GXR A12 28mm poll

Hi,

sorry in advance for the following if you don't like this sort of thing, not sure I do either!

News that Ricoh are bringing out an APS-C 28e module is great, personally it's the one I'd been hoping for. If it were available today I'd it buy now. But winter 2010! By then there will be at least 5 other new cameras that for me will overlap enough for what I need.

Sony have their NEX concept, Nikon and Canon will offer something along the lines of a smaller than m43 ILC or larger sensor P&S, probably announced at Photokina in September with rumors over the summer. Pany will release their GH2 before photokina (I'm not a fan of the IQ from any of the m43s to date but the GH2 will have a new sensor which will improve things). Then there's the Samsung NX and Pentax might bring out their version of this too.

I'm not saying that these cameras are all equivalent, but there is enough overlap that I might trade IQ for versatility, or compactness for video, etc, so that by winter I will have settled for a different system. Basically I'm just impatient!

Sooooo, I thought I'd put up this poll on my web site to see if Ricoh needed to look at their priorities over the coming months. I don't the expect the poll to change anything, I wouldn't want Ricoh to rush any implementation, probably by now R&D has fixed timelines, but you never know

Here's the question, and then the link to the poll

Which statement best matches your buying intentions concerning the Ricoh GXR A12 28mm?

http://earthrisephotography.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/ricoh-gxr-a12-28e-poll/

Thanks for you time
cheers
Al

=)
--
My Ricoh GXR samples:
http://ricoh-gxr.blogspot.com/

Both suggested statements aren't close to how I see this:

‎#3 - "I have no interest in a 28mm (equiv) fixed focal length lens, so the new A12 unit doesn't change my view of the GXR one way or another."

Prog.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oren_b

Prognathous said:

‎#3 - "I have no interest in a 28mm (equiv) fixed focal length lens, so the new A12 unit doesn't change my view of the GXR one way or another."

Click to expand...

Yep, makes sense to have that option, added now

A fourth option... There are many great compact, large sensor cameras available today. The GXR is not my only camera, and I'll wait for the 28mm A12 because I have to. But would love to have it sooner. A year is a long time. Clearly it was not in Ricoh's radar.

andrewteee said:

There are many great compact, large sensor cameras available today.

Click to expand...

This comment has been posted a lot recently and has caused a great deal of debate, but it only confuses me.

I glad your planet has "many great compact, large sensor cameras available today". On my planet I can count ZERO.

If as a reference we take:

µ4/3 to be the smallest sensor - to consider as large sensor.
Fit nicely within a medium coat pocket - to be considered compact.
Save files in sensor raw format - to extract best DR and Detail.
Full PASM modes - to be considered creative/enthusiast relevant.

Then (for me, and possibly only me, but none-the-less for me):

GRD III, LX3, D-Lux4, G11 - FAIL: Sensor too small.
G1, GH1, GF1, EP1, EP2 - FAIL: Body too large.
DP1/2: PASS
X1: PASS

So only two from 11 cameras get passed the first cut.

But both of these are fixed focal length, non interchangeable lens, and have serious operational quirks. They were also both launched with very specialist price tags. And while I try not to let cost get in the way of photo enjoyment, I do need to feel I'm getting value in at least some aspect of the purchase.

So once other important considerations are factored in DPx (unsupported raw in my workflow), X1 (unusable MF in addition to slow AF), the list now drops to 0 from 11.

I can make none of these a preferred choice for a pocketable carry anywhere large sensor compact.

If we take the the two recently announced but not widely available models:
NX: PASS

EPL1: Borderline - still a touch large. Better in 1 dimension, but still bulky in two. And with multi-level menus to navigate for the creative shooting modes, it becomes a FAIL anyway.

So there may be 1 camera, the Samsung, but it's sill too early to say with that. I already have two issues with it at the moment. 1 - They use their own raw format which is not supported by many converter workflows, including mine. A conversion to DNG may be possible so this may not be a show-stopper. 2 - The samples here on DPR taken with the available pancake (which is needed to be a pocketable compact) shows little if any sign of life. I'l be scrutinising other samples as I find them and investigating the raw, so the Jury is still out on that, but not looking favourable due to the pancake.

Finally we come to the GXR.

Put an S10 module on and it's a pocketable compact, but not with a large sensor, so FAIL.

Put an A12 module on and it gets the large sensor and a great lens, but on the size issue it becomes a marginal FAIL. T3 magazine say they carry it in two pockets, one for the body and one for the A12. This perhaps qualifies it as a PASS, but I'm not sure about dedicating two pockets, so it is still FAIL.

In the future, the A12(?) 28mm module may turn this into a resounding PASS, but by then there will be others in the list and the bar may have been raised.

My current carry everywhere in a pocket is the D-Lux 4. And it is the convenience of this I am looking for but with better detail and creative options available with a larger sensor. It this that is driving my quest for a "great compact, large sensor camera", but so far the availability of such a beast is ZERO. At least in my universe.

I want something new for Spring, so it looks like it will still involve a compromise somewhere along the line. At the moment the new DP1x or the X1 are at the top of the short list. But I'm a little wary of that Foveon sensor in some conditions and it may not be available in time. The DP1s is being price discounted so it could be that or the X1.

-Najinsky

I agree with all of the previous comments (except my current carry anywhere cams are either a GDRII or a GR1s)

I'm surprised that the 28mm A12 unit was not the first to show as a pocketable GXR would have had me bankrupt by now!

Riprap said:

I agree with all of the previous comments (except my current carry anywhere cams are either a GDRII or a GR1s)

I'm surprised that the 28mm A12 unit was not the first to show as a pocketable GXR would have had me bankrupt by now!

Click to expand...

Many people in this forum were asking specifically for a 50mm prime version of the GRD over the the past few years as they did not want 28mm. 28mm was putting them off the camera. So they got the GXR with 50mm. I was not surprised that Ricoh didn't produce 28mm first.

Strange how you can have 20 private conversations with people that can help to clarify your own opinion, only to find those people have no balls when it comes to actually expressing that opinion in public.

LOL. Imagine having an opinion you are too scared to put forward in case it's wrong.

iaredatsun said:

Many people in this forum were asking specifically for a 50mm prime version of the GRD over the the past few years as they did not want 28mm. 28mm was putting them off the camera. So they got the GXR with 50mm. I was not surprised that Ricoh didn't produce 28mm first.

Click to expand...

I think that's a fair point. Providing the 28mm first would have given existing GRD customers little incentive to get the GXR as well, so perhaps there's a lot of sense in that approach. It's just a shame that it's unlikely I'll be carrying a large sensor Ricoh around this spring. Although I haven't fully discarded the GXR as an option because I'm loving so much about what I'm seeing from the A12 50mm (optically great, but the red channel needs work on a lot of the images I see - but that could just be the workflow of those posting colour samples). My mind keeps trying to figure out ways to get over the carrying around issue the A12 50mm presents. But time's running out, springs-a-commin' !

-Najinsky

It's all about shutter noise. All of these new mirror-less cameras can be replaced with a cheaper smaller DSLRs (like Oly E-410). GXR is the only large sensor option for unobtrusive genre photography.

28mm module should have a faster focusing because it's not a macro lens. They made their 50mm a macro for the Japanese market – they are really into macro photography over there.

They need to add another 50mm prime to their GXR line but a faster non-macro version.

Agree with you on that

Simon

I just hope they don't make any portrait lens macro as well!

Great summary cannot fault it. Have the Samsung NX10 - great fun camera but I agree with "yet another raw format".

NX100 - presumably a smaller format camera just over the horizon. Use dng and we might have it made?

Btw I have found Samsung's 30mm f2.0 a nice lens.

--
Tom Caldwell
I am always trying ...

iaredatsun said:

Riprap said:

I agree with all of the previous comments (except my current carry anywhere cams are either a GDRII or a GR1s)

I'm surprised that the 28mm A12 unit was not the first to show as a pocketable GXR would have had me bankrupt by now!

Click to expand...

Many people in this forum were asking specifically for a 50mm prime version of the GRD over the the past few years as they did not want 28mm. 28mm was putting them off the camera. So they got the GXR with 50mm. I was not surprised that Ricoh didn't produce 28mm first.

Click to expand...

I also agree and a A12 right off the blocks would have been a low volley against the still recently released GRDIII and given Ricoh to cameras with similar purpose to confuse their own market. I realise that the A12 will have a larger sensor.

--
Tom Caldwell
I am always trying ...

Najinsky said:

Strange how you can have 20 private conversations with people that can help to clarify your own opinion, only to find those people have no balls when it comes to actually expressing that opinion in public.

LOL. Imagine having an opinion you are too scared to put forward in case it's wrong.

Click to expand...

I have already said enough about the GXR for everyone to know my opinion and have skirted around being an active Troll merely because I think I have the goodwill of the forum and others know that am a Ricoh lover atbheart and merely disappointed that Rivoh do not seem to be getting wide distribution of the GXR. I have not seen a module for the GXR that has had my blood cells coursing but I want Ricoh to sell sufficient quantities of the GXR back to make it worth their while to produce more modules. From the alacrity (or lack of it) that new modules are arriving I can guess that demand for add on modules is ever so slow. This would simply be because that there is not a big enough base of GXR backs out there in consumer-world and no reflection on the camera itself. So the company is stuck in catch 22 as unless they can launch enough modules to interest a wide range of users then they will struggle to get enough GXR backs into the marketplace to do this very thing.

If they had to start with a 50mm lens then why did they opt for f2.5? This is a fairly fast lens but not utterly exceptional. If they had issued a f2.0 or better an f1.8 then eyes wide open they would have thrown all their prospective market users against the wall with their credit cards dribbling out of their hands.

Sure it would be a larger lens but with the GXR format they had already lost pocketability and belt-wearable - so the challenge was to make a show-stopper small camera.

Instead they made a nice but fairly average camera combination at a goodly price.

I already have a f1.2 50mm it is not a macro but nevertheless why in tarnation would I want to buy an expensive mid-size camera to get a fairly average speed 50mm with macro capability? That is where I personally come from.

Ricoh made their name by making digital cameras that were something special. If they keep on trying to win the popular market by selling good but uninspiring modules for the industry leading GXR back then they are barking up the wrong gum tree as far as I am concerned - let's live a little and have a something extraordinary sensor module to go with the GXR and make my eyes pop. I would love to be seduced.

Meanwhile I have consoled myself by buying a Pentax 135mm f2.5 pk mount for US$60 plus freight. Good for some fun and it will fit nicely on my NX10 and be usable as I have found with my other pk mount legacy lenses. I need not add that this is f2.5 on a 135mm lens and not on a 50mm lens. Not as good as my Canon f2.0 135mm but pretty good nonetheless and at US$75 I can sacrifice the ".5" (smile) and the new box.

I already have the nice Pentax 24mm f2.8 macro in pk mount and it is a great little lens even after spending probably 25 years in the attic works fine on my NX adapter.

Sure beats waiting for the equivalent module "whenever" from Ricoh.

So whereas I love what Ricoh makes they are not singing any songs that are charming my heart and I doubt if I am alone.

So my plea is for Ricoh to start putting some state of the art modules out because with their pricing they are not going to get market by selling "merely good" modules.

--
Tom Caldwell
I am always trying ...

maybe you need to test before talk, my GH1 its a superior camera compared to my nex in every aspect...

NEX: sensor produce flat image (also if processed in raw) compared to GH1 and other m43 cameras...(they are never razor sharp like a camera with low AA filter can produce...i think GH1 or other camera without AA Filter )

User interface: GH1 has all button at righ place

lens: the biggest problem, the 2 lens are very mediocre, all m43 lens are better (yesterday i tested panasonic 14-45mm 14-140mm 20mm F1.7 vs 16mm 2.8 and 18-55mm )

also the 14-45mm is much superior to the prime 16mm sharper and edge to edge... (also the 18-55mm is very soft in the corners)

practically the 2 sony lens produce sharp images only in the centre, if youuse the 2/3 composition rule your subject will be in the "blurred part"

i cant imagine how the new GH2 with new sensor will perform (rumors talk about a shutter less camera)

btw the problem of the NEX are the lens...(and maybe also the sensor..too flat for who used to use sensor with low AA filters)

AHPhotos said:

Sony have their NEX concept, Nikon and Canon will offer something along the lines of a smaller than m43 ILC or larger sensor P&S, probably announced at Photokina in September with rumors over the summer. Pany will release their GH2 before photokina (I'm not a fan of the IQ from any of the m43s to date but the GH2 will have a new sensor which will improve things). Then there's the Samsung NX and Pentax might bring out their version of this too.

Click to expand...

--
angel

nosenseofplace said:

maybe you need to test before talk

Click to expand...

I wish I could have! But the original post was posted back in February before any of the new cameras were announced. And the only m43 images I've seen and liked to date are those taken with Leica lenses. As it stands now, for me, a Ricoh A12 28mm will still be a strong contender for purchase after September.

Tom,
I agree with most of what you said abut the GXR.

Myself, the GXR is on a short list of cameras I am considering for a fall purchase.

Another camera on my short list is the NX 10. I see you are using Pentax lens with your NX10. I was wondering how they perform? Are you using the Samsung adapter?The reason I am asking is that Pentax is currently my DSLR camera of choice so I have several Pentax lens that could be used with the NX10.
After September I will know what direction I plan on going or staying.
Thanks.
GR

Tom Caldwell said:

Najinsky said:

Strange how you can have 20 private conversations with people that can help to clarify your own opinion, only to find those people have no balls when it comes to actually expressing that opinion in public.

LOL. Imagine having an opinion you are too scared to put forward in case it's wrong.

Click to expand...

I have already said enough about the GXR for everyone to know my opinion and have skirted around being an active Troll merely because I think I have the goodwill of the forum and others know that am a Ricoh lover atbheart and merely disappointed that Rivoh do not seem to be getting wide distribution of the GXR. I have not seen a module for the GXR that has had my blood cells coursing but I want Ricoh to sell sufficient quantities of the GXR back to make it worth their while to produce more modules. From the alacrity (or lack of it) that new modules are arriving I can guess that demand for add on modules is ever so slow. This would simply be because that there is not a big enough base of GXR backs out there in consumer-world and no reflection on the camera itself. So the company is stuck in catch 22 as unless they can launch enough modules to interest a wide range of users then they will struggle to get enough GXR backs into the marketplace to do this very thing.

If they had to start with a 50mm lens then why did they opt for f2.5? This is a fairly fast lens but not utterly exceptional. If they had issued a f2.0 or better an f1.8 then eyes wide open they would have thrown all their prospective market users against the wall with their credit cards dribbling out of their hands.

Sure it would be a larger lens but with the GXR format they had already lost pocketability and belt-wearable - so the challenge was to make a show-stopper small camera.

Instead they made a nice but fairly average camera combination at a goodly price.

I already have a f1.2 50mm it is not a macro but nevertheless why in tarnation would I want to buy an expensive mid-size camera to get a fairly average speed 50mm with macro capability? That is where I personally come from.

Ricoh made their name by making digital cameras that were something special. If they keep on trying to win the popular market by selling good but uninspiring modules for the industry leading GXR back then they are barking up the wrong gum tree as far as I am concerned - let's live a little and have a something extraordinary sensor module to go with the GXR and make my eyes pop. I would love to be seduced.

Meanwhile I have consoled myself by buying a Pentax 135mm f2.5 pk mount for US$60 plus freight. Good for some fun and it will fit nicely on my NX10 and be usable as I have found with my other pk mount legacy lenses. I need not add that this is f2.5 on a 135mm lens and not on a 50mm lens. Not as good as my Canon f2.0 135mm but pretty good nonetheless and at US$75 I can sacrifice the ".5" (smile) and the new box.

I already have the nice Pentax 24mm f2.8 macro in pk mount and it is a great little lens even after spending probably 25 years in the attic works fine on my NX adapter.

Sure beats waiting for the equivalent module "whenever" from Ricoh.

So whereas I love what Ricoh makes they are not singing any songs that are charming my heart and I doubt if I am alone.

So my plea is for Ricoh to start putting some state of the art modules out because with their pricing they are not going to get market by selling "merely good" modules.

--
Tom Caldwell
I am always trying ...

Click to expand...

--
grcolts
http://web.me.com/grcolts/Site/About_Me.html

yes my mistake, after i wrote i have seen that you wrote in february

regarding 28mm...i will be surprised if avalaible after photokina...
--
angel