Played a bit with the F300EXR samples from Fuji

I resized them to the M mode size, 2816x2112 using Irfan View.

All but the hair one look very nice. The hair still looks a bit bad, but I am hoping that using the SN mode the camera will apply less NR and it would look better.

I remember that someone posted some F200EXR shots, one in the 12MP mode resized to 6MP and one in the native 6MP mode. The native one had higher detail, probably because of less NR.

Based on the resized Fuji samples, I think this is the best pocket superzoom camera out there. The Canon SX210 has horrible CA, very soft in the corners, and starts at 28mm. The detail is probably equivalent with the F300EXR in 6MP mode, if not less.

The Samsung superzoom starts at 24mm, but it's 'only' 14x zoom, and the images are pretty soft as well. I would guess the detail is not better than the F300EXR in 6MP mode.

So I really don't understand why the Fuji fans are so disappointed. It looks like a really great camera. Just a few years ago, a pocket 15x zoom starting at 24mm was thought to be impossible. I am really looking forward to buy it when it comes out.

Yeah, if you rebadge this cam with the name 'Canon', I'm sure DPR will give it a gold award.

--
Proud owner of F10, my only camera
F6900Z retired

That, and if Fuji would rebrand it as a 6MP camera. Sigma doesn't claim 14MP images with their DP cameras, and they are twice as expensive as the F300EXR (and no zoom, not as wide, etc.). Fuji should grow some balls too.

The F300 is fine for a zoom P&S. If you want DSLR like images then by a chunky DSLR

I suspect camera manufacturers are designing high-res now so it looks good printed or downsampled. What seems like noise or EXR artifacts in the fishing gear seems to increase apparent sharpness in the resized image.

Can anybody point to really good hair in a P&S image? Maybe the Panasonic provided models in DPreview's LX5 samples? No, possibly worse.

CAcreeks said:

I suspect camera manufacturers are designing high-res now so it looks good printed or downsampled. What seems like noise or EXR artifacts in the fishing gear seems to increase apparent sharpness in the resized image.

Click to expand...

I think the reason for the softness and EXR artifacts is because of the EXR sensor layout. It can not produce good, sharp images when every pixel is used independently, there is just too much interpolation going on. But once you reduce the image size, then you simulate the pixel binned mods, which work pretty well, and due to the relatively low density compared to other P&S, you get better, sharper images.

That's not to say that some camera makers aren't cheating like that, sacrificing 100% detail for a nice look when viewed at screen sizes. That's why they use so much sharpening.

CAcreeks said:

Can anybody point to really good hair in a P&S image? Maybe the Panasonic provided models in DPreview's LX5 samples? No, possibly worse.

Click to expand...

I don't take pictures of people, but my SD980 can reproduce fur pretty well at base ISO, close range. When I get my F300EXR, I will run some tests.

CAcreeks said:

Can anybody point to really good hair in a P&S image? Maybe the Panasonic provided models in DPreview's LX5 samples? No, possibly worse.

Click to expand...

The Canon G11 image here isn't bad:



--
john carson

but u shall not forget that g11 is 2x more expensive than many p&s... it's close to entry level dslr too

if u r able to buy 1 like f200exr for 2x less expensive and produce the same quality, y not? money hard to earn nowadays

--
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
http://letkeman.net/Photos

learning_photography said:

but u shall not forget that g11 is 2x more expensive than many p&s... it's close to entry level dslr too

if u r able to buy 1 like f200exr for 2x less expensive and produce the same quality, y not? money hard to earn nowadays

Click to expand...

Sure, but I was responding to a person who asked about P&S cameras, not about P&S cameras that cost the same.

--
john carson

if it has raw and LR3/DXO supports it. Fuji cams has amazing raws! A pocket 24mm 15X with raw, woot!
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25457298@N04/sets/

Eigenmeat said:

if it has raw and LR3/DXO supports it. Fuji cams has amazing raws! A pocket 24mm 15X with raw, woot!

Click to expand...

Raw is nice, but it would be even nicer to be able to adjust the JPG engine settings, like the sharpening level (including disabling it), lens correction on/off (if any is done), and NR on/off.

Sometimes the camera can do a better job At non wide angles, my SD980 gets JPGs as good or even better than what I can do in Raw Therapee, and it is far more convenient.

CAcreeks said:

Can anybody point to really good hair in a P&S image? Maybe the Panasonic provided models in DPreview's LX5 samples? No, possibly worse.

Click to expand...

Once upon a time there was a 6mp Fuji P&S that could produce amazing results. Fuji, in their infinite wisdom, decided to spend the next 4 years pratting around and dilly-dallying with more mps and extra features, gimmicks and other stupid functions, even at the expense of their original superb IQ. Finally, in year 2009-10, Fuji came up with their new 12mp marvels that need to operate at 6mp to produce results that are close to their old models. It does not matter to them (Fuji) if their users lost out in IQ and are now getting mottled hair, artifacts, mushy grass or less detail. What matters is the sticker on the box...

ie MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING

Below is an image taken with the old marvel. You draw your own conclusions.
Ah!, by the way, note the iso. 1600 , nonetheless!

Let's see what the next 4 Fuji years bring to the disillusioned users (?)

Will they match the 4 year old models? They may do but we'll be talking about 8 yo models then, if they do... What a waste!...



--
Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours...

Fuji F30, F31, S6500, OLY C4000Z, Canon Film EOS,
Nikon D60, 18-55VR, 18-105VR, 55-200VR, 35/1.8G, 50/1.8D, SB-400

Sunshine_boy said:

Once upon a time there was a 6mp Fuji P&S that could produce amazing results. Fuji, in their infinite wisdom, decided to spend the next 4 years pratting around and dilly-dallying with more mps and extra features, gimmicks and other stupid functions, even at the expense of their original superb IQ.

Click to expand...

I think the EXR is not a gimmick, I am pretty sure the F30 or any other P&S can get such a DR.

Sunshine_boy said:

Finally, in year 2009-10, Fuji came up with their new 12mp marvels that need to operate at 6mp to produce results that are close to their old models. It does not matter to them (Fuji) if their users lost out in IQ and are now getting mottled hair, artifacts, mushy grass or less detail. What matters is the sticker on the box...

Click to expand...

You can't have a compact camera using the F30/6000fd sensor. I had a 6000fd camera, and it only had a 10.3x zoom, from 28 to 300mm, and it was as big as a DSLR. And it had no IS, bad purple fringing, terrible long exposure noise at night.

So if the IQ of this camera is close to the older ones, but with a much better zoom, size and lens, then I am all for it. I would sacrifice a bit of IQ for the much more expanded versatility.

Regarding your sample, it is an unfair comparison. The hair in your shot takes a larger part of the photo, and the image has been sized down a lot. It looks pretty good for ISO 1600, but my experience with the S6000fd at high ISO is very disappointing. Look at this 2 seconds ISO 1600 exposure: http://www.flickr.com/photos/radu_privantu/1319018208/sizes/o/in/photostream/
It looks like an impressionist painting.

Radu P said:

CAcreeks said:

I suspect camera manufacturers are designing high-res now so it looks good printed or downsampled. What seems like noise or EXR artifacts in the fishing gear seems to increase apparent sharpness in the resized image.

Click to expand...

I think the reason for the softness and EXR artifacts is because of the EXR sensor layout. It can not produce good, sharp images when every pixel is used independently, there is just too much interpolation going on. But once you reduce the image size, then you simulate the pixel binned mods, which work pretty well, and due to the relatively low density compared to other P&S, you get better, sharper images.

That's not to say that some camera makers aren't cheating like that, sacrificing 100% detail for a nice look when viewed at screen sizes. That's why they use so much sharpening.

Click to expand...

I am genuinely curious as why you feel 'sacrificing 100% detail for a nice look when viewed at screen sizes' is ' cheating '.

I would have thought improving IQ at the viewing sizes that 99%% of users select was a sensible step and one that most would welcome . There is so much more to IQ - tonal range, colour gradient, clarity, dynamics - than how each pixel is sculptured, and that's before we consider the overriding importance of composition/subject matter/lighting etc.

By all means have fun comparing images at whatever size (and I will view them with a degree of interest, thank you) but please let's not get fixated with pixel addiction at this price point in the market. It's a cheap 15x zoom compact.

When you receive your F300 my initial interest will be whether that pop-up flash can be flattened when flash is suppressed or whether it is annoying, as users of the Canon SX100? found. Is the spinning back wheel like the S90 or better implemented, and how much better is the LCD. Also whether the snappy A/F delivers.

Potentially the F300 looks like an excellent 6mp travel cam and I look forward to your assessment, along with those from Kim and others buyng one.

Thanks,

Nick

Jim in AZ said:

If you want DSLR like images then buy a chunky DSLR

Click to expand...

Them manufacturers should congratulate themselves for imprinting that message so deeply in mass-consciousness, that serves as an instant excuse for delivering any substandard product, without even bothering them for explanations...

--

"I reject the reality and substitute my own" - is it your approach to discussion? Surely, not mine.

bushi said:

bushi said:

If you want DSLR like images then buy a chunky DSLR

Click to expand...

Them manufacturers should congratulate themselves for imprinting that message so deeply in mass-consciousness, that serves as an instant excuse for delivering any substandard product , without even bothering them for explanations...

Click to expand...

VERY well said Bushi...

--
Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours...

Fuji F30, F31, S6500, OLY C4000Z, Canon Film EOS,
Nikon D60, 18-55VR, 18-105VR, 55-200VR, 35/1.8G, 50/1.8D, SB-400

Radu P said:

Raw is nice, but it would be even nicer to be able to adjust the JPG engine settings, like the sharpening level (including disabling it), lens correction on/off (if any is done), and NR on/off.

Click to expand...

Agree we need this stuff and it's puzzling why Fuji does not address these point.
I'd love a low or off setting for jpeg NR
Sharpening, contrast, saturation adjustments

And for crying out loud a review histogram at least and AEB. Really basic stuff and it's 2010 and still not being addressed. Wake up please Fuji!

Barry Fitzgerald said:

Radu P said:

Raw is nice, but it would be even nicer to be able to adjust the JPG engine settings, like the sharpening level (including disabling it), lens correction on/off (if any is done), and NR on/off.

Click to expand...

Agree we need this stuff and it's puzzling why Fuji does not address these point.
I'd love a low or off setting for jpeg NR
Sharpening, contrast, saturation adjustments

And for crying out loud a review histogram at least and AEB. Really basic stuff and it's 2010 and still not being addressed. Wake up please Fuji!

Click to expand...

We can agree on that. I often wonder how much design patents hold back some of these features. Is it possible that others have all the patents on histograms and in order to keep the price down Fuji avoid paying out royalties? Is it possible?

Nick

Radu P said:

You can't have a compact camera using the F30/6000fd sensor. I had a 6000fd camera, and it only had a 10.3x zoom, from 28 to 300mm, and it was as big as a DSLR. And it had no IS, bad purple fringing, terrible long exposure noise at night.

Click to expand...

We are not talking about the S6500 here, although the S6500 was a hell of a camera in its time (even now), certainly way better in IQ than any HS10 or other similar offering.

The cam that took the above shot was the F30 at iso1600. And that was a compact cam alright. And so were the F31 and the F10/11/20 before it.

The point I am making is that Fuji could have devoted a tiny part of their 'wasted' 4 year development (down the EXR and megazoom folly) to extend its zoom range to say the same as the F100, add IS, leave everything else alone and have an almost perfect cam, way better than what they have on offer today. Then they could have turned to more mps, EXRs and super zooms (at the expense of IQ) for those interested. At least they would have shown some respect to the users that entered their 'shop' because of the IQ of the SCCD (F10/11/20/30/31)

Radu P said:

So if the IQ of this camera is close to the older ones, but with a much better zoom, size and lens, then I am all for it. I would sacrifice a bit of IQ for the much more expanded versatility.

Click to expand...

I hope the F300 gets close to the F30/F31 IQ. Otherwise, Fuji's 4 year pranks would be for nothing.

Radu P said:

Regarding your sample, it is an unfair comparison. The hair in your shot takes a larger part of the photo, and the image has been sized down a lot. It looks pretty good for ISO 1600...

Click to expand...

You can find thousands of similar examples to my pic at sizes that suit you. Do you believe there is any of the 'modern' compact Fujis that can produce similar at iso1600? If 'yes', please point me to it.

Radu P said:

...but my experience with the S6000fd at high ISO is very disappointing. Look at this 2 seconds ISO 1600 exposure: http://www.flickr.com/photos/radu_privantu/1319018208/sizes/o/in/photostream/
It looks like an impressionist painting.

Click to expand...

Did you try taking a similar shot with one of the 'modern' Fuji bridge cams?...

--
Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours...

Fuji F30, F31, S6500, OLY C4000Z, Canon Film EOS,
Nikon D60, 18-55VR, 18-105VR, 55-200VR, 35/1.8G, 50/1.8D, SB-400