Full length lighting

What a miserable, nasty thread.

CLTHRS- you have SO MUCH to offer others here- why are you spending a nickel of your time to bash someone else so heavily? It's just not worth your attention, and sullys your credibility takes in the process.

Here's the scoop, in my opinion, about Dean Collins:

1. Dean Collins is an educator, NOT a photographer. He was smart enough to stop shooting and start making money. Lots of it, and certainly more than any photographer I know. Yes, even the houshold names.

2. Nasty comments about his advertising copy aside, I believe he HAS influenced more photographers about lighting and Photoshop than many others, including my personal pillars of the craft, Penn and Karsh. And I'd include Sokolsky among them. The reason? Media savvy. Dean Collins knows how to reach people and how to teach and entertain. And he's paid very, very well, with agreements with Kodak, Adobe, blah, blah, blah.

3. Dean Collins markets himself and his training comprehensively. The techniques he used and now teaches, while undoubtedly less sophisticated than a "walk through Vanity Fair" are meant to attract Mr/Ms Ordinary Photographer to his products. That's target marketing, and Dean is very good at it. Puffery is expected and appropriate.

4. One of the best places one can learn and understand the inverse square law, diffuse vs. spectral highlights, luminosity, and the nature of light in general is at a Dean Collins seminar. This guy can lay it out for you in a useful, entertaining way that provides solid examples that are easily within the envelope of comprehension of dullards like myself. It's all there, and he does a great job. Should we all just watch Collins Video's and stop expanding our techniques? Hell, no. He teaches basic, entry level skills for photographers and graphic designers. His latest products feature the work of working pros from different areas of expertise, including Photoshop training by Adobe's Juliane Kost, who's two-hour lecture at PhotoWest crammed my brain with more PS techniques than I could handle.

5. In the interest of full disclosure I should say that I've met him several times, the first time was as an assistant. I was working for a photographer in an adjacent studio shooting cars with an RB. Dean saw the setup and brought over his brand-new RZ lens and, unsolicited, encouraged my boss to borrow his lens, as it was much sharper in the corners than the RB lens. He wanted to help out, and I've seen that spirit over and over. This is a decent human- a good guy.

And I've never heard him say a disparaging word about another person.

--
http://www.paulmbowers.com

I am somewhat embarrassed due to my part in this thread. The term "master" is one that I take very seriously & when it was applied to Dean Collins I got bothered.

Perhaps he is a master marketer, or entrepenuer, or such, but I have never seen any evidence that he is a master photographer or lighter. At one point the photographer I work with was considered the second most known photographer. The only better known photographer was Ansel Adams. I not sure this photographer is a master. There is something that doesn't quite fit, but maybe when I don't work with them & have a little distance, I will feel somewhat different.

I would be suprised if Dean makes more money than some of the top advertising photographers. We don't do anywhere near as much advertising as many photographers, but you should see the resale invoices. In addition, this photographer sells more gallery work than almost any other. Do you have a rough idea how much profit Dean's buisnesses bring in for him? It would be a good rub to tell some of the elite that Dean makes more money & I would love to see the expression on their faces.

I'm sure I would prefer to spend a weekend hanging out with Dean, rather than many of the best known photographers, including the one I currently work with. But if I want improve my skills, I would be better off with a camera in my hand.

Regards,
CLTHRS

CLTHRS said:

Bern Caughey said:

I'm sure I would prefer to spend a weekend hanging out with Dean,

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rather than many of the best known photographers, including the one
I currently work with. But if I want improve my skills, I would be
better off with a camera in my hand.

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If Dean is anywhere as decent a guy as his friends and supporters make out, I'd like to meet him too.

And so far as improving your own skills goes, CLTHRS, you're right. The only way to get there is to take the plunge and go for it on your own. With your pedigree, you should be able to fill in the lean spells with freelance lighting director work. I worked as both -- assistant and freelance photographer; although I never saw my name in lights, I did work with some very big clients, both editorial and commercial, in exciting locations.

Assisting was a hugely-beneficial educational experience, especially as I was working (not full-time, but frequently) with a real master of commercial lighting. But the REAL lessons were learned when I took what I'd acquired and applied it to situations where I was in control.

THAT was when photography became a passion all over again.

good luck!

ron

CLTHRS said:

I am somewhat embarrassed due to my part in this thread.

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Bottom line CLTHRS and I think this is a lesson for you: You have made it clear that you don't know Dean Collins or his work. If I don't know enough to make a judgment, then I'd say I don't know enough to make a judgment. You however, said "Dean Collins is not a master lighter. He's just a mediocre photographer who sells videos. Skip his videos." Regardless of what this says about Collins, this says something about you.

I am not alone in feeling you deserve better credit that you seem to be giving yourself. Especially in light of your last post here and your valuable help in several places in this forum.

Warm regards, sincerely.

Sethu
http://sethu.net

You however, said "Dean Collins is not a

Sethu said:

master lighter. He's just a mediocre photographer who sells videos.
Skip his videos." Regardless of what this says about Collins, this
says something about you.

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Sure it does. It says CLTHRS has views, and is open to sharing them. His views are not poisonous or as uninformed as you imply -- witness his earlier mentions of how, within the professional industry, Collins' work is widely-disparaged.

Reports in this thread show that Collins is, indeed, a widely-liked guy. For that alone, he is due respect. But in his self-marketing he lays himself wide open to questions about his real ability as a photographer. Because, let's face it, it as a photographer that he makes his money -- never mind that he hasn't had a client in eight years.

I could give you a list of past top-level clients prominent on the Fortune 500, as well as top-flight publications that are genuinely respected as being at the pinnacle of the editorial spectrum. And I would be telling no lies. I have worked for all of the names I could supply, and for some of them, many times, and in multiple international locations.

But if I were to imply that this experience had made me a master of lighting (never mind if Dean actually uses the term himself; in his marketing he clearly makes the implication), I'd be full of that stuff that rhymes with 'bit'.

Despite many attempts to be shown other evidence of Dean's work, I have STILL only seen three frames. One was uninteresting -- but the others were complete dreck. They were so bad that, if they were my first polaroids of the day, I'd be thinking of a new profession -- but so far, they are the only available 'proof' of Dean's masterful lighting.

Friends of Dean have made reference to his genius for marketing. That, I respect. But, if a product of this genius is the possible illusion that misleads many keen photographers into thinking that he is some kind of guru -- that is not so worthy of any kind of respect.

ron mcmillan

........that a guy can start a thread that develops into an interesting dialogue -- without having anything of interest to say himself.

The idea that anyone who criticises another must somehow have 'proof' that he or she, personally, is better at something than the person being targetted, is total BS.

ron mcmillan

Mike Ant said:

"BTW, I don't think someone has to prove to anybody they can do it
better before they can offer their opinion. I don't know CLTHRS,
but I have deduced the identity of some of those with whom he has
worked. Based on that, I'd be much more inclined to believe
anything he says over those whose biggest talent is self promotion."

Well honestly I think you have the right to offer your opinions as
well, but to flat out bash someone is a different situation. I just
think if someone is going to continue to go against a persons
techniques or abilities they should at least show how superior they
are to that person, especially when they write as if Dean Collins
flat out sucks.

Also like I said from the start, I have no idea about Dean Collins
except from the videos I had seen. I could care less if he really
does suck or if he is the greatest lighting guru out there. I just
was asking a question to people about a lighting technique, not
whether I should follow his opinions. If CLTHRS is as good as you
are telling me then I would like to hear his/her opinions!

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ron mcmillan said:

His views are not poisonous or as uninformed as you imply --

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Let us read what is written at face value:

CLTHRS said

ron mcmillan said:

Dean Collins is not a master lighter. He's just a mediocre photographer
who sells videos. Skip his videos.

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One professional calling another mediocre is poisonous. Ethics demand we stand up for a fellow professional regardless of personal opinions on his or her proficiency.

Further, by his own admission, CLTHRS has not seen enough work to make such a call. This makes that an uninformed view.

Once again. I have much respect for both Ron and CLTHRS for the help I get from you and I am not alone in this.

What we are missing in that original definition of Collins as a "master" has probably to do with one meaning for the word master that has to do with being a teacher (master-student, old British public school rhetoric, get it?)

Sethu
http://sethu.net

Perhaps you missed the post where I said that I have seen examples of his work for the past twenty years. I would really like to see something to change my mind, but it sounds as if Dean has mostly gone on to another profession. I would be interested in seeing the published images for the NFL.

Regards,
CLTHRS