I'd like a G1 on steroids please!

photodog25

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Now that the Panasonic G series has been well received, I thinks it's time for someone to build a reasonably priced mirror-less camera with a larger-than-ff sensor. This camera, if made with the same attention to quality, compactness, lightweight, and price as the G1, would appeal to many people who now chose the expensive full-frame sensor cameras of N, C, and S. Here's what I would like:

+sensor size of 40x30mm or thereabouts (44x33, 49x36.8, etc)

+weather-sealed body that houses the above sensor. This body would need to be bigger to accommodate the larger sensor and the seals for added robustness.

+contrast-detect AF like in the G series is perfectly OK for those applications where focus speed is not critical. The AF system should be fast enough to focus on moving toddlers, for example, but not birds in flight.

+large, bright, clear, electronic viewfinder, of similar or better quality than the EVF in the G1/2 camera, obviously enlarged for the new format.

+camera should have decently large pixels for great low light capability and be about 40MP.

+priced under $1400 for body, under $2000 for kit lens of similar (high) image quality and range of the G1's 14-45mm zoom.

+high quality primes with (35mm) equivalent focal lengths of 24 - 40 - 70. Focus should be on size at the expense of lens speed. However, I think the 40mm (equivalent) lens could be made small and f2.8.

For those of you who think this camera and lens system cannot be done, I would urge you to look at the Hasselblad XPAN lenses. Those lenses were very high quality and tiny (although admittedly slow - f4).

The IQ of this system would absolutely blow away ff cameras and be a similar in cost to the least expensive ff cameras. It would take away much sales from those cash cows ff cameras of N&C. Leica would not be happy either .

Would you guys buy this? I certainly would. Would Panasonic build it? I do not think N or C would build it for too much fear of upsetting their own full-frame DSLR lineup. However, I think the dominance of DSLR's is going to be diminished over the next few years.
 
[Tim "The Tool Man" Grunt] ;)

Your dream camera sounds awesome; unfortunately it would be out of my price range!

--
Kim
Panasonic ZS3
Panasonic G1 + 2 kit lenses
Panasonic FZ30
Raynox 150 & 250
ProMaster 3.5/100 macro 'plastic fantastic'
Olympus FL-36

If everything happens for a reason, what's the reason?!
http://flickr.com/photos/kaw209
 
And you want the body only for $1400? Not $2400 or more for a sensor bigger than FF?
You will have to wait for another decade,I think. But it is feasible, I think
--
DSC-R1, DMC-G1(14-45)
 
Now that the Panasonic G series has been well received, I thinks it's time for someone to build a reasonably priced mirror-less camera with a larger-than-ff sensor. This camera, if made with the same attention to quality, compactness, lightweight, and price as the G1, would appeal to many people who now chose the expensive full-frame sensor cameras of N, C, and S. Here's what I would like:

+sensor size of 40x30mm or thereabouts (44x33, 49x36.8, etc)

+weather-sealed body that houses the above sensor. This body would need to be bigger to accommodate the larger sensor and the seals for added robustness.

+contrast-detect AF like in the G series is perfectly OK for those applications where focus speed is not critical. The AF system should be fast enough to focus on moving toddlers, for example, but not birds in flight.

+large, bright, clear, electronic viewfinder, of similar or better quality than the EVF in the G1/2 camera, obviously enlarged for the new format.

+camera should have decently large pixels for great low light capability and be about 40MP.

+priced under $1400 for body, under $2000 for kit lens of similar (high) image quality and range of the G1's 14-45mm zoom.
This reads like a joke.

I'd like this too, only I think it should only cost $50 and should be the size of a credit card.
--
-Jay

http://flickr.com/photos/48504267@N00/
 
Sounds like a great idea. Fast contrast AF on a MF would be great - no more problems with AF focus calibration issues.

I think the pricing is aay off though, at least for the foreseeable future. Something along the lines of 5-10x that would be more likely considering the cost of just a FF+ sensor and higher resolution viewfinders, beefier processing pipeline for 40mp images, etc.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cftarnas/
 
Would you guys buy this? I certainly would. Would Panasonic build it? I do not think N or C would build it for too much fear of upsetting their own full-frame DSLR lineup. However, I think the dominance of DSLR's is going to be diminished over the next few years.
Medium format digital backs start at $10,000, and the 40MP ones are around $30,000. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to manufacture large sensors like that? $1,500 wouldn't even cover the cost of scraps and wastage. They're also very slow because of the processing power required to manipulate, record, and transmit all those pixels. And what would stop FF camera makers from using the same technology and selling it for $150 each?

Would I buy one at that price? Sure. Is it even beyond the realm of sillyness to hope for something like what you're proposing? Absolutely. But kudos for being creative.
 
Hey, thanks for your constructive post. Perhaps the pricing is too aggressive, but Panasonic makes it's own sensors, does it not?

What if Panasonic would build a 36 x 27mm sensor (basically doubling the current 4/3 in each dimension)? The area would increase by 4x. You can certainly put 4X the pixels on the camera by keeping the same pixel density as the current 12MP sensor, but I would opt for larger pixels to reduce noise. Putting in 36MP would mean that that each pixel can be 33% larger which would help lower the high ISO noise.

Now, does my $1400 (body) and $2000 (kit) seem more doable? With a sensor size this large (slightly bigger than 35mm) the IQ will be be comparable to full-frame and the camera should be smaller than a full-frame DSLR that has to accommodate the flipping mirror. I can see this as a very popular model for those photographers that are not interested in the fastest AF speeds but want less bulk, weight, accurate AF and very high IQ.

Nick
Sounds like a great idea. Fast contrast AF on a MF would be great - no more problems with AF focus calibration issues.

I think the pricing is aay off though, at least for the foreseeable future. Something along the lines of 5-10x that would be more likely considering the cost of just a FF+ sensor and higher resolution viewfinders, beefier processing pipeline for 40mp images, etc.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cftarnas/
 
Well, all of those extreme premium prices are about to change. Pentax has just released (in Japan) a 33x44mm DSLR 40MP camera on a robust weather sealed body that is estimated to be around $9000. A DSLR is much more complicated a beast than a mirrorless camera.

See my 2nd post where I scaled back the sensor size. The Sony full-frame A850 is under $2000. Do you think S is losing money on each of these? I don't think so, especially since they make the sensors!

Also, fast operation is not necessary. I think 2fps would be speedy! The FF camera manufacturers (except S perhaps) are making a premium on each camera. Remember that N&C will try to defend their "cash cow" as much as they can and resist lowering the prices as much as they can.

I thank you for your opinion. Only time will tell.

.
Medium format digital backs start at $10,000, and the 40MP ones are around $30,000. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to manufacture large sensors like that? $1,500 wouldn't even cover the cost of scraps and wastage. They're also very slow because of the processing power required to manipulate, record, and transmit all those pixels. And what would stop FF camera makers from using the same technology and selling it for $150 each?

Would I buy one at that price? Sure. Is it even beyond the realm of sillyness to hope for something like what you're proposing? Absolutely. But kudos for being creative.
 
Well, all of those extreme premium prices are about to change. Pentax has just released (in Japan) a 33x44mm DSLR 40MP camera on a robust weather sealed body that is estimated to be around $9000. A DSLR is much more complicated a beast than a mirrorless camera.
Well I replied to your first post. I'm still not sure how you're expecting to go from $9000 to $1500 by simply removing the mirror mechanism (not, mirrorless cameras are NOT that much less complex than mirrored cameras). Even the $2000 Sony FF would cost more than your larger-sensor $1500 camera.

Moreover, are you simply considering costs, or price? One has little to do with the other generally speaking.
 
I gave you the price of the Pentax 645D to make you aware that the cost of medium format was coming down, not as justification for the camera that I would like to see. I am well aware of companies desire to keep the ASP (average selling price) for a particular model as high as possible. I also understand that the price of the camera may not be related to the cost, but it is mostly a desire for greater profits for an product that does not have much competition. Usually, selling price remains high unless another company puts out a competing product.

The $2K Sony A850 will set the bar for full-frame DSLRs (or EVILs) and all makers will try to compete with that on price or features. A mirror-less camera is much simpler than a DSLR - no mirror, no focusing sensors as the focusing is done on the data from the sensor in software. No large optical viewfinder either, but it is not clear to me how much a good EVF costs compared to a good OVF. Anyone know? Also, for a DSLR, the manufacturing tolerances need to very tight in order to have AF be accurate relative to what the AF sensor sees and relative to the path through the optical system to the viewfinder so that manual focusing is accurate. I think Panasonic or Sony is in a unique position to challenge the full-frame dominance by building a near full-framed mirror-less camera in the same style as a G1. The camera, at a minimum will incorporate a larger sensor, larger lcd, and larger EVF. Panasonic or Sony can definitely pull this off.

Many people on this forum have applauded Panasonic and Olympus for developing the m43 standard to produce quality, lightweight, flexible cameras that are challenging APS-C DSLR in quality. What I would like to see is a quality mirrorless camera that produces comparable or better IQ than today's full-frame cameras DSLR at lower cost, weight, and bulk.

Nick
Well I replied to your first post. I'm still not sure how you're expecting to go from $9000 to $1500 by simply removing the mirror mechanism (not, mirrorless cameras are NOT that much less complex than mirrored cameras). Even the $2000 Sony FF would cost more than your larger-sensor $1500 camera.

Moreover, are you simply considering costs, or price? One has little to do with the other generally speaking.
 
What I would like to see is a quality mirrorless camera that produces comparable or better IQ than today's full-frame cameras DSLR at lower cost, weight, and bulk.
That has nothing to do with having a FF or larger sensor. We're nearly there with the GH1 sensor, so in a few generations we'll be there with improved sensor and processor technologies. THAT solution can happen for your $1500 price point, and it's something I want as well. Had you just said that, and not gone into needing some huge sensor that would bring with it large lenses and non-sensical pricing, it would have been a different discussion.
 
The GH1 sensor is too small and doesn't compete well with FF cameras. I want a large sensor mirror-less built in the same style as a G1 for a reasonable price. I think we will see the $1500 barrier broken in the next 2 years by a mirror-less body most likely. We shall see what Photokina brings this September.
 

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