winedarksea
Senior Member
Words slip & slide--they never stay the same--even in French, although the French Academy makes a valiant effort to freeze them.
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Dulaney
A700; SAL 50 f1.4; SAL 18-250; CZ 85 f1.4
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Why are folks trying to call everything in the world DSLR?
- Thread starter WaltKnapp
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Dulaney
A700; SAL 50 f1.4; SAL 18-250; CZ 85 f1.4
Glenn
Veteran Member
small niggle SL in DSLR means single lens yes. but it really means the taking elns and viewing lens are the same one. This might be ibmportant as you folks wittle down the definition because on the NEX it might not necessarily be true. In 3D the taking lens and viewing lens are the same but the picture that results was never seen though the lens because it was a composite and never actually existed at any one point in time.
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WaltKnapp
Forum Pro
Wikipedia has a fairly good discussion on this and subjects related to it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_single-lens_reflex_camera
Walt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_single-lens_reflex_camera
Walt
WaltKnapp
Forum Pro
Thanks for the award, though I think your post deserves it !
Walt
Walt
winedarksea
Senior Member
You have a good point there, ZeevK. Technical terms tend to have shorter lifespans than other words in the language, precisely because their meaning is stipulated. When technology moves on, it is time to come up with a new term. Ordinary words, on the other hand, slip, slide, morph with time, and carry with them the wonderful store of connotations & associations that make language in the hands of a literary artist so powerful--something that is not possible with technical terms.
So my conclusion is: we need a new term for a broader category, which would include dslrs as a subcategory.
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Dulaney
A700; SAL 50 f1.4; SAL 18-250; CZ 85 f1.4
Mike Fewster
Forum Pro
And we would have liked to have had a forum where mirror slr owners (and many own both now) could have discussed the pros and cons as the models develop. But you worked real hard to close that off Walt.
As a PS, I note from the news this morning that Canon has announced that they are developing a small slr system, but didn't say whether or not it would be a mirror model
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Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia
Not so much in technical terms.
Why are you sticking up for this "anything we want to call dslr is a dslr"?
What is your agenda or is this all just a matter of "lets not hurt anyone's feeling by telling them they don't have a dslr?"
Why are you sticking up for this "anything we want to call dslr is a dslr"?
What is your agenda or is this all just a matter of "lets not hurt anyone's feeling by telling them they don't have a dslr?"
Bruce Oudekerk
Veteran Member
to quote Wiki:
"A digital single-lens reflex camera (digital SLR or DSLR) is a digital camera that uses a mechanical mirror system and pentaprism to direct light from the lens to an optical viewfinder on the back of the camera."
I often play the devils advocate but this is unequivocally nonsense, even if you disagree with my past arguments. There are numerous dSLRs that EVERYONE agrees are such and use pentamirrors not pentaprisms. And of course I’m also assuming that the digital single lens reflex is a subset of single lens reflex cameras. There used to be many professional 35mm SLRs and some medium format SLRs with removable finders that have no “prism” at all and use ground glass screens to view. They were very common on TLRs of course. None of these were on the back of the camera. The only thing here that is debatable from my standpoint is that a ‘mechanical mirror system’ is a necessity. It seems that ‘Everyone’ states that reflex is synonymous with reflect and that is where I take exception. I don’t believe that to be true and most dictionaries seem to agree. However language is mutable. What something means now does not have to be what its original intent was and thus I am entirely open to utilizing the term dSLR in what is considered a conventional meaning. For thirty years I taught 'SLR' as requiring a mirror and only now am I considering that I was technically in error although not from a practical standpoint.
I’ve tried to think of an example of something that modern technology has made a conventional descriptive term obsolete because its original nomenclature was faulty. I believe the word “camera” originally meant ‘vaulted room’. And the Camera Obscura (or darkened room) often used mirrors to flip the image into the proper orientation. I won’t even go there regarding whether those 18th century devices are SLRs. LOL In modern automobiles the twin clutch gearbox is in fact a true automatic transmission even though to most, ‘clutch’ and ‘gearbox’ implies manual. If argued otherwise then the term automatic transmission comes under scrutiny. We tend to use terms in the vernacular indiscriminately. In the States if I ask for a Kleenex, I really mean facial tissue. And in this part of the East coast, if someone asks for a Coke, often they mean a cola beverage. You can argue my examples, but the fact is that common usage almost always supersedes technically correct usage and eventually it IS technically correct. I suspect this is what Walt and others are really saying. A dog is a dog and calling it a canine does not make it less of a dog. I might even be right about the reflex thing…probably am historically. That doesn’t make the term dSLR any less descriptive or less succinct even if I argue it such.
And FWIW, IMO no other camera configuration is even in the remote ballpark to the functionality of a good ‘dSLR’ although in all probability that will eventually change. That is not snobbery or elitism, just pragmatically realistic.
Bruce
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Bruce Oudekerk
Veteran Member
Agreed, except...maybe…probably…sort of…about the ‘R’ part. I know I’m being picky but the R stands for reflex not reflect and I believe there are subtle differences. But even if I am technically correct, and I believe I am, it probably doesn’t matter. Just like RADIO can not technically exist on the internet…but obviously it does. Read my response to Walt.
Bruce
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WaltKnapp
Forum Pro
I agree, it was something strange in their otherwise good discussion. In terms of naming (but not in terms of quality of OVF) I consider either pentaprism or pentamirror equipped DSLR/SLR to be DSLRs.
One can make a huge deal about this error in the article, or just take the standard way of looking at that which is the optical reflections involved which are the same between mirror and prism. The light loss is just greater in the mirror because of more transitions in the medium the light passes through. Why the mirrors are less preferred than prisms.
It's also interesting that Wiki uses the new type HDSLR for a DSLR that also does video. Simple way to distinguish the two subtypes.
Walt
Mike Fewster
Forum Pro
Well, you might like to read the explanation I gave on the "System Cameras" and classification" thread. Nope, nobody wants to call anything a dslr
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Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia
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Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia
DSLR only implies that light from the single lens is reflected - it does not say anything about whether that light is reflected to an ovf or a sensor which supplies an image to an evf (or even an lcd).
Pellicle mirror single lens cams are still DSLRs.
Unless one agrees with Walt that a DSLR is a specific fixed configuration, with DOF preview, MLU, and OVF, no Liveview, no tilting LCDs, no Video, no fast LV autofocus, no AF during Video(which wouldn't matter since his ideal DSLR doesn't have Video anyway).
We should start a petition to immedaitely cease all Sony "DSLR" development, they must simply bring the A700 back into production, indefinitely, to keep users like Walt happy.
Innovation = bad, mkay.
Pellicle mirror single lens cams are still DSLRs.
Unless one agrees with Walt that a DSLR is a specific fixed configuration, with DOF preview, MLU, and OVF, no Liveview, no tilting LCDs, no Video, no fast LV autofocus, no AF during Video(which wouldn't matter since his ideal DSLR doesn't have Video anyway).
We should start a petition to immedaitely cease all Sony "DSLR" development, they must simply bring the A700 back into production, indefinitely, to keep users like Walt happy.
Innovation = bad, mkay.
I remember the Nex being in the now defunct Sony Alpha Forum, but don't recall it being in the Sony DSLR forum??
While I completely agree that DSLR should only refer to a Digital camera that has a single taking and viewing lens and a mirror - I think the term itself DSLR is rather quaint and should be replaced (not the camera, the term).
We no longer refer to our televisions as COLOR TV. Why? Because color TV's are the norm so we just say TV. So too the "D" in DSLR has diminishing value. Soon we will have cameras, and film cameras. Digital will be assumed.
The SL in SLR was meant to distinguish it from rangefinders and Twin Lens cameras etc. While those cameras are still around SL is the norm.
So while DSLR still has meaning as does COLOR tv and SOLID STATE radio' and ELECTRONIC calculator, etc. a more useful term might be -- reflex camera -- or something else to be determined...
bONGO
Kodakrevisited
Veteran Member
I agree...I mean ..WTF ???, there are surely more important things to worry about arent there ?
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tompower53
Veteran Member
of the image is insignificant only the fact that a reflex mirror is used or not?
I think what the other side is arguing is that they don't care if there is a mirror or not - only what the camera can produce and the size of the kit to carry around.
They want near or equal to DSLR quality but like a smaller lighter package that they can carry around easier - thus will be able to carry it around more often.
To them the actual mechanics of the camera are secondary. Is that such a bad thing?
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tom power
I think what the other side is arguing is that they don't care if there is a mirror or not - only what the camera can produce and the size of the kit to carry around.
They want near or equal to DSLR quality but like a smaller lighter package that they can carry around easier - thus will be able to carry it around more often.
To them the actual mechanics of the camera are secondary. Is that such a bad thing?
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tom power
dr jim
Veteran Member
Would someone point me to the threads where all these nefarious types are referring to their phone cameras as DSLR's? I just haven't seen it. I have seen multiple threads discussing the subject of nomenclature for the new mirrorless cameras. Both here and on the m43 forum. I don't think anybody sees or pretends that the NEX cameras are DSLR's. Is the inference that the Sony bodies with live view are not DSLR's? What about all the Canikon bodies with live view? Please explain where the line is.
Frankly, I could care less what anybody chooses to call their camera. It affects me not at all. All I care about is the IQ and functionality of the system, like Tom said. It's just semantics. As the Bard said, "What's in a name?"
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Just for fun!
Jim
Frankly, I could care less what anybody chooses to call their camera. It affects me not at all. All I care about is the IQ and functionality of the system, like Tom said. It's just semantics. As the Bard said, "What's in a name?"
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Just for fun!
Jim
PeteGanzel
Senior Member
Bruce Oudekerk
Veteran Member
More important? Quite frankly there are virtually a limitless number of items that are more important than anything discussed in these forums. But in terms of Alpha cameras, Walt’s thread is as cogent as they come. I can’t speak to his agenda but his question centers around ‘what is a dSLR?’ That is extremely valid. I admit that my position is reasonably radical but neither you nor Walt need to agree with me, you don’t even need to think that I’m making any sort of sensible point, you don’t even need to read the tread much less comment about its validity but Walt certainly has a right to question what our definition of a these cameras is and to get it in the open to discuss it without fear of derision.
And we might as well discuss it now because the waters are going to get even more muddy shortly. For instance; we all know that optical viewfinders are likely coming in waves (or should know) and if for no other reason than open displays as they exist today are terrible in bright sunlight. Many will not put up with that. What should we call a camera that functions EXACTLY like one of Walt’s dSLRs but has an electronic viewfinder instead of an optical viewfinder, especially if that viewfinder received its image from a mirror that flips up and redirected its image to another sensor/electronic viewfinder. That might be cheaper than a pentamirror setup and or it might allow continuous viewing with video and stills and still use phase detect on stills. One lens+mirror…is that a dSLR? I really don’t know what the consensus would be but there would be a LOT of discussion.
NONE of this is a threat to the NEX. It’s clearly the other way around. Many people’s needs will be nicely met with the NEX and they will not purchase a dSLR. I looked at a NEX5 today at Best Buy. I love my a850 dSLR and the NEX would not be my ‘go to’ camera but it might very well be my ‘carry all’ camera. What ever that means. Sounds good
Bruce
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I find Walt has made an accusation of a general behaviour that is nowhere as prevalent as he seems to find it.
There is a general confusion in the marketplace itself about what to call things.
There is a lower level of general confusion here.
Terms like 'EVIL' (that I also think are kind of stupid) are used for the NeX series, and this site is about DP in general, not about SLRs.
Most of the people in this particular DSLR forum are here because they own at least one DSLR, and may also be interested in talking about other DP gear including NeX.
W
There is a general confusion in the marketplace itself about what to call things.
There is a lower level of general confusion here.
Terms like 'EVIL' (that I also think are kind of stupid) are used for the NeX series, and this site is about DP in general, not about SLRs.
Most of the people in this particular DSLR forum are here because they own at least one DSLR, and may also be interested in talking about other DP gear including NeX.
W
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