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Next FF will be pelix based?

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Gregory Kemp

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I didnt see anyone post a topic on this specifically yet...I just saw this on the sony rumor factory (see below for link).

So I still shoot and love my APSC sensored cameras, but I want to move up to FF one day. I've decided I wanted to wait for the next FF model mainly because I want to see them implement the better high ISO performance that the lower end models are getting these days, that and I'd prefer to build up my lens assortment in preparation for FF.

I dont care about video in a fullframe, although I would probably use it now and then. The current rumor is that the next FF will be a pelix mirror based...to me this seems a bit forward. My understanding is that the entire reason that Sony is using pelix mirrors in their new a33 and a55 is to allow phase detect AF in video. Thats great but I dont want that in the next fullframe. I think pelix is great for making a camera that can do very good video and stills...but that would not be my reason for buying a FF camera.

I believe, this also will mean the FF will have an EVF. Heres another feature I am looking forward too, one day. I want to see high quality EVF's, but in my experience a really good OVF is still superior. I would still want a big fat OVF on the FF camera that I buy. Although, I would give it a serious try if it did have an EVF.

IMO Sony should not make the next FF cam pelix based, if they must do so then there should be 2 models - one that is pelix based for better video and one that is mirror based and traditional which also does video. Still, I think they might be better off doing a dual release of two traditional DSLR's with 2 sensor sizes - one super high res 30+MP and another with 12-16MP for people that only need that.

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-new-generation-of-fullframe-sony-sensor-ready-ff-camera-to-be-announced-by-early-2011/

Greg
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gkemp/
 
Gregory Kemp said:
Sony should not make the next FF cam pelix based, if they must do so then there should be 2 models - one that is pelix based for better video and one that is mirror based and traditional
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Thanks for the link - very interesting and uplifting news/rumors.

I can understand, Sony needs to differentiate themselves from Canikon by doing something beter and smarter in order to get enough attention in the marketplace. Pellix-technology in one such differentiation.

Having it both ways - EVF with pellix and OVF with traditional mirrorbox - would be great. If so, the pellix version should be introduced first, of course, to gain momentum in sales. If that works, the OVF/traditional mirror could be added to the succes.

--
-----------------------
Documensony
'Spontaneity is enabled by rigorous practice'
 
Documensony said:
Gregory Kemp said:
Sony should not make the next FF cam pelix based, if they must do so then there should be 2 models - one that is pelix based for better video and one that is mirror based and traditional
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Documensony said:
.............................................................

Having it both ways - EVF with pellix and OVF with traditional mirrorbox - would be great. If so, the pellix version should be introduced first, of course, to gain momentum in sales. If that works, the OVF/traditional mirror could be added to the succes.
Click to expand...
AFAIK the pellix concept can be either OVF or EVF, although Sony seems to have chosen EVF for the rumored A35/A55. Anyway, there are too many unknowns at this point. IMHO we have now to be double-patient, give it some more time ( 2-3 months? ) and I'm we'll know!

As happened with the NEX launching, Sony may be preparing several other good news to "flood the market" in a way that it will give us an enjoyable "hard time" to swallow everything that's coming ( I like to think positive and that has paid off to me with Sony until now... ).

... Lucas
--
Always having fun with photography ...

Starting a new gallery: http://lucaspix.smugmug.com/

 
Actually, making the next FF in a pelix version makes a lot of sense. Whether we like it or not, video is making an impact now. For those that aren't convinced that video can be useful, there is plenty of others that understand the benefits. The entire season final episode of House was shot on 5D Mark II. I understand that a lot of other equipment had to go into it. We aren't talking about a few guys standing around with nothing but their dSLRs, but the potential is quite impressive and understood by the world outside of a few on this forum.

To gain market share on cutting edge products you have to be first or best. We all know Sony wasn't first. They have stated that they want to be best. The pelix advantages seem to be realized most with video. The advantages will create a stir in the commercial market that could have huge dividends to the consumer market. We now know that the AXX series is real and it already is causing a buzz. A FF version will no doubt garner a lot of attention. Given the rumor that Sony may get out of the FF market, this (if true) should be welcome news by all on this forum (although I expect to some it is the end of the world). Any reason to continue manufacturing and development of FF sensors. I hope this rumor is true.
--
Zeiss taste...Beercan budget!
 
As long is FF and 24mp or more, I'll be more than happy with it.

But I also think is too early to go only for EVF. They will probably need two versions first.
 
win39 said:
Actually, isn't the current rumor that Sony is discontinuing FF sensors and cameras?
Click to expand...
That is a current rumor. I don't think either rumor qualifies as the rumor.
--
Zeiss taste...Beercan budget!
 
smarta$$ mode on

"Pellix" is a Canon trademark term they used to lable their cameras that used pellicle mirrors - The Canon Pellix from 1965 and the Canon Pellix QL from 1966.

Using that term to denote pellicle mirror cameras or as a synonym for the pellicle mirror is a bit like calling every mirrorless camera a m4/3-camera.

smarta$$ mode off
 
I agree that it could be a smart move for them, but then again, they dont really know how well their pellicle cams are going to do yet with consumers, so it seems like if they are already developing a full frame that is a bit soon. Plus, the FF cameras target a decisively different user base, those in the professional market. Most pro photographers are going to stick with what they do best - photos, sure some will be be adventurous and step into video and maybe even make it part of their routine.

The issue though is that the pellicle mirror makes the camera more video centric because it is making a compromise which allows better video shooting, at the cost of some light loss to the sensor. I realize the loss is minimal, something like 1/3 stop from what I understand, but a 1/3 stop is a 1/3 stop and it can make a big difference in some low light shooting situations.

The EVF is another story, while I would certainly give it a shot and see how I liked it, it would really have to sell me on being a superior method than OVF before I would purchase a pro-grade camera that includes it. I think a lot of other folks will be resistant to using an EVF even if you can show them its really better. One thing I really do like thats possible with EVF, is the ability to zoom in on a spot for focus checking.

Greg
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gkemp/
 
I think that translucent mirror is the accepted catch phrase ?

The use of a pellicle translucent mirror is unlikely in a FF camera quite so soon as the technology has to be proved in lesser cameras but I suppose they might just be tempted to use that technology if they want reliable phase contrast AF for Video ?

They may put the A850 on hold just as they did with the A700 until it becomes clear whether or not a sufficient demand for a traditional FF model is still there.

IF there is a new Video-capable sensor for the translucent model then this may explain the rumoured falling out with Nikon who may prefer a more traditional FF sensor without Video output ? Any update to the A850 sensor may have been put on hold until the future of traditional FF becomes clearer.
--
Keith-C
 
If sony makes a translucent mirror FF I would definatly be interested, I got a900 with more than enough resolution and one of the verry best OVF on the maket, and got no need for a new FF with even more resolution.

A new FF with higher FPS and improved focus performace at moving targets is verry interesting. When it comes to the quality of the EVF it remains yet to be seen, but I expect only top of the line for a FF. As I understand it will be possible to flip up the mirror for low light shots, good thinkin sony.

I think this is a verry tempting idea, but I would be verry dissapointed if I were to rely on EVF only in the future, thats not a good idea. Give us a choice Sony.

André F
 
win39 said:
Actually, isn't the current rumor that Sony is discontinuing FF sensors and cameras?
Click to expand...
No--yesterday's rumor was that a division of Sony was "considering" discontinuing development of ff sensors. The current rumor is that Sony has competed work on one or more FF sensors, to be introduced in new cameras probably in early 2011.
--
Dulaney
A700; SAL 50 f1.4; SAL 18-250; CZ 85 f1.4
 
ck3 said:
smarta$$ mode on

"Pellix" is a Canon trademark term they used to lable their cameras that used pellicle mirrors - The Canon Pellix from 1965 and the Canon Pellix QL from 1966.

Using that term to denote pellicle mirror cameras or as a synonym for the pellicle mirror is a bit like calling every mirrorless camera a m4/3-camera.

smarta$$ mode off
Click to expand...
Please go have a Coke and a smile and if you are allergic to Coke be sure to blow your nose with a Kleenex. ;)
--
Zeiss taste...Beercan budget!
 
What would REALLY be neat would be for Sony to roll out all three ranges of Alpha cameras (NEX, Alpha translucent, & Alpha dslr) all the way from 3-level cameras through 9-level cameras. That would mean we would get A7xx, A 77, & NEX 7, as well as A9xx, A99, & NEX 9--maybe in a couple of different levels within each level (15 & 18 mpx? 24 & 36 mpx?)
--
Dulaney
A700; SAL 50 f1.4; SAL 18-250; CZ 85 f1.4
 
Gregory Kemp said:
I agree that it could be a smart move for them, but then again, they dont really know how well their pellicle cams are going to do yet with consumers, so it seems like if they are already developing a full frame that is a bit soon. Plus, the FF cameras target a decisively different user base, those in the professional market. Most pro photographers are going to stick with what they do best - photos, sure some will be be adventurous and step into video and maybe even make it part of their routine.

The issue though is that the pellicle mirror makes the camera more video centric because it is making a compromise which allows better video shooting, at the cost of some light loss to the sensor. I realize the loss is minimal, something like 1/3 stop from what I understand, but a 1/3 stop is a 1/3 stop and it can make a big difference in some low light shooting situations.

The EVF is another story, while I would certainly give it a shot and see how I liked it, it would really have to sell me on being a superior method than OVF before I would purchase a pro-grade camera that includes it. I think a lot of other folks will be resistant to using an EVF even if you can show them its really better. One thing I really do like thats possible with EVF, is the ability to zoom in on a spot for focus checking.

Greg
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gkemp/
Click to expand...
I think it is impossible to tell how well consumer or professional will react; but it could be well embraced. If IQ and image control (i.e. DOF, exposure, etc.) are on par with current mirrored offerings, the pro market will embrace it. They just want what will do the job the best. If video doesn't do it for you, 10 FPS stills with continuous focus should give sports and wildlife shooters something to consider. A certain sector of the consumer market also might not care. They will pit spec against spec and not understand any compromise that might be inherent in the design. My guess is the only ones that won't give it a chance are the advanced amateur market. We seem to think we know it all and have the unique ability to judge a product before it is available. ;)
--
Zeiss taste...Beercan budget!
 
Gregory Kemp said:
I didnt see anyone post a topic on this specifically yet...I just saw this on the sony rumor factory (see below for link).
Click to expand...
It's interesting how the folks inventing rumors do anything but DSLR as their core idea.
Gregory Kemp said:
So I still shoot and love my APSC sensored cameras, but I want to move up to FF one day. I've decided I wanted to wait for the next FF model mainly because I want to see them implement the better high ISO performance that the lower end models are getting these days, that and I'd prefer to build up my lens assortment in preparation for FF.
Click to expand...
I fully expect Sony to catch up with their beginner camera sensors, but not so likely to catch up with other brands where they are behind.
Gregory Kemp said:
I dont care about video in a fullframe, although I would probably use it now and then. The current rumor is that the next FF will be a pelix mirror based...to me this seems a bit forward. My understanding is that the entire reason that Sony is using pelix mirrors in their new a33 and a55 is to allow phase detect AF in video. Thats great but I dont want that in the next fullframe. I think pelix is great for making a camera that can do very good video and stills...but that would not be my reason for buying a FF camera.

I believe, this also will mean the FF will have an EVF. Heres another feature I am looking forward too, one day. I want to see high quality EVF's, but in my experience a really good OVF is still superior. I would still want a big fat OVF on the FF camera that I buy. Although, I would give it a serious try if it did have an EVF.

IMO Sony should not make the next FF cam pelix based, if they must do so then there should be 2 models - one that is pelix based for better video and one that is mirror based and traditional which also does video. Still, I think they might be better off doing a dual release of two traditional DSLR's with 2 sensor sizes - one super high res 30+MP and another with 12-16MP for people that only need that.
Click to expand...
I'd tend to class the pellicule to be more like experimental. And agree it's primary reason is video. But you will get no choice in video, you get it no matter what. And seemingly no matter how much the camera must be modified to make video work. We shall see if the pellicule cameras are an improvement for still photography or not.

There simply are not EVF screens that can come close to OVF yet at a price that they could be put in an affordable camera. It's not clear that the price vs quality balance will ever be reached with EVF. But, of course, like video no choice will be given and it will all be EVF, no matter what quality.

Yes there are lots of improvements for still photography that are far more desirable to advanced folks. But it will be very hard to get those from Sony while Canon and Nikon will almost certainly do them.

Walt
 
Alpha Jack wrote:

My guess is the only ones that won't give it a chance are the advanced amateur market. We seem to think we know it all and have the unique ability to judge a product before it is available. ;)

Seems to me like the EVF & pellicule promoters are the ones doing that. Promoting an experimental approach as the future of all when it's not out.

Walt
 
A pellix camera only has 2/3 of the light hitting the sensor effectively requiring ISO 150 to compare with the brightness of ISO 100 on a traditional DSLR. Also the image sharpness is lower on a pellix camera due to the light having to pass through a mirror. What happens if the mirror gets dirty? Pellix mirrors are impossibly difficult to clean and would probably require replacement. For slightly faster autofocus I just don't see that as enough of an advantage over a future NEX 7 which will have a sharper image, all the light hitting the sensor and a much smaller body.
 
The rumour only says that "The design of the camera is based on the next pellix camera (which we will see in late August)." That could mean several things.

It would seem stupid to put an EVF in an a850 / a900 successor at this point - the OVF on those cameras has won praises in every review.

Hope they don't sacrifice colour rendition for high iso and video.

The market for FF cameras is fairly small - I doubt if it would make economic sense for Sony to simultaneously develop 2 new FF sensors .

To compete against Canon and Nikon in the FF market Sony also need to expand their lens range - a couple more ZA primes would be nice - ( and maybe the whole range of Zeiss manual focus primes in A-mount?) - and perhaps a tilt-shift lens.

One of the things that make Sony FF cameras very attractive is the Zeiss lenses - but the range is limited. The fact that the CZ manual focus prime lenses aren't available in A-mount is also a turn-off.
  • C
Gregory Kemp said:
I didnt see anyone post a topic on this specifically yet...I just saw this on the sony rumor factory (see below for link).

So I still shoot and love my APSC sensored cameras, but I want to move up to FF one day. I've decided I wanted to wait for the next FF model mainly because I want to see them implement the better high ISO performance that the lower end models are getting these days, that and I'd prefer to build up my lens assortment in preparation for FF.

I dont care about video in a fullframe, although I would probably use it now and then. The current rumor is that the next FF will be a pelix mirror based...to me this seems a bit forward. My understanding is that the entire reason that Sony is using pelix mirrors in their new a33 and a55 is to allow phase detect AF in video. Thats great but I dont want that in the next fullframe. I think pelix is great for making a camera that can do very good video and stills...but that would not be my reason for buying a FF camera.

I believe, this also will mean the FF will have an EVF. Heres another feature I am looking forward too, one day. I want to see high quality EVF's, but in my experience a really good OVF is still superior. I would still want a big fat OVF on the FF camera that I buy. Although, I would give it a serious try if it did have an EVF.

IMO Sony should not make the next FF cam pelix based, if they must do so then there should be 2 models - one that is pelix based for better video and one that is mirror based and traditional which also does video. Still, I think they might be better off doing a dual release of two traditional DSLR's with 2 sensor sizes - one super high res 30+MP and another with 12-16MP for people that only need that.

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-new-generation-of-fullframe-sony-sensor-ready-ff-camera-to-be-announced-by-early-2011/

Greg
Click to expand...
 
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