Well I almost finalized until i read dpreview review - D300S

It totally depends on what you do with your camera. I recently had to make the Canon vs Nikon choice all over again. I used to have a D200 and a number of lenses, but everything I own was stolen (and not insured).

Starting fresh, I looked very, very hard at Canon. The one thing I tried not to consider until the very end was the body. SLR bodies come and go, but lens and flash systems are far more important to me.

Canon had a slight advantage in their lens options with their f/4 prosumer range. I like these A LOT. Nikon only have slightly slower lenses with f/5.6 at the long end, or full professional constant 2.8 lenses. But for most of the work I do, the f/5.6 is good enough, and I can buy Tamron and Sigma for the 2.8s.

In the lighting area, Canon fare very badly. Nikon's CLS system is miles ahead of what they're offering.

When I finally came to the bodies, Nikon won again, mainly because of the autofocus on the D300s and the ISO performance. But again, this doesn't really matter because there will be a new body in a decade or so. It's the gear I've bought to work with that body that will be important.

True indeed and that information helps a lot. Thanks Builder.

Builder said:

It totally depends on what you do with your camera. I recently had to make the Canon vs Nikon choice all over again. I used to have a D200 and a number of lenses, but everything I own was stolen (and not insured).

Starting fresh, I looked very, very hard at Canon. The one thing I tried not to consider until the very end was the body. SLR bodies come and go, but lens and flash systems are far more important to me.

Canon had a slight advantage in their lens options with their f/4 prosumer range. I like these A LOT. Nikon only have slightly slower lenses with f/5.6 at the long end, or full professional constant 2.8 lenses. But for most of the work I do, the f/5.6 is good enough, and I can buy Tamron and Sigma for the 2.8s.

In the lighting area, Canon fare very badly. Nikon's CLS system is miles ahead of what they're offering.

When I finally came to the bodies, Nikon won again, mainly because of the autofocus on the D300s and the ISO performance. But again, this doesn't really matter because there will be a new body in a decade or so. It's the gear I've bought to work with that body that will be important.

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Being a Good Human is more important than being Great human.

It's not the technology but the technician that makes the difference with whatever system you use. Having said that I think the entire idea is insane and would be far more costly in the long run.

Nikon moves at it's own pace and eventually they will have a FX 20+megapixel camera for the masses. In the mean time unless you are an artist doing mural sized work for a gallery all those additional pixels are doing is clogging up your harddrive and work flow. 12 MP is more that sufficient for most uses already and the high ISO performance of the D3x/s and D700 has opened up never before avenues to explore in 35mm photography; it wasn't that long ago that we were swapping out film in our F4 and F100 and missing shots but now we have continuous "film" available.

The D300, both versions, are extremely capable for most people and are superb when it comes to ergonomics and handling and being able to personalize the camera to your style of shooting. If you just have the hots for the Canon then by all means buy it and enjoy, but I still see mixing the systems together as madness. I have a hard enough time shooting Nikon FX primary and DX backup so having another "system" would drive me mad. Happy shooting.

Will sure keep those points in mind Mrcontinental

mrcontinental said:

It's not the technology but the technician that makes the difference with whatever system you use. Having said that I think the entire idea is insane and would be far more costly in the long run.

Nikon moves at it's own pace and eventually they will have a FX 20+megapixel camera for the masses. In the mean time unless you are an artist doing mural sized work for a gallery all those additional pixels are doing is clogging up your harddrive and work flow. 12 MP is more that sufficient for most uses already and the high ISO performance of the D3x/s and D700 has opened up never before avenues to explore in 35mm photography; it wasn't that long ago that we were swapping out film in our F4 and F100 and missing shots but now we have continuous "film" available.

The D300, both versions, are extremely capable for most people and are superb when it comes to ergonomics and handling and being able to personalize the camera to your style of shooting. If you just have the hots for the Canon then by all means buy it and enjoy, but I still see mixing the systems together as madness. I have a hard enough time shooting Nikon FX primary and DX backup so having another "system" would drive me mad. Happy shooting.

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Being a Good Human is more important than being Great human.

Don't forget the Nikon CLS system which is second to none. This and the excellent Nikon lenses are all I need to stick with Nikon.

Cameras don't excite me at all - only FX got me excited because it was full frame and truth be told MP is the last thing I'm concerned with as 12MP is more then sufficient for most uses. I've been waiting for the D3 to hit sub-$3000 and I may acquire one to go with my D700 otherwise I will continue to invest in excellent Nikon glass and keep shooting my D200 as a backup. Happy shooting

Well coming back to the technical part, some more stuff i came across on web :

Canon 7D and Nikon D300s are the most advanced cameras released this year (2009). It is quite surprising because in the last two years, Canon and Nikon never release cameras in the same class (similar in feature and price). Canon usually takes a price leader position and Nikon takes top performance position. But now, it has changed. Canon has announced EOS 7D, which is definitely a big step up from Canon 50D.

Sensor size and Image resolution

Nikon D300s has a slightly bigger sensor size but lower image resolution (only 12 megapixel), while Canon 7D has record breaking 18 megapixel. thanks to Canon new gapless microlens technology, the image quality in high ISO setting is still as good as Canon 50D which has lower image resolution (15 mp). On the other hand, Nikon feels that 12 megapixel are good enough for most professionals or amateurs and decided to keep the megapixel on 12 mp so that the camera is better in controlling noise in high ISO.

In practice, especially for sports photographers who frequently crop images, 18 mp is much better than 12 mp on Nikon D300s. The downside is when you shoot in low light condition such as evening or indoor sports. Nikon D300s might produce cleaner images.

LIGHTS_n_SHADOWS said:

LIGHTS_n_SHADOWS said:

LIGHTS_n_SHADOWS said:

Well that makes sense. Having a 18mp image with full of noise and a sharp 12 mp with less noise is alomost the same

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again this confused me a little :

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Based on DXomark lab test, Nikon D300s is slightly better in color depth and dynamic range, but Canon 7D suprisingly slightly better in noise handling despite the 18 megapixel.

Auto Focus

Both camera has advanced auto focus system. Canon 7D has 19 points AF points, all of them are cross type sensor which is more sensitive and accurate. 7D also has several AF mode such as single, zone, spot. I think zone AF will be very useful on many occasions. While Nikon has 51 AF points with selection of single points, 11 points or 51 points.

Movie recording feature

Canon offers HD video recording with manual exposure control with optional external stereo microphone. Nikon D300s offers the same without manual exposure control. Canon offers full HD 1080p while Nikon D300s only offers standard HD 720p. So, it is a clear win for Canon. But, movie recording in DSLR cameras are not perfect. For casual movie recorder, camcorder are still more practical to use.

Some similarities

Despite the differences, both cameras actually has many similarities. These features differentiate them with lower class digital SLR cameras. They are:

100% viewfinder coverage
Magnesium alloy body
ISO range from 100-6400 and 12800 (expanded)
Shutter durability 150,000
Virtual Horizon

Conclusion

Both cameras are an excellent cameras for sports photography or wildlife. These cameras are quite heavy and bulky so it might not a great camera for travel.

Canon 7D has some clear advantages over Nikon D300s in some areas such as higher image resolution, faster continuous shooting without having to mount a battery grip, and better movie recording with full control of exposure.

While Nikon D300s has half to one stop cleaner image in high ISO setting, better body design and some features you might appreciate such as double cards slot and quick release mode.

Any of this powerhouse will get the job well done. To make decision which camera to buy is not very easy, but here is some tips:

If you have lenses collection of either brand, stick with the brand.
Get Canon 7D if you are shooting in bright light most of the time.
Get Canon 7D if you like to crop pictures a lot
Get Canon 7D if you will often use this camera to record creative movie

LIGHTS_n_SHADOWS said:

LIGHTS_n_SHADOWS said:

LIGHTS_n_SHADOWS said:

Well well well....this simple review makes lots of sense to decide on D300S, I mean for me atleast, where I have Nikon lenses and shoot low light mostly, Video is not a big deal as I already have a full HD video camera. Moreover, i had trouble framing and composing shots with 5 focus points, where I had to use the focus lock a lot. Now this 51 point focus is a clear win, which will help me to frame my shots more accurately.Here I come D300S...

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Being a Good Human is more important than being Great human.

LIGHTS_n_SHADOWS said:

While Nikon D300s has half to one stop cleaner image in high ISO setting,

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That is to be questioned, the test on this site shows the D300s the be one stop cleaner but one stop bereft of detail as well - the 7D has more resolution and as a matter of fact less noise at all ISO settings than the D300s and does this at 14 Bit colour resolution throughout - at which the D300s looses out badly because it can only do this by dropping its framerate to 2.5 fps.

LIGHTS_n_SHADOWS said:

better body design

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That's to be debated and highly subjective - I have tried the D300 and found the brick to be unwieldy - much like a lump hammer but not a photographic tool. Some things are quite badly designed - like the live view integration which is far worse than the Canon design which allows the use of live view as a valid and improved replacement for mirror lockup.

LIGHTS_n_SHADOWS said:

If you have lenses collection of either brand, stick with the brand.

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If you have good lenses this is the way things are. I wouldn't fret buying a D300s if I had good Nikon lens collection. Lenses would be my main reason to switch today if I initially had bought Nikon (or Fuji) which I was contemplating years ago...
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regards
Karl Günter Wünsch

There has to be a D400 within now and say 6 months.

It will have more Mp, and it will introduce better micro lenses and circuits too. That gave the D3s its amazing high iso performance.

However, I do not think you get your 18 Mp. I think you will see something like 14 or 15 Mp, with a high iso noise profile similar to the current Pentax K-X. Meaning better performance at high iso, moving it into the max 12800 range, but only similar or a bit better at low iso.

Beware of the fact that the 7d does produce a bit more noise at lower iso levels than the d300s(acording to DxO, though it's probably hard to see the difference particularly when printed).

lock

Once you get to the pro-sumer level all of the offerings from Nikon and Canon are about the same quality wise and it comes down to personal preference and how it works for you. I read the reviews and forums but ultimately buy and try what appeals to me and makes me happy. I don't let critics tell me which movies to watch and like wise with photographic equipment.

I shoot Nikon because it pleases me to do so. I find their designs of all of their pro-sumer offerings to be top notch and pleasing on both a functional and visual level, I find my D700 to be a work of art as well as an engineering marvel - and the D3 series is magnificent. And all of the Nikon pro glass looks gorgeous and feels incredible in your hands and just works, even with all of the bellyaching on the forums about sharpness while shooting test charts, in practical application they have always performed. BLUF buy what pleases you a get at it and ignore anyone telling you that Nikon is superior to Canon and vice versa because it's rubbish. They are both first rate companies who make first rate equipment. Ping/Callaway, Rolex/Omega, Mercedes/BMW, Nike/Adidas, Lauren/Hilfiger, the list goes on and on but the fact is if they made bad products they would be out of business. In the end YOU are the difference maker. Happy shooting

How about D90 replacement 14mp and D300 replacement 16mp
david

LIGHTS_n_SHADOWS said:

Auto Focus

Both camera has advanced auto focus system. Canon 7D has 19 points AF points, all of them are cross type sensor which is more sensitive and accurate. 7D also has several AF mode such as single, zone, spot. I think zone AF will be very useful on many occasions. While Nikon has 51 AF points with selection of single points, 11 points or 51 points.

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I find it interesting that few people have remarked on the AF mode difference if one actually exists as I interprete it. What I miss in the D300 is the ability to nominate a cluster of sensors to make a focus determination rather than only being able to pick one out the the arrray of 51. I would like to select a cluster of say five from the array of 51 and choose "average range" or "nearest" so that I am not hampered by my inability to keep the single sensor locked onto the same part of my target. The issue is the camera operator's difficulty/shortcomings in sports action photography where there isn't a single target occupying a large portion of the frame. The intent would be to have a moving cluster of say five sensors which could track the target once acquired across the full 51 sensor array. BTW, I am unsure what Canon means by "single, zone and spot" and whether Canon approaches this focus functionality in some way or not.

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Marabou Muddler
http://MMuddler.smugmug.com/Sports

MMuddler said:

I would like to select a cluster of say five from the array of 51 and choose "average range" or "nearest" so that I am not hampered by my inability to keep the single sensor locked onto the same part of my target. The issue is the camera operator's difficulty/shortcomings in sports action photography where there isn't a single target occupying a large portion of the frame. The intent would be to have a moving cluster of say five sensors which could track the target once acquired across the full 51 sensor array.

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The 7D in free focus point selection will do pretty much what you expect, it will pass on the subject from focus point to focus point and with the correct setting (AF speed is the term coined in the menu for this) you can prevent the switchover to another subject.

MMuddler said:

BTW, I am unsure what Canon means by "single, zone and spot" and whether Canon approaches this focus functionality in some way or not.

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In single AF point mode you choose a single point to focus with, that point will be kept static and you have to keep it on your subject. Spot AF point mode reduces the active area of the sensor cell selected (without spot AF mode the active areas of adjacent cells will almost touch) to about 1/3rd of the normal extension. Zone AF allows to choose a group of AF points (out of which the camera can select freely to follow the subject), those zones consist of either the center 9 or the top/left/right/bottom 4 AF points. There is the AF point with extension mode which consists of a center AF point (which is freely user selectable from any of the available points) extended by the 4 vertically and horizontally adjacent cells (if they exist)... The latter could well be close to the one you'd like to have.
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regards
Karl Günter Wünsch

Then you will get the 16 Mp version, with improved hardware/software balance compared to anything else out there (like with the 24 Mp FF sensor).

But it would not surprise me if they would come up with something from Nikon themselves. Like one that is more conservative in Mp So 13 or 14 may be it, but IQ will be superb, best high iso performance, and the camera will be fast. Or a mulitfunctional animal with 18 mp aps-c sensor, similar high iso capacity as the 7D, with the option to up the crop factor to 2 on about 10 Mp (like the tric in the D3s to go to a 1.2 crop factor). All of a sudden you have a 140-400 VRII with constant F2.8 in your hands....

lock

Better to wait little more patiently i guess.....
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Being a Good Human is more important than being Great human.

We'll see it soon at the Photokina.

lock

Karl Gnter Wnsch said:

MMuddler said:

I would like to select a cluster of say five from the array of 51 and choose "average range" or "nearest" so that I am not hampered by my inability to keep the single sensor locked onto the same part of my target. The issue is the camera operator's difficulty/shortcomings in sports action photography where there isn't a single target occupying a large portion of the frame. The intent would be to have a moving cluster of say five sensors which could track the target once acquired across the full 51 sensor array.

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The 7D in free focus point selection will do pretty much what you expect, it will pass on the subject from focus point to focus point and with the correct setting (AF speed is the term coined in the menu for this) you can prevent the switchover to another subject.

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Thanks Karl, The D300 will also track a target once acquired by passing the single active sensor on to other individual sensors.... and there is a control that adjusts the persistence of the lock-on (ablity to hold onto an acquired target that moves around laterally in the frame) vs allowing the sensor to readjust to a different range reading ( e.g. avoiding jumping to background or intervening objects in the site path of the active/tracking sensor). BTW, I've often wondered if the function is simply to add/substract responsiveness to range differences or whether it also works to impede or strengthen the ability of the lateral tracking ( i.e. the sensor to sensor hand-off).

Anyways, my point is that the functionality that I'm looking for is to expand the single tracking sensor (in a field of 50 other viable sensors which can pick up the acquired target) to a cluster of tracking sensors (which can also be shifted over to other available sensors as the target moves within the frame), AND have the range measurement be calculated from a type of composite measurement from all (5) sensors in the tracking cluster.

Various compositing calculations could be programmed: average of 5, closest three, furthest two, average of 4 excluding 1 extreme etc etc

Karl Gnter Wnsch said:

Karl Gnter Wnsch said:

BTW, I am unsure what Canon means by "single, zone and spot" and whether Canon approaches this focus functionality in some way or not.

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In single AF point mode you choose a single point to focus with, that point will be kept static and you have to keep it on your subject. Spot AF point mode reduces the active area of the sensor cell selected (without spot AF mode the active areas of adjacent cells will almost touch) to about 1/3rd of the normal extension. Zone AF allows to choose a group of AF points (out of which the camera can select freely to follow the subject), those zones consist of either the center 9 or the top/left/right/bottom 4 AF points.

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This sounds like you are still only tracking the subject with one point and limiting the set of points which can pick up the target initially OR you are limiting the zone in which the target can be picked up by other sensors upon "hand-off".

Karl Gnter Wnsch said:

There is the AF point with extension mode which consists of a center AF point (which is freely user selectable from any of the available points) extended by the 4 vertically and horizontally adjacent cells (if they exist)... The latter could well be close to the one you'd like to have.

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This sounds interesting Does the extended 5 by 5 cross shaped array act as one sensor by averaging the output of the 9 sensors? and when the target moves laterally within the frame, does the cross move with it?

Appreciate any insight you can provide as I undoubtedly would not be able to figure that out even with a 7D manual in hand.

Karl Gnter Wnsch said:

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regards
Karl Günter Wünsch

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THANKS!
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Marabou Muddler
http://MMuddler.smugmug.com/Sports

MMuddler said:

This sounds like you are still only tracking the subject with one point and limiting the set of points which can pick up the target initially OR you are limiting the zone in which the target can be picked up by other sensors upon "hand-off".

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You are not tracking with a single point, you are tracking with any combination of points within that zone. Initial pickup is by distance (the closest subject to the camera wins) and then handoff is free within the zone...

MMuddler said:

This sounds interesting Does the extended 5 by 5 cross shaped array act as one sensor by averaging the output of the 9 sensors?

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My explanation might have been a bit off, it's a 3x3 cross, not a 5x5 cross.

MMuddler said:

and when the target moves laterally within the frame, does the cross move with it?

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Nope, it's up to you to keep the subject under any of the AF sensors making up the cross - but that's quite a lot easier than keeping a single AF point trained on a contrasty part of the subject.
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regards
Karl Günter Wünsch

when is photokina this year?
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Being a Good Human is more important than being Great human.