Bye Bye S90!

This post is ONLY my personal opinion, but I think that someone who had a tz7/lx3 before can share some of my opinions.

Yes, I print my photos, I recently professionally printed 300 photos 5 inch x XX and no real difference in quality between compact cameras (ixus 850is, ixus 400, s90, tz7, tz65, ixus 870is, f100fd, lx3), only the 450d + 28 1.8 clearly show it's DOF/DR supremacy.

This post in only focused in the pleasure of use a tool to take pictures, is really subjective and I'm only a designer that like photography and sometime works with good professional photographers.

I was initially impressed by the low light capabilities of the s90 and I re-bought it after I saw the better LR3 performance with the s90 raw files.

I also have a tz65 now. I really loved my old LX3 but I sold it thinking to buy one day the gf1+20 1.7 for even better quality and the "fixed lens photography simplicity", the portability of the lx3 is the ONLY limit I can give to that little jewel, not that different from a gf1 for portability, only a little bigger bag.

The story is that I haven't used the tz65 more since I have the s90 and yesterday I took it back out to take some shots.

After 5 minutes of usage this were my thoughts:

• why pana feel so much solid compared to a camera that is targeted and priced much higher? Even my old ixus 850 IS was in another construction category!!!
• why s90 focus speed is so slow compared to a compact superzoom?
• why the pana is SO MUCH responsive of a top class canon compact.
• why the pana zoom is SO MUCH smooth and fast
• why the IS in the pana seems to be so much effective.
• why every button in the pana IS METAL and you can actually feel that you have done something and in the s90 they are so tricky to feel. (the control ring and the rear wheel are too much slow and imprecise for my taste)
• why pana let me set the max iso, so I can set max iso 400, and forget it and canon don't? I remember that also my 450d does not let me do this but I know finally the 550d can.
• why pana is so faster at the long end given the 3x s90's reach.

and when I download the photo:

• why pana jpg looks "better" than s90 at normal view?
• why s90 RAW picture after a lot of LR3 PP look better/little sharper than the lumix ones ONLY in the CENTER of the frame and the rest 50% of the picture is MUCH cleaner in the tz65 files?
• why CANON, the BIG CANON, uses a sony sensor that rally is nothing special?
• why when I want tou use the s90 as a fast snapshot machine in P (not auto) mode and bright sunlight (I always use aperture priority couse it limit the iso to 800 when in Auto mode) it always select a high aperture and I need to correct it to not see that diffraction-destruction? Panasonic ALWAYS select the smaller possible aperture and I think it is right with this small sensor camera that do not have real DOF, did you saw an f8 s90 picture? It looks worst than a 50euros camera, diffraction completely destroy the image, I think it is usable only up the f5.6. DOF doesn't exist in this compact cameras, is the f2 wide open macro shot what we mean for DOF? Every small camera can do that! (try a tz at 300mm, macro focus, a subject at 3mt, wide open and It magically will do something the s90 will never be able to).
• why a canon raw is only "marginally" better than jpgs? with an lx3 the RAW show you the beauty of this file format.. Onestly, no way a s90 raw can compare to lx3 raw! Try a night shot with tripod iso 80 with both, I've tried and the lx3 looks like a dslr compared to s90 for details and clarity.
• why on the raw files only the center is detailed and the rest of the picture is like not properly focussed, I don't know how canon can correct it in jpg, but they do.

These consideration are not for comparison, but the tz65 helped me focalize why I never liked that much this new canon top-compact! "Feel" is better than "I think" in this case for me. If you don't read them as comparison all the point are the same in what the s90 fail.

Ps I already have on the s90 the custom grip and I solved the rear wheel problem.

I really would like to feel in love with this s90 but I think I will sell it for the secong and last time!

I know that many of you really love the s90, but I feel it as a "beta-version" camera, "good ideas" not properly or too much fast developed, finished with a really mediocre lens. I hope that canon will make something better next time.if yes, I will buy it.

I'm tired of the manufacturers High iso-war, for "some" low light shot I'm not able to miss the normal light capabilities.

too much words, some pictures.. processed as I like them..

S90





TZ65 (the color are much more similar to reality)





lx3 jpg night shot





TZ65 DOF (minimal but possible at 3 mt distance!)





S90 f.8 iso 80 picture! default jpg

ZZZZZZZZZ

As a past TZ7 and FZ38 owner im glad my S90 doesn't produce loads of purple areas and lens flare right in the middle of the shot at the merest hint of bright sunlight.

I liked my Lumix camera but found so many times that my shots were ruined because the sensor (or lens) didn't like very bright sunlight hitting the lens.

I did find that full auto was better than my S90, especially with flash but then full auto wasnt why i got the S90.

No, im my experience (as a causal shooter) i dont regret getting rid of the panasnoic cameras.

--
Dave.

Gallery @
http://davepearce.smugmug.com
S90 Shots @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/davebass5/sets/72157622647970370/
FZ38 Shots @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/davebass5/sets/72157623847343904/

Videos @ http://www.vimeo.com/user464364/videos

Love the sample shots of pana Tz and LX3 in particular

minzaw

--



Sunrise at Royal Lake Rangoon Burma

http://www.flickr.com/photos/myanmarmauk

Dave, I've bought the s90 for the same you reason, but manual control on this little cameras are not like dslr for me. I used Aperture priority on S90 only to be sure the aperture is the lowest possible and to lock the iso to 800 max.

Fixing the shutter speed, iso and wb I think is a great thing in tz cameras and let me take shot like this, impossible without that function..





for me manual control have to be supported by sensor/lens quality, exactly like the lx3, take a look to this raw..

Thank you for the honest reply to that situation.
From people like you we can really hear which camera is better.

However ,did you try to replace this S90 - maybe the lens is faulty?

Also ,if you buy another similar camera (like the EX1) ,I'll be glad to hear what you think of this camera.

I also think that camera-companies can do MUCH BETTER to supply a really compact camera ,with much superior results - aimed to the pro/semi-pro users.

Thank you

hi regis,

This is my second s90, no third in the future, about ex1, same sensor = no Ex1 for me.. and it is an lx3 clone, the important is the sensor not the screen (that on the lx3 war the first real very good screen on a compact, my 450 was terrible compared).

Looking at how are the tendency I bet lx3 will remain the best performance compact made (if u can accept the "not rel compact" that exclused me). They are all trying to beat it (10 mp, f2 lens, good display, vintage look etc)

I don't think I can say if a camera is better than another, I'm not qualified for this, I totally jumped the analog photography and the digital world is so inconsistent and fast in some way... way too fast! We are here speaking about "nothing", but sometimes it is funny

But I like technology, as many on this forum, and as designer I tend to think "why they didn't change this particular thing" to make the product better. Exactly like the front control ring in the s90. It was a good idea to use it as zoom,or aperture, but it is unusable for me, it miss precision and responsiveness. exactly like the rear wheel! Probably spending some more month on the lens development were out of commercial programs, but canon makes such beautiful lenses and bodies I can't think this is the better they can do!

sbjct said:

Dave, I've bought the s90 for the same you reason, but manual control on this little cameras are not like dslr for me. I used Aperture priority on S90 only to be sure the aperture is the lowest possible and to lock the iso to 800 max.

Click to expand...

Exactly how i use mine 99% fo the time, fo rthe same reason.

sbjct said:

Fixing the shutter speed, iso and wb I think is a great thing in tz cameras and let me take shot like this, impossible without that function..

Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean by that. If you mean being able to set the slowest shutter speed then yes, thats a great feature.

I shoot Raw 100% fo rthe time (my main camera is a 40D) so Wb isnt a problem for me.

I did think the Limix colours were nice though. My FZ38 also shot Raw but side by side the S90 Raw files seemed so much cleaner (of course).

I doubt i could get shots like these with my old TZ7



This is shot at ISO1600.



I guess each camera has its plus points, for me the S90 had more for what i needed.

Dave.

Gallery @
http://davepearce.smugmug.com
S90 Shots @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/davebass5/sets/72157622647970370/
FZ38 Shots @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/davebass5/sets/72157623847343904/

Videos @ http://www.vimeo.com/user464364/videos

Very interesting and seems to me very true. There are a lot of S90 complains here and your analysis corresponds with them. I can fell too that S90 and G11 are kind of beta versions and I don't want to pay for such camera and I don't want to be a beta tester and spend my money for it. I'm tired with Canon marketing policy too. We pay for their faults and some of these faults are simple stupid, like famous rear wheel. Many users have to fix it and Canon's only reaction is silence.

I think that "manufacturers High iso-war" is partialy forced by users because they love to take pics in the dark .
But generally we are waiting for the next not beta version but real camera.
--
Best regards, swnw.

sbjct said:

I know that many of you really love the s90, but I feel it as a "beta-version" camera, "good ideas" not properly or too much fast developed, finished with a really mediocre lens. I hope that canon will make something better next time.if yes, I will buy it.

Click to expand...

I agree with you about the "beta-version" aspect of the s90. There are things I like about it, particularly the size, but little I love about it except the image quality, which is important.

Still, each time I pick up the s90 I think how much better it could have been and I kind of resent that I've had to put extras such as the grip and the Lensmate control wheel device to get it working better (though I'm grateful for the innovative people who made the devices available). I can live with the flash but it can be annoying.

I've owned at least 5 SD cameras and they were a pleasure to hold an use, though lacked the higher ISO capability of the s90. I've owned lots of other digital cameras as well and think I know when one has good ergonomics.

I loaned my s90 to my daughter for her class reunion this weekend and was embarrassed having explaining some of the quirks. I, of course, put it in full auto mode.

I've thought many times about selling the s90 but there is nothing in it's class in such a small package. But I'm patiently waiting for a replacement whether it be by Pany or Canon.

Until then, despite it's flaws, the s90 goes with me everywhere.

--
gail ~ http://www.pbase.com/gailb

My Canon s90 BLOG: http://www.digicamhelp.com/camera-logs/canon-s90/canon-s90-first-impressions/

OK ,so S90 is not for you.

Companies CAN make a very good compact cameras,but none made the correct combination:

For example ,take the Ricoh GX100 (it was before the LX3) - it had a very good interface ,was responsive ,and small.

Sure enough ,the Ricoh GX200 was faster ,but it suffered from the "too much pixels in small sensor" issue.

The closest camera for me was the Fuji F200EXR - it was compact enough ,and had a unique advantage (high DR for highlights) ,but it "fell" due to its poor interface (why no histogram?).

If you want a "super compact" ,you can take the interface and speed of GX200 ,put it on something like the F200 ,and you have a very good camera.

Of course ,to achieve a good high-ISO performance ,make a bigger sensor,with fewer MP (6-7MP should be suitable).

I'm sure that this kind of camera (especially with high-quality bright lens - whenever possible) would have been a best-seller ,and many users would have paid more than 700$ for it.

The problem is ,that companies became too greedy - they've always preferred the short-range profit over users-satisfaction ,but these years it became worse:

They just thought how they can "milk" us by supplying a propriety-systems ,with different standards of lens and accessories (how many out there?) ,instead of supplying us 1 small camera with a decent sensor,lens and interface.

I hope that some day ,one of the companies would seize the opportunity.

gail said:

I've owned at least 5 SD cameras and they were a pleasure to hold an use, though lacked the higher ISO capability of the s90. I've owned lots of other digital cameras as well and think I know when one has good ergonomics.

Click to expand...

My S90 replaced my Fuji 40fd which also had a relatively large 1/1.7 sensor...now compared to the Fuji, the Canon has wonderful ergonomics and controls. It's definitely an improvement and I cannot find a better pocketable camera at this point in time.

I personally think the "issues" with this camera have been way overblown.

--
Don
http://www.pbase.com/dond

Don_D said:

My S90 replaced my Fuji 40fd which also had a relatively large 1/1.7 sensor...now compared to the Fuji, the Canon has wonderful ergonomics and controls. It's definitely an improvement

Click to expand...

In my opinion and experience, I'm not surprised. The ergonomics and/or menu system are certainly not Fujifilms strong points!

Don_D said:

I personally think the "issues" with this camera have been way overblown.

Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree, as others do also including many reviewers.

--
gail ~ http://www.pbase.com/gailb

My Canon s90 BLOG: http://www.digicamhelp.com/camera-logs/canon-s90/canon-s90-first-impressions/

S90 is a better camera than any current Panasonic compact. Optics and sensor are most important thing. Forgetting anything about high ISO (you should use a DSLR for speed and high ISO) it has a cleaner image production than any compact from other companies.

Maybe you have been unlucky with the samples you purchase but tests bear out it is still the top dog for now. What each person can get out of a camera is personal and his opinion of this is subjective, what a camera is truly capable of is not up to opinions and guessing because sensors and lenses are systematically evaluated.

Controls and size are preferences, colors can be tweaked in camera, a lot of people frustrated when a camera doesn't make everything easy for them out the box.

Panasonic has not truly made a good, all-around sensor...ever. They always compromise and try to use the processor tricks to clean up afterwards. It is the same for compacts and their micro 4/3 cameras. Digital cameras, sensor is obviously very important...who cares about this button or that button or a few more 10ths of a second for focus.

LX3 successor has been developing for awhile and should be very good but for now the top dog is still S90 in stores today. Subjective opinions being thrown away.

IchiroCameraGuy said:

S90 is a better camera than any current Panasonic compact. Optics and sensor are most important thing. Forgetting anything about high ISO (you should use a DSLR for speed and high ISO) it has a cleaner image production than any compact from other companies.

Click to expand...

Sorry, i think it is not true, the lx3 is way batter in any aspect, ergonomics, interface and for sure image quality.. And not a "beta version", only problem is that it need a small bag.. It is also 2 years old!
At base iso also the f100fd and i hope f200 thqt I will try are way sharper..

Is there someone who have s90 and f200exr that can tell me his impressions?

sbjct said:

At base iso also the f100fd and i hope f200 thqt I will try are way sharper..

Click to expand...

Well, I loved my f100fd, but no way would I say it comes close to the S90 for anything, including 'sharpness'. I really wonder if you don't have a bad sample. it's a shame you've had a bad experience.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/david_goold/

I suggest that you also ask in Fuji's forum.

Good luck

Here we are.. Stupid photo, but very bright sunlight and some shadow plus green foliage!

s90 default maximum quality jpg
tz65 default maximum quality jpg
s90 raw processed files

Use your program to campare them side by side.

to me:

• I don't see this great cleaner image by the bigger sensor of the s90
• where are this beautiful detail of this fabulous f.2 lens?
• Look the entire image till the corners, no way s90 can compare to leica lens!!
• the s90 RAW processed is little bit sharper "only in the center" but for sure noisier, more noise reduction will smear the plus details.
• Leica lens is no doubt more even in performance

And here is the beginning of the post,

Clearly above iso 400 there is no contest here, the s90 do better, the problem is that when I have a beautifull light I'm not that happy that a euro 450 camera do nothing better if not worst than a 2.33 sensor based camera.

ps

for s90 owners, from the raw and the jpg above, please let me know if you think my camera is a bad one. I will send it to canon for repair.

for the comparative sample shot TZ65 is much much better IMHO

minzaw

--



Sunrise at Royal Lake Rangoon Burma

http://www.flickr.com/photos/myanmarmauk