are of the same target. It is the same with range finders from old WW2 battleship guns - except their "eyes" were 50ft (or so) apart. The wider the "eyes", the more accurate the distance calculation to the target.
Yes, it looks at two directions. It looks at a certain spot at the light coming from the left, and at the light coming from the right (as far as I can determine).

Your WW2 battleship did not have a 50ft lens, I bet. So... we can not say it was looking at the edge of the lens. Merely at two offset images. And with the battleship, the exact properties were known (with lenses they are not, we do not know the focal length for instance).

We know that while the 1D series do not have wider eyes, they still see more accurately, apparently (more accurate focus results, and they keep on focussing till f8).
The AF sensor optics use an OOF image to determine focus. In a way, it is looking at what we see as "bokeh" as end product, the widening doubleness we start to see in OOF areas is basically the "left" and "right" image the AF sensor compares (or top and bottom).
Now you are saying the AF sensor does compare a "left" and "right" image. That sounds like comparing images (which start at the same target) that come through 2 differnt parts of the lens. So what are you disagreeing with me about? The precise mechanism may be subtly different, but the basic principle of what is being done is the important thing.
Yes, the basic idea is that one half looks at a part of the image via the light rays coming from the left, the other half looks at the same part of the projected image via light rays coming from the right.
What the AF will never do either, is "determining the the correct focal distance". It can't do that. It only can see a phase difference, but does not know what focal distance that translates to with the lens system, the lens system is unknown by the AF system.
(How is this relevant?)
Lenses that show a focus shift when closing down are not just calibrate-able just like that either. Else lenses like the 50mm f1.2 L would not show that behavior.
(how is this relevant?)
You said, "to determine the correct focal distance". I say, it can not do that. Unless the exact optics properties are known, and they are not.
That focus shifts CAN be a cause for inaccurate focussing is evident, though. They will then show that behavior on different camera bodies, of course. Where it CAN vary, depending on the AF sensor, and used AF point.
(I was not talking about focus shifts)
We already know for instance that on a 5D using the outer points with the 50mm f1.2 can resolve some of the focus shift problems.
(I was not talking about focus shifts)
Again, this is not the explanation for all AF problems.
So this means you think it is the explanation for some AF problems, like FF/BF focus? ;)
It may be an explanation for the FF/BF behavior that is totally CONSISTENT, like WilbaW is reporting with his 50mm f1.8.
 
Your WW2 battleship did not have a 50ft lens, I bet. So... we can not say it was looking at the edge of the lens. Merely at two offset images. And with the battleship, the exact properties were known (with lenses they are not, we do not know the focal length for instance).
It had 2 prisms (or they might have been mirrors) 50ft apart on either side of the gun turret. Makes for very accurate distance finder.
We know that while the 1D series do not have wider eyes, they still see more accurately, apparently (more accurate focus results, and they keep on focussing till f8).
Well, it's better made and has bigger pixels than my lowly T2i. Bigger pixels implies less focus sensitivity. (Not to mention the much more expensive focus system...)
So this means you think it is the explanation for some AF problems, like FF/BF focus? ;)
It may be an explanation for the FF/BF behavior that is totally CONSISTENT, like WilbaW is reporting with his 50mm f1.8.
But when you combine it with Theory 1, then it explains INCONSISTENT focus results, like FF at close distances and BF at far distances. It obviously doesn't help with CONSISTENTLY bad focus with no rhyme or reason.
 
The AF sensor optics use an OOF image to determine focus. In a way, it is looking at what we see as "bokeh" as end product, the widening doubleness we start to see in OOF areas is basically the "left" and "right" image the AF sensor compares (or top and bottom).

Lenses that show a focus shift when closing down are not just calibrate-able just like that either. Else lenses like the 50mm f1.2 L would not show that behavior.

That focus shifts CAN be a cause for inaccurate focussing is evident, though. They will then show that behavior on different camera bodies, of course. Where it CAN vary, depending on the AF sensor, and used AF point.
On reflection, I think my explanation may help with focus shift. Let's suppose the lens is not very good - the effective focal length of "left" and "right" (using your terms, since you don't like my explanation using paths) elements of the lens is 49mm and the center element is 51mm. Wide open, the best focus assumes a focal length of 50mm - it's a bit soft, but that's the lens for you. The lens is calibrated to adjust the 49mm the AF sensor sees to look like a 50mm on the IS. The lens is as sharp as it can be wide open (which is not very). But when stopped down, the image only comes through the center element - a 51mm focal length. The lens back-focuses when stopped down! Hey presto! Focus shift! :)
If you add a 2x TC, non reporting, and that TC has no optical aberrations of its own to confuse things, the optical system is still known as being 50mm... but the actual focal length is 100mm. If you have such a lens, and add a TC, you will see that the lens still is quite consistent in its BF/FF behavior.

Same as with a perfectly focussing lens, by the way... it still will focus well with TC.

My point: The camera does not take the focal length of the lens into account, in AF operation.

The lens however, will still correct itself (conform your idea of lens calibration). How this will impact your idea, I cannot comprehend at 10:20 in the evening ;).

However, we do know that when a TC does report itself, the lens motor movement slows down considerably. This in its own shows that the search for AF is in a loop, a number of steps, no matter how fast some camera/lens combinations can actually achieve focus. That fast speed just means very fast PD evaluation, very fast communication between lens and camera, and very fast lens movements.
 
Your WW2 battleship did not have a 50ft lens, I bet. So... we can not say it was looking at the edge of the lens. Merely at two offset images. And with the battleship, the exact properties were known (with lenses they are not, we do not know the focal length for instance).
It had 2 prisms (or they might have been mirrors) 50ft apart on either side of the gun turret. Makes for very accurate distance finder.
We know that while the 1D series do not have wider eyes, they still see more accurately, apparently (more accurate focus results, and they keep on focussing till f8).
Well, it's better made and has bigger pixels than my lowly T2i. Bigger pixels implies less focus sensitivity. (Not to mention the much more expensive focus system...)
The 20D has EXACTLY the same size of pixels as the 1Ds mk III. So does the 350D, for that matter. Differences in AF accuracy can not be explained by pixel size, obviously.

The expensiveness of the AF system... that is a BIG pointer to that AF does not get achieved by measuring to where the lens has to move.

When we do acknowledge that the AF system in the camera influences the accuracy, the speed of the AF, we do know that it is not a simple matter of measuring distance like on a WOII battle ship and telling the lens to go there.

Else AF speed would be the same, and accuracy would be the same.
So this means you think it is the explanation for some AF problems, like FF/BF focus? ;)
It may be an explanation for the FF/BF behavior that is totally CONSISTENT, like WilbaW is reporting with his 50mm f1.8.
But when you combine it with Theory 1, then it explains INCONSISTENT focus results, like FF at close distances and BF at far distances. It obviously doesn't help with CONSISTENTLY bad focus with no rhyme or reason.
 
If you add a 2x TC, non reporting, and that TC has no optical aberrations of its own to confuse things, the optical system is still known as being 50mm... but the actual focal length is 100mm. If you have such a lens, and add a TC, you will see that the lens still is quite consistent in its BF/FF behavior.

Same as with a perfectly focussing lens, by the way... it still will focus well with TC.
With my argument (both theories), a TC will make no difference - the behavior will be consistent whether the TC is there or not.
My point: The camera does not take the focal length of the lens into account, in AF operation.
I was using the different focal lengths to illustrate the point. I didn't mean to imply these were communicated to the body - that is not necessary for the argument. (I suspect the focal length is generally communicated, although I will defer to higher powers)
 
Well, it's better made and has bigger pixels than my lowly T2i. Bigger pixels implies less focus sensitivity. (Not to mention the much more expensive focus system...)
The 20D has EXACTLY the same size of pixels as the 1Ds mk III. So does the 350D, for that matter. Differences in AF accuracy can not be explained by pixel size, obviously.
But the 1Ds III is still better made (remember those manufacturing tolerances for the AF system?) and has a more expensive AF system than the 20D. Also bigger pixels than the t2i. If you spent that much and it didn't focus better than a 20D, you'd be a bit annoyed... ;)
The expensiveness of the AF system... that is a BIG pointer to that AF does not get achieved by measuring to where the lens has to move.
I don't understand your logic. Spend more to get more accuracy seems reasonable to me. Wilma's tests suggest it can work with a move & confirm (2 flashes). But I'll leave that argument to her.
When we do acknowledge that the AF system in the camera influences the accuracy, the speed of the AF, we do know that it is not a simple matter of measuring distance like on a WOII battle ship and telling the lens to go there.
 
Hi Brightcolours,

The problem I have is that the camera (450D with 18-55is) seems to be able to focus quite accurately with only the briefest flash of light.

Perhaps you can try the following (in a dark room with a torch)...

Put the camera on a tripod looking at a good contrast (i.e. black white) target, at a distance of about 3 foot.

Set aperture wide open (I used 24mm focal length) and turn off the lights.

In Single shot AF mode half press the shutter - The lens AF's back and forward and then stops.

Release half pressed shutter and then turn on the torch - The image is clearly out of focus in the OVF. (i.e the search process always leaves the lens out of focus)

Turn off the torch, Half press shutter - Again the lens AF's back and forward and then stops.

Keeping shutter half pressed, provide a very brief flash of light from the torch onto the target. - The Camera will focus on the target, but not confirm focus. (no beep)

Release half pressed shutter and then turn on lights - The image is clearly in focus through the OVF.

Carefully flick AF switch to MF without disturbing the lens and then take a picture - Image is nice and sharp.

In my previous mail I was 'assuming' that it must calculate this focus position, from a single PD measurement. To me this still seems a reasonable possibility with a 'known' Canon lens.

However - it must somehow be able to work out where the lens focus needs to go to, without constant input from the PD sensors. As the flash of light I produce is much shorter than the total focus time.

The only other possibility I can think of - is that it always does 2 phase measurements very close together in time (perhaps as the AF motors ramp up to full speed) and then crunches out the delta and extrapolates this to a number of AF motor pulses to null the Phase difference??

Regards

Andy.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top