Next FF will be pelix based?

A pellix camera only has 2/3 of the light hitting the sensor effectively requiring ISO 150 to compare with the brightness of ISO 100 on a traditional DSLR. ....................................................................
Not really, it's known that the so-called pellix ( old Canon term ) or translucent ( probably Sony's term ) only diverts about 1/3 of a stop of light independently of the total light perceived. That's quite different than 1/3 of the total light, practically negligible!

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Lucas

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Always having fun with photography ...

Starting a new gallery: http://lucaspix.smugmug.com/

 
Actually, isn't the current rumor that Sony is discontinuing FF sensors and cameras?
That was yesterday's rumour.
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smarta$$ mode on

"Pellix" is a Canon trademark term they used to lable their cameras that used pellicle mirrors - The Canon Pellix from 1965 and the Canon Pellix QL from 1966.

Using that term to denote pellicle mirror cameras or as a synonym for the pellicle mirror is a bit like calling every mirrorless camera a m4/3-camera.
smarta$$ mode off
Sony are apparently using this technology for quite a different reason than Canon did - so the two cameras are in no way comparable.
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What a horrible thought!
 
I think it is impossible to tell how well consumer or professional will react; but it could be well embraced. If IQ and image control (i.e. DOF, exposure, etc.) are on par with current mirrored offerings, the pro market will embrace it. They just want what will do the job the best. If video doesn't do it for you, 10 FPS stills with continuous focus should give sports and wildlife shooters something to consider. A certain sector of the consumer market also might not care. They will pit spec against spec and not understand any compromise that might be inherent in the design. My guess is the only ones that won't give it a chance are the advanced amateur market. We seem to think we know it all and have the unique ability to judge a product before it is available. ;)
For obvious reasons many sports and wildlife photographers prefer APS-C sensors - (i.e. an A700 successor) and 10fps makes more sense there. I also think that APS-C - which is close to the image size of a 35mm cine camera - is also plenty enough for HD video.

In their next FF cameras I hope Sony don't sacrifice still image IQ on the alter of video, high FPS, and such "features" - might just as well buy a Canon if they do.
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Is that enough light for af sensors. Compared to the amount of light they get now.
A pellix camera only has 2/3 of the light hitting the sensor effectively requiring ISO 150 to compare with the brightness of ISO 100 on a traditional DSLR. ....................................................................
Not really, it's known that the so-called pellix ( old Canon term ) or translucent ( probably Sony's term ) only diverts about 1/3 of a stop of light independently of the total light perceived. That's quite different than 1/3 of the total light, practically negligible!

...
Lucas

--
Always having fun with photography ...

Starting a new gallery: http://lucaspix.smugmug.com/

 
I prefer evf over ovf if :
  • the evf tilts as in the old minolta A2 and video cams
  • the lcd screen is articulated
why ?
  • with life view a very good control on sharpness : bigger screen to look at + magnification (before and not after shooting !)(macro , pack-shots ...)
  • shooting from over the head or from very low
no need of slapping mirror and heavy pentaprism

video option is also welcome

the evf of the minolta A2 was already much bigger and brighter then the A1 and P/S camera's
the evf in my panna G1 is not bad at all
new techniques will make evf better and better

Nice new "rumor" from Sony.
guido
 
To put anything in between the sensor and the lens is the most stupid idea if applied in this technological era. It would be better if Sony utilizes a digital approach using the main sensor to judge focus while in live view.

Sensors now can "detect" faces, why not the edge of an object? In this manner, we won't have anything obstructing the path of image from the lens to the sensor. Several things will go to obsolesence; 1) slapping reflex mirror, 2) heavy pentaprism, 3) piggy-back mirror for autofocusing assembly, etc. 4) old phase detection system (I want to kick Honeywell in the ass).

In place of these, we can have a high definition EVF. More features will replace the old optical system limitations. You can never "view" through the optical viewfinder an infra-red image, with EVF it will be possible. With an EVF you can do photography/video recording in total darkness. So infra-red photography will be standard on all future Sony EVF/LV cameras. This has been always in my wish list.
 
Is that enough light for af sensors. Compared to the amount of light they get now.
If they are going to do this it would sure be nice to see AF revised so it could work with much less light and therefore work well in more situations. We are stuck at the moment with AF still only doing as well on light sensitivity as it did when it was invented.

Oh, sorry, I forgot that only video matters and such improvements would be for still photography :-)

Walt
 
first thanks for sharing this.
I didnt see anyone post a topic on this specifically yet...I just saw this on the sony rumor factory (see below for link).

So I still shoot and love my APSC sensored cameras, but I want to move up to FF one day. I've decided I wanted to wait for the next FF model mainly because I want to see them implement the better high ISO performance that the lower end models are getting these days, that and I'd prefer to build up my lens assortment in preparation for FF.

I dont care about video in a fullframe, although I would probably use it now and then. The current rumor is that the next FF will be a pelix mirror based...to me this seems a bit forward. My understanding is that the entire reason that Sony is using pelix mirrors in their new a33 and a55 is to allow phase detect AF in video. Thats great but I dont want that in the next fullframe. I think pelix is great for making a camera that can do very good video and stills...but that would not be my reason for buying a FF camera.

I believe, this also will mean the FF will have an EVF. Heres another feature I am looking forward too, one day. I want to see high quality EVF's, but in my experience a really good OVF is still superior. I would still want a big fat OVF on the FF camera that I buy. Although, I would give it a serious try if it did have an EVF.
it is great , if they go this route I will be very happy, an advanced pro level EVF is much better than OVF for macro and portrait.
IMO Sony should not make the next FF cam pelix based, if they must do so then there should be 2 models - one that is pelix based for better video and one that is mirror based and traditional which also does video. Still, I think they might be better off doing a dual release of two traditional DSLR's with 2 sensor sizes - one super high res 30+MP and another with 12-16MP for people that only need that.
huh, disagree , I think Sony should go pixel based and high megapixel more than 35 mp and just get S-RAW mode like the 5D2.

the SrAW is very very useful when you dont want huge files , just shoot S-RAW or when you want low noise possible at very high ISO you just shoot SRAW.
 
pellicle mirrors would be a good way to achieve a high frame rate. If it is to be found in a DSLR, most likely it would be a sports model or a sports/video model capable of shooting close to 25 frames per second. Since there is no moving mirror, the number of frames per second is not limited by how fast the mirror can move up and down. A photographer can point his camera at his subject and shoot a movie. Then pick out the still image later which is as high in quality as one shot with a still camera. This kind of camera has been discussed as technically achievable at the Luminous landscape. We may well see Sony adopt it, and bypassing the the movable mirror DSLR camera like the Canon 1D and Nikon D3.
Sony should not make the next FF cam pelix based, if they must do so then there should be 2 models - one that is pelix based for better video and one that is mirror based and traditional
Thanks for the link - very interesting and uplifting news/rumors.

I can understand, Sony needs to differentiate themselves from Canikon by doing something beter and smarter in order to get enough attention in the marketplace. Pellix-technology in one such differentiation.

Having it both ways - EVF with pellix and OVF with traditional mirrorbox - would be great. If so, the pellix version should be introduced first, of course, to gain momentum in sales. If that works, the OVF/traditional mirror could be added to the succes.

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Documensony
'Spontaneity is enabled by rigorous practice'
 
A pellix camera only has 2/3 of the light hitting the sensor effectively requiring ISO 150 to compare with the brightness of ISO 100 on a traditional DSLR.
Not really, it's known that the so-called pellix ( old Canon term ) or translucent ( probably Sony's term ) only diverts about 1/3 of a stop of light independently of the total light perceived. That's quite different than 1/3 of the total light, practically negligible!
How exactly is it known that the pellicle (pellix) mirror only diverts 1/3 of a stop of light from the film or sensor? Honestly, the only source of information I've seen on this was a Wikipedia article on the Canon Pellix camera (see link), and unfortunately, Wikipedia articles often are written by people who don't have much of a clue what they're talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Pellix

For example, in the above article, the section entitled " The Pellicle Mirror " starts off by stating, "The Pellix semitransparent fixed mirror splits the light rays from the lens into about two-thirds hitting the film, while the rest is reflected to the viewfinder."

It then goes on to say, three sentences later, "However the novel design has its flaws, the obvious ones being loss of light, which after all is not very significant; one third of a stop loss in the exposure, that amount being redirected to the finder, which is two thirds of a stop dimmer compared to using a fully reflecting mirror.

So, over the span of three sentences, one-third of the total light suddenly transformed into one-third of a stop of light -- which, as you said, is quite a difference.

Then again, that camera didn't even have autofocus, so whatever proportions its mirror might actually have split the incoming light into, it's not necessarily relevant to a modern digital version of the camera that requires the mirror to reflect light to an AF module instead of an optical viewfinder (because this one will have an electronic viewfinder being fed a video signal directly from the image sensor).

I believe there are a couple of potential reasons why the pellicle mirror in the (rumored) upcoming Sony cameras would need to divert much more than 1/3 of a stop of light -- or perhaps even more than 1/3 of the total light -- to the AF module ...
  1. Modern AF DSLRs divert currently divert more than that to the AF module. For example, Canon 1-series DSLRs split the incoming light 63% to the viewfinder, and 37% to the AF module. Lower models (7D and below) split it up 60/40, instead of 63/37.
  2. In order for phase-detection AF to work with video, it will be necessary for the AF to work with the lens stopped down to the shooting aperture. This is never the case for any current DSLR still camera, which always performs AF and metering with the lens aperture fully open (only stopping the lens down to the chosen shooting aperture after the shutter button has been fully pressed). Because of this, it may be necessary to divert even more light to the AF module than in a typical AF DSLR.
So, do you have a reliable source of information saying that the pellicle mirror will only need to divert 1/3 of a stop of light away from the image sensor?
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Greg
 
They should make both A99 and A9xx instead. Put Canikon styles AVCHD video on A9xx, that wlll make some reviewer happy without compromising for a good OVF.
 
I think that Video is a great experience for many people when they can use or play with it with their first video capable camera. This explains why there was such a demand for these video DSLR's.

Some of these buyers will not buy more DSLR's just because of improvements in the video area because they now know that they use video only occasional.

To make future DSLR's successful products they must be improved in other areas. This is just my personal opinion.
Oh, sorry, I forgot that only video matters and such improvements would be for still photography :-)

Walt
 
Someone usefully commented on the sar site that the new 'FF' sensor config actually came from literature that referred to security cameras:

http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/vol52/featuring2.html

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-new-generation-of-fullframe-sony-sensor-ready-ff-camera-to-be-announced-by-early-2011/

It seems to me that lots of people are feeding rubbish to sar, who do not know enought to filter it...
Thanks, Mike. A little research always helps - especially around rumors. Painful to see that the SAR rumor announcement mixes EXMOR HD (which is CMOS ) with Super HAD CCD pictures directly under the "article" headline - give me a break.

Disclaimer: This is not to bash Sony, but to comment on the "quality" of SAR.
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Ralf
http://RalfRalph.smugmug.com/
 
Alpha Jack wrote:

My guess is the only ones that won't give it a chance are the advanced amateur market. We seem to think we know it all and have the unique ability to judge a product before it is available. ;)

Seems to me like the EVF & pellicule promoters are the ones doing that. Promoting an experimental approach as the future of all when it's not out.

Walt
First, I hope you are not saying that I am promoting it. I am taking the wait and see approach I always take. I don't pre-judge any vaporware other than maybe the reported specifications. For instance if these cameras exist, 10FPS with continuous focus should garner a whoooooole lotta attention. I don't care how they make improvements as long as the improvements are reliable and don't compromise something else that I value. I'm not hung up on tradition. Of course if the loss of light is too severe, that would be a compromise I could not accept. If there is no OVF, I would hesitate to embrace it, but would not rule it out. It's wait and see for me.

Second, this is a rumor that has a bit more behind it than the average rumor. It has a real patent behind it and has been reported consistently since at least early June. I have been quick in the past to call out unlikely rumors (entry level bodies without video to be announced at a broadcasting convention...geez). I have not really bought into any of the 7xx rumors. In the end it is just a gut feeling, but I believe this rumor and I understand the benefits as well as the risks of compromise. We shall see. My hope is that this is the homerun we need to continue the a-mount for years to come. IMHO, it has the potential to have more of an impact on our beloved mount than a new 7xx, 8xx, or 9xx.
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Zeiss taste...Beercan budget!
 
Alpha Jack wrote:

My guess is the only ones that won't give it a chance are the advanced amateur market. We seem to think we know it all and have the unique ability to judge a product before it is available. ;)

Seems to me like the EVF & pellicule promoters are the ones doing that. Promoting an experimental approach as the future of all when it's not out.

Walt
First, I hope you are not saying that I am promoting it. I am taking the wait and see approach I always take. I don't pre-judge any vaporware other than maybe the reported specifications. For instance if these cameras exist, 10FPS with continuous focus should garner a whoooooole lotta attention. I don't care how they make improvements as long as the improvements are reliable and don't compromise something else that I value. I'm not hung up on tradition. Of course if the loss of light is too severe, that would be a compromise I could not accept. If there is no OVF, I would hesitate to embrace it, but would not rule it out. It's wait and see for me.

Second, this is a rumor that has a bit more behind it than the average rumor. It has a real patent behind it and has been reported consistently since at least early June. I have been quick in the past to call out unlikely rumors (entry level bodies without video to be announced at a broadcasting convention...geez). I have not really bought into any of the 7xx rumors. In the end it is just a gut feeling, but I believe this rumor and I understand the benefits as well as the risks of compromise. We shall see. My hope is that this is the homerun we need to continue the a-mount for years to come. IMHO, it has the potential to have more of an impact on our beloved mount than a new 7xx, 8xx, or 9xx.
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Zeiss taste...Beercan budget!
Okay...awkward moment here. I am rebutting myself. I actually don't have an opinion on whether this rumor is true or not. In fact I might actually lean toward doubt. I wrote this having had only one cup of coffee which is always a bit risky. I do believe that we are getting AXX cameras. I do believe there could be a future FF AXX. Regarding the next FF model being in that series...I dunno. Still, it is intriguing to consider and I do think that if it is well executed and minimizes the compromises could be a huge hit and could very well create a new market for FF a-mount glass.
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Zeiss taste...Beercan budget!
 
Whenever we work with pellicles in the lab, not breaking them is our biggest priority--they are quite fragile. They do what they are supposed to--which is to be a beamsplitter that does not affect transmitted wavefront even in a non-collimated beam.
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Steve W
weather photos: http://home.comcast.net/~scwest/atmo/
 
Could pellicle mirrors also be for 3D?

Sony apparently has single-lens 3D technology for video cameras: " The technology relies on a single 'main lens' and a gauntlet of four mirrors, which divert two portions of the single image to two separate 'imaging lenses,' which are then captured by two separate sensors. "

see:
http://digitalcontentproducer.com/cameras/revfeat/cameras_nab_2010_0319/
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