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TTL Falsh on 717?
- Thread starter Sean Lai
- Start date
Steve Cavigliano
Veteran Member
Sean,
That weak one from Sony, that you're talking about, is the only one that will give you TTL. Then, only in Auto modes. Shooting with it in Manual, AP or SP is almost as challenging as get a good focus using Manual focus.
BTW, the wealk flash is called the HVL-F1000. It's a big step up from the internal flash, but obviously not a pro-type flash. If you want some power, check out http://www.srelectronics.com/dlx3000.html Their Deluxe 3000 slave flash is pretty strong and triggers off the internal flash. It uses a flash bracket too, which gives you lots of options vis-a-vis flash elevation/angle.
Bharat seems to get some good lighting from it, Here's a link to his page.
http://www.pbase.com/bharat/digi_flash_pictures&edit%3DY
Steve
http://www.pbase.com/slo2k
That weak one from Sony, that you're talking about, is the only one that will give you TTL. Then, only in Auto modes. Shooting with it in Manual, AP or SP is almost as challenging as get a good focus using Manual focus.
BTW, the wealk flash is called the HVL-F1000. It's a big step up from the internal flash, but obviously not a pro-type flash. If you want some power, check out http://www.srelectronics.com/dlx3000.html Their Deluxe 3000 slave flash is pretty strong and triggers off the internal flash. It uses a flash bracket too, which gives you lots of options vis-a-vis flash elevation/angle.
Bharat seems to get some good lighting from it, Here's a link to his page.
http://www.pbase.com/bharat/digi_flash_pictures&edit%3DY
Steve
--
http://www.pbase.com/slo2k
U
Ulysses
Guest
Well, at least that's the position that some of us maintain.
There is no doubt that the F1000 does not exhibit the double-flash for TTL calculation as does the internal flash. It's difficult to imagine the camera incorporating two different methods of TTL acquisition of data necessary for the internal and external flashes.
Ulysses
There is no doubt that the F1000 does not exhibit the double-flash for TTL calculation as does the internal flash. It's difficult to imagine the camera incorporating two different methods of TTL acquisition of data necessary for the internal and external flashes.
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Ulysses
I've heard that Metz has an 707 adapter specially made to mount Metz flashes on 707s, the model is Metz 3602. The adapter has an ACC link to 707, and it does TTL flashes.
Any one has tried that, or tried that on 717?
Any one has tried that, or tried that on 717?
U
Ulysses
Guest
I'm not sure that the ACC port transmits TTL info from the camera. The HVL-F1000 has its own sensor. The only info that is supposed to be transmitted is Low, Normal, High power.
Again, if the flash does not emit a pre-flash, how can it gauge TTL info from the camera? Others who know a bit more about flashes can probably help here.
Ulysses
Again, if the flash does not emit a pre-flash, how can it gauge TTL info from the camera? Others who know a bit more about flashes can probably help here.
--
Ulysses
SJMontante
Active member
I am planning on purchasing the 717 shortly and plan on using my Nikon SB28 flash. I know that I cannot use it as TTL but I can set it manually. Has any one used this flash on the 717? I presume that with a hot shoe that the flash should fire, but are there any incompatibility issues with respect to the flash and camera?
Steve
Steve
Peer Flach
Well-known member
I am doing a little guess work here:
Went to my local camera store and they checked with Bogen (the Metz distributor for U.S.) and they say they do not have it yet. Anyway, it looks to me as far as the F1000 goes that it still fully communicates over the ACC (as opposed to the hotshoe). How else could they offer the same flash for the F707 & F717? So the Metz SCA-3602 should be equally compatible with both cameras.
Metz claims that with the proper adapter you will have TTL. With the above in mind though, how is that possible if the F1000 does indeed not take advantage of TTL (I agree with Ulysses here)? A little uncertainty here for TTL. I am buying an F1000 and will test the adapter, once it becomes available.
Another issue is the problem of the F717 benefitting from a stronger flash. The following is the caution from the lighting guru (a traditional photographer) at my camera store. The F717 only allows F8 (just like the other 5MP cameras I have considered), which puts a range limitation of 30 feet on a regular flash. The F1000 has a guide number of 28. Seem like a perfect match. So could the F717 even benefit from flashes with guide numbers beyond 30? I like the Metz 54-Z3, but have serious doubts about its usefulness.
So, can I pretty much forget professional style equipment?
Mike Fitzgerald
Veteran Member
If you read the table regarding functionality with the 3602 adapter, be careful how you interpret the "TTL" reference. I suspect that aperture setting, as well as user-nominated power, is communicated to a compatible Metz flash, but this setup does not give TTL exposure control.
Mike
Mike
Peer Flach
Well-known member
I have been doing so much reading on F717 related material (flashes, tripods, lenses, filters, bags, backpacks, portable storage), that my head is spinning by now. So both the camera and the flash support TTL exposure correction (as this very vague table puts it), but the adapter does not? Now is it that the camera will simply not use that particlar TTL feature for anything on the ACC, or does the adapter simply not support it?
The chart also mentions flash range indication supported by the combination? Does that mean you could explore the possible physical limitation I mentioned above of 30 feet?
My other gripe is that we can't even use the external flash as an auto-focusing beam.
The chart also mentions flash range indication supported by the combination? Does that mean you could explore the possible physical limitation I mentioned above of 30 feet?
My other gripe is that we can't even use the external flash as an auto-focusing beam.
Mike Fitzgerald
Veteran Member
You're not alone!!!
It's my guess that the table simply recognises each manufacturer's specification in a perfect scenario. The table is essentially the same in its structure for ALL SCA adaper/camera listings, as far as I can see, and you're right about it being vague! The way I read it, it's simply telling us that (1) the flash would be capable of TTL control if the camera were able to talk to it that way, and (2) the F707 is capable of (albeit rough) TTL flash control -- but that seems irrelevant as we know (?) that this only applies to the built-in pop-up flash, not the HVL-F1000.
As Ulysses points out, none of us is 100% sure if, and to what extent, the F7x7 is capable of influencing metered external flash output. All reports seem to indicate that the camera merely tells the flash what aperture and ISO setting are in effect, and the HVL-F1000 then controls its own output accordingly. As I said above, it doesn't do this with a very broad scope, as we know from reports of people having to cover its sensor to obtain adequate output sometimes. Sony has always played the TTL issue with this flash extremely close to its chest, and I'm personally convinced that TTL exposure control is not even partially in place.
Overall I have the feeling that the Metz combination operates, in principle, with the F7x7 exactly as does the HVL-F1000.
As I see it, if the LANC data contain correct info on ISO and aperture and the SCA 3602 correctly reads these, then you should be able to use the most powerful flash in the list of compatible Metz units and expect it to expose properly -- anywhere within its own maximum range for the relevant ISO speed and camera aperture -- using its own sensor.
Maybe, though I'd expect the F7x7's laser assisted focus system to out-perform it anyway.
Mike
ZipperZ
Senior Member
hehehee....you know i still stand by what i have said. And thats only because ive been to Sony and seen the tests myself. Im trying to get some tech white papers on the F1000 and how it interfaces with the 707/717 but until then have a look at these simple tests. If anyone has the 707/717 and the F1000 you may do these tests yourself.
Heres just a normal flash photo taken with the INTERNAL 717 flash.
Heres the same photo but my finger is right in the middle of the frame blocking the auto focus and the TTL sensor. Without a proper TTL metering from the internal sensor the camera fires off a full power flash thus giving you an overexposed shot.
The TTL sensor inside the lens has got to read the pre-flash in order to know how much flash power to use. right! Without a reading the camera has no idea what its looking at so it fires a full flash. If the above 2 photos make sense to you then carry on. If not, do your wn tests first to understand what i just did.
now...
This bottom photo is a flash photo BUT with the F1000.
Heres where it gets interesting.....
This photo is my same finger blocking all the sensors within the 717 lens. Notice the F1000 produced the correct flash exposure! So, heres what ive been told by the Sony tech. When the miniplug is inserted into the 707/717, the TTL info to the camera is now being communicated by the F1000 sensor. The F1000 does everything the internal flash does except preflash. A pre-flash is not a prerequisite for TTL metering and not all TTL flash units require a preflash.
Heres what would happen if i blocked the F1000 sensor. Because its much more powerful than the internal flash its totall white out.
Im in no way trying to convince or prove anyone wrong but until i get additional info from anyone or anywhere else i have to believe what i only know.
--
cheers
Zip
=========================================
http://www.pbase.com/lafalot/i_n_f_r_a_r_e_d
F717 with no symptons what-so-ever!
Sticker Status: on for now
Mike Fitzgerald
Veteran Member
Too many discussions to remember just who said what, but I guess we concur on this! 
Mike
Mike
Sorry but the above does not make sense to me. The F1000 does not have any TTL info to communicate to the 717. It has info from its own built-in exposure sensor but this is not TTL info because TTL info can only come from metering off the exposure sensor in the camera itself. It is believed by many that TTL flash metering is more accurate than metering from the sensor on the flash-gun which is why this is an important distinction to those that care. What you have proved is that the 717 only has TTL flash metering with its built in flash and in this respect it offers less sophisicated support for external flash-guns than some of its competitors.
nashi
I can't see the pics, but agree with what you've done and said. I covered the flash sensor and it blew away the image completely in flash.
I am convinced the internal flash has a TTL metering, but the HVL 1000 external uses it's own sensor and the shutter and apetures to guestimate and work with the scene being photographed.
Here's an image up close and personal with my printer and it exposed very well every single time. However, if I take a picture of my kitchen from a distance, the light colored walls, floor and ceiling cause the auto feature to over expose it. I have to bump down manually almost 1 full stop to achieve a good HVL flash of the kitchen.
Just my thoughts.
tim
I am convinced the internal flash has a TTL metering, but the HVL 1000 external uses it's own sensor and the shutter and apetures to guestimate and work with the scene being photographed.
Here's an image up close and personal with my printer and it exposed very well every single time. However, if I take a picture of my kitchen from a distance, the light colored walls, floor and ceiling cause the auto feature to over expose it. I have to bump down manually almost 1 full stop to achieve a good HVL flash of the kitchen.
Just my thoughts.
tim
U
Ulysses
Guest
Heheheh....
I wanted to leave room in my statements for the possibility. I knew you'd come in to visit this one, my friend.
I'm hoping we get verification on this one way or the other.
I've spoken with folks at Sony USA, too, and they've corroborated my version. So the game is afoot!)
--
Ulysses
I wanted to leave room in my statements for the possibility. I knew you'd come in to visit this one, my friend.
I'm hoping we get verification on this one way or the other.
I've spoken with folks at Sony USA, too, and they've corroborated my version. So the game is afoot!
)--
Ulysses
lisafx
Veteran Member
Glad you took the time to do this and explain your results. I can't see the photos, but I think I understand what you're saying. I have had fits getting the correct exposure with the sony external flash on my S75. Hopefully your info can help me get less overexposed shots.
Lisa
Lisa
hehehee....you know i still stand by what i have said. And thats
only because ive been to Sony and seen the tests myself. Im trying
to get some tech white papers on the F1000 and how it interfaces
with the 707/717 but until then have a look at these simple tests.
If anyone has the 707/717 and the F1000 you may do these tests
yourself.
Heres just a normal flash photo taken with the INTERNAL 717 flash.
Heres the same photo but my finger is right in the middle of the
frame blocking the auto focus and the TTL sensor. Without a proper
TTL metering from the internal sensor the camera fires off a full
power flash thus giving you an overexposed shot.
The TTL sensor inside the lens has got to read the pre-flash in
order to know how much flash power to use. right! Without a reading
the camera has no idea what its looking at so it fires a full
flash. If the above 2 photos make sense to you then carry on. If
not, do your wn tests first to understand what i just did.
now...
This bottom photo is a flash photo BUT with the F1000.
Heres where it gets interesting.....
This photo is my same finger blocking all the sensors within the
717 lens. Notice the F1000 produced the correct flash exposure! So,
heres what ive been told by the Sony tech. When the miniplug is
inserted into the 707/717, the TTL info to the camera is now being
communicated by the F1000 sensor. The F1000 does everything the
internal flash does except preflash. A pre-flash is not a
prerequisite for TTL metering and not all TTL flash units require a
preflash.
Heres what would happen if i blocked the F1000 sensor. Because its
much more powerful than the internal flash its totall white out.
Im in no way trying to convince or prove anyone wrong but until i
get additional info from anyone or anywhere else i have to believe
what i only know.
--
cheers
Zip
=========================================
http://www.pbase.com/lafalot/i_n_f_r_a_r_e_d
F717 with no symptons what-so-ever!
Sticker Status: on for now
U
Ulysses
Guest
Heheheh... all here is as expected.
Can't see the shots, though. But your description is accurate and agrees with my findings.
Wish I could see this shot.now...
This bottom photo is a flash photo BUT with the F1000.
And this is the key area where we disagree. Even our sources seem to disagree, unfortunately. That's what bugs me more than our own statements.
That's all anyone can ask of any man.
I'm sure it will all be clear one way or the other.
At any rate, what we can more practically agree upon (since the TTL issues we could go round and round on) is usage of external flashes and how to get good results. That's all that is the bottom line, regardless of flash method.
--
Ulysses
ZipperZ
Senior Member
: )
its all so confusing at times. Its hard enough trying to understand a Japanese fellow with a thick accen trying to speak english and explain how it works.
Its still anyones guess and im still not completely sure it works as described. I could try the same test with my Nikon F3 and metz 45CT4 flash and see how that works but it will take time as i dont have film or a scanner to show. What is film anyways??? Someone tells me its a thin coating of grime thats on your kitchen windows.I've spoken with folks at Sony USA, too, and they've corroborated
my version. So the game is afoot!
--
cheers
Zip
=========================================
http://www.pbase.com/lafalot/i_n_f_r_a_r_e_d
F717 with no symptons what-so-ever!
Sticker Status: on for now
ZipperZ
Senior Member
U
Ulysses
Guest
I know it's still early in the day, but....
Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!©
--
Ulysses
This has GOT to be my candidate for funniest post of the day!
Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!©
--
Ulysses
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