Return 5D2 because of Low Iso Banding

they are not vilified for wanting more ( I would like more DR in my next camera) they are shot down because the effects they are seeing are self inflicted not down to the camera.
seriously stop talking so much rubbish. applying 3 stops of ec is not normal it's poor exposure then complaining about the artefacts is beyond stupid.

I am more than happy with my 5D2 and like most others I don't get this so called banding.
I completely agree. I have NEVER seen this in a real print, EVER. My guess is that Canon doesn't fix it because they feel that it isn't broke in the first place.
You are funny! The 'effects they are seeing' are the manifestation of lack of usable DR. You are the poster boy for the crowd that wants more DR, but doesn't know what that means (both what it would take to have it, and why they don't have it now) -- and belittles those who do.
I find the following juxtaposition rather amusing. When users are asked what they would like most in the next camera, at or near the top of the list is usually "more dynamic range". Then when someone points out why their camera doesn't have more DR, and how easy it would be to fix, they are vilified.
--
emil
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http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/
 
do you think the 5D3, which I believe is coming in OCt, will be almost banding free?
I haven't seen any sign that Canon has any desire to address this issue. The 1D4 has the same problem as the 5D2, new for the 1D series. This should give an indication of how toxic all the Canon defenders really are. Canon probably cut new corners with the 1D4, knowing that the likes of fictional characters like "Viglio", "gdanmarshall", "bman4", and "SDU" will put all the complainers in their place.
this is really bad , especially Viglio is the biggest fanboy of canon 5 series ever here.
I am planning to sell all my Nikon if the 5D3 has no this horrible low ISO banding issue....but I prefer this type of noise over the Nikon extreme shadow blocking or black clipping , to hide the horrible shadow noise there actually is.
You're confusing conversion styles with RAW data. The black-clipping of RAW data in Nikons is not an issue for most photography, even to pull shadows up a few stops. The association commonly made between Nikon RAW issues and the lack of color or detail in deep shadows of conversions is a mistake.
but then , do you really not think Nikon is using some very odd noise reduction in RAW?

I see very strange shadow and the NX converted files and Adobe converted NEF files are very clean but if you use some other RAW conveters like DCRAW or C1 , you will see more noise in shadow , I am wondering this means the DC or C1 can shut out Nikon's very sneaky NR in RAW from its converison process but Adobe cannot do this?

With LR3 or ACR5.5 , I never seen any hot or dead pixels in Nikon NEF files but when I use C1 or soemthing like Silkypixs(not sure the real name of this program) I see many many hot pixels even at ISO320.

So, I am sure Nikon is doing soemthing very odd in its NEF processing.
And the Nikon D700/D3s have the horrible high ISO blooming type of banding noise ,which is hard to correct.
Blooming is a CCD thing with saturated sensors, not common at high ISOs. Maybe it's an amplifier issue?
you will see many examples if you google Nikon high ISO banding or Nikon D3 blooming noise issue.

you may be right or I dont know as I am not an expert of any kind here but I have had this sensor blooming issue and sent my D3s 2 times to Nikon service center and they do not honor my international warranty.......and they say as with Canon it is not a problem.
I guess all cameras are bad and we have to pay this much to still compromise some or all................ridiculous but this is the reality until some one else starts buidling a better camera system.
As long as companies manage to maintain good reputations, they have little incentive to step up the game.
so, do you consider switching to other brand?

and if you do, what is it?
 
suprised the company took that back since the problem is user not equipment.
I am rather surprised by your comment if it is a serious one, not made in jest. For many years I surpervised a laboratory that developed CCD cameras from scratch. We made the mask designs, had the wafers fabricated, diced the wafers, thinned the chips, and packaged them. We custom-built the electronics for the reading out the devices and processing the images so as to get minimum noise. The banding noise exhibited by this camera is NOT user-generated. In fact, I don't think the typical user would know how to generate this kind of noise in an image from this camera without an enormous amount of work. We have seen this kind of noise in our lab, and it is always considered to be a fault, usually of the electronics. It should not be there. We always eliminate it. The only noise should be random noise of photon sampling, read noise, and dark current.

To be sure, whether this banding noise is a problem for the user or merely a technical feature of no practical importance is up to each user. Clearly some users of the camera find the fault more than an interesting technical curiosity- it degrades their images in ways that bother them. You can't argue with them. They are the ones who are bothered. Others either don't see the banding because of how they handle their images or perhaps their particualr camera doesn't have it. Fine. Good for them! They are happy. But they really can't fault someone who finds this banding-fault a problem- and it is a camera fault, not a user fault- for their photography. Maybe you don't approve of how they take or process pictures, but that is none or your or anyone else's business. This is a fixable fault, and it should be fixed. My 450D had banding, and it degraded my normally-exposed images. My 550D so far has not shown any banding, and I like its images far better in part because of that.

Joe
 
you are very wrong here and a very big problem here.

seriously, unless you force them they will never ever try to fix this very serious issue.

Nikon and Canon are so arrogant and ignoring users for a long time and it is really time for them to wake up to lsiten to their users' voice becoming louder and louder, I mean Canon should know how many of us hate this very serious LOWISO banding.

I dont really care very high ISO horizontal banding but this low ISO vertical one is a big problem for us landscape and studio shooters, every photo shot with the 5D2 at low ISO ,with some kind of bush or foliage shadow or even hair has this serious issue.

You need to open up your eyes and face up to this very serious issue.

Do not be too defensive or evasive unless you are working for Canon.
they are not vilified for wanting more ( I would like more DR in my next camera) they are shot down because the effects they are seeing are self inflicted not down to the camera.
I find the following juxtaposition rather amusing. When users are asked what they would like most in the next camera, at or near the top of the list is usually "more dynamic range". Then when someone points out why their camera doesn't have more DR, and how easy it would be to fix, they are vilified.

--
emil
--



http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/
 
Vibrio , you should have known who you are insulting about.

Emil is a PROFESSOR and John is a very very great knowledge of Canon and all other digicam sensors here.

And I respect them and I am sure most of people want them to be in all discussions here, or at least in many threads here because without Emil and John , this is a very boring forum.

So, you should be very careful about your word choices and attitude, you are very insulting sometimes.

I think you are very rude to Emil.

And I remembeedr than you changed and tiwsted my words in my posts in other low ISO banding related threads and you presensted it as my opinion which was not mine to others in the discussion........this is not acceptable.
they are not vilified for wanting more ( I would like more DR in my next camera) they are shot down because the effects they are seeing are self inflicted not down to the camera.
seriously stop talking so much rubbish. applying 3 stops of ec is not normal it's poor exposure then complaining about the artefacts is beyond stupid.

I am more than happy with my 5D2 and like most others I don't get this so called banding.
You are funny! The 'effects they are seeing' are the manifestation of lack of usable DR. You are the poster boy for the crowd that wants more DR, but doesn't know what that means (both what it would take to have it, and why they don't have it now) -- and belittles those who do.
I find the following juxtaposition rather amusing. When users are asked what they would like most in the next camera, at or near the top of the list is usually "more dynamic range". Then when someone points out why their camera doesn't have more DR, and how easy it would be to fix, they are vilified.
--
emil
--



http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/
 
This is about the 500th time I've seen that shot of the tree in the meadow. Did you actually take that? if you did, can you post the RAW file, if available?

--
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'Hit Refresh if pix do not appear. Flaky ISP at work.'

 
issue....but I prefer this type of noise over the Nikon extreme shadow blocking or black clipping , to hide the horrible shadow noise there actually is.

And the Nikon D700/D3s have the horrible high ISO blooming type of banding noise ,whcih is hard to correct.
Well, I have used both Canon and Nikon together during the last 2.5 years (1Ds mk3, D3/D3s) and can say without the slightest doubt that the Nikon does not suffer from those problems any more than Canon does. Rather, the Nikon high-ISO images, and deep shadows at low ISO, are considerably cleaner than Canon's. And if you get such black clipping, you have something strange going on in your RAW converter.

The D3 did have horizontal lines that were generated by blown highlights at the highest ISOs, but this problem does not exist anymore in the D3s. I thank Nikon for that.

--
B. Slotte
Turku, Finland
http://bslotte.smugmug.com
 
This is complete stupidity -- it reminds me of the story about the guy who went to the doctor and said "it hurts when I do this" to which the doctor replied: "well, then don't do that".
The guy probably complains that it hurts when he is engaging in some activity he likes. Wouldn't the response from the doctor be very unprofessional and rude if there is an easy treatment for his condition?

And wouldn't it be even more strange if complete outsiders who have no interest in this specific activity jump in and argue that there is absolutely no reason for the doctor to treat the guy?
 
This is complete stupidity -- it reminds me of the story about the guy who went to the doctor and said "it hurts when I do this" to which the doctor replied: "well, then don't do that".
The guy probably complains that it hurts when he is engaging in some activity he likes. Wouldn't the response from the doctor be very unprofessional and rude if there is an easy treatment for his condition?
So, what would the easy teatment for this condition be?
And wouldn't it be even more strange if complete outsiders who have no interest in this specific activity jump in and argue that there is absolutely no reason for the doctor to treat the guy?
That is not what is happening here though. This is the same bunch of guys that always discuss this issue -- there are no outsiders in this thread, just the "usual suspects".
 
Some people were asking me how I managed to return my 5D2, because they always had problems with the retailers, since the retailers are reluctant to give your money back, even though it is your rights at some points.

Another work around is to chargeback using your credit card company. Your transaction was with the retailer, not with Canon (the retailer should deal with Canon).

If you are happy with your camera then move on,.. this thread is not for you.

But if you are not happy and wish to return the 5D2 camera, UK government supports you to return the camera. http://consumerdirect.gov.uk/
Does anyaone know what steps have to be taken in the USA, in order to get the money back?
 
This is complete stupidity -- it reminds me of the story about the guy who went to the doctor and said "it hurts when I do this" to which the doctor replied: "well, then don't do that".
The guy probably complains that it hurts when he is engaging in some activity he likes. Wouldn't the response from the doctor be very unprofessional and rude if there is an easy treatment for his condition?
So, what would the easy teatment for this condition be?
Well, it must be easy for Professor Canon if even Dr. Nikon and Dr. Sony can treat it...

Seriously, if Canon really can't improve the sensor/downstream electronics, they could at least partially subtract the banding from the raw data if the sensor includes enough masked pixels.
And wouldn't it be even more strange if complete outsiders who have no interest in this specific activity jump in and argue that there is absolutely no reason for the doctor to treat the guy?
That is not what is happening here though. This is the same bunch of guys that always discuss this issue -- there are no outsiders in this thread, just the "usual suspects".
"Outsiders" with regard to the particular activity (trying to maximize low ISO dynamic range). For sure, this bunch of people are no outsiders to participating very vocally in threads that really should be of no interest to them. I wonder what motivates them.
 
its not a CCD TBH :P

the banding is user generated because of what they are doing to the image when they process the RAW. if they don't do such stupid processing they would not have any artifacts.
suprised the company took that back since the problem is user not equipment.
I am rather surprised by your comment if it is a serious one, not made in jest. For many years I surpervised a laboratory that developed CCD cameras from scratch. We made the mask designs, had the wafers fabricated, diced the wafers, thinned the chips, and packaged them. We custom-built the electronics for the reading out the devices and processing the images so as to get minimum noise. The banding noise exhibited by this camera is NOT user-generated. In fact, I don't think the typical user would know how to generate this kind of noise in an image from this camera without an enormous amount of work. We have seen this kind of noise in our lab, and it is always considered to be a fault, usually of the electronics. It should not be there. We always eliminate it. The only noise should be random noise of photon sampling, read noise, and dark current.

To be sure, whether this banding noise is a problem for the user or merely a technical feature of no practical importance is up to each user. Clearly some users of the camera find the fault more than an interesting technical curiosity- it degrades their images in ways that bother them. You can't argue with them. They are the ones who are bothered. Others either don't see the banding because of how they handle their images or perhaps their particualr camera doesn't have it. Fine. Good for them! They are happy. But they really can't fault someone who finds this banding-fault a problem- and it is a camera fault, not a user fault- for their photography. Maybe you don't approve of how they take or process pictures, but that is none or your or anyone else's business. This is a fixable fault, and it should be fixed. My 450D had banding, and it degraded my normally-exposed images. My 550D so far has not shown any banding, and I like its images far better in part because of that.

Joe
 
yes in my next camera I would expect to have more DR since technology would have moved on. I'll replace my 5D2 with a new camera if the new camera has better IQ. I'm not saying I'm not happy with it, far from it it does everything I require.
Then why did you say you want more DR? The limited usable DR of the 5D2 is more than enough for you. :p

Being able to lift the shadows without unacceptable noise is what it means to have more DR.
No, thats being able to adjust the RAW image to give more not getting more from the camera. I don't get unacceptable noise if I lift shadows a bit, I only get it if I lift it stupid amount like the OP has.
 
oooo a Professor, whats your point? I'm a Dr but thats irrelavent to my photography. John clearly don't know how to process images though just like you.
Vibrio , you should have known who you are insulting about.

Emil is a PROFESSOR and John is a very very great knowledge of Canon and all other digicam sensors here.

And I respect them and I am sure most of people want them to be in all discussions here, or at least in many threads here because without Emil and John , this is a very boring forum.

So, you should be very careful about your word choices and attitude, you are very insulting sometimes.

I think you are very rude to Emil.

And I remembeedr than you changed and tiwsted my words in my posts in other low ISO banding related threads and you presensted it as my opinion which was not mine to others in the discussion........this is acceptable because I talk rubbish most of the time I spend trolling the canon forum.
 
fix what, your inablitly to process images correctly. TBH thats not canons fault.
seriously, unless you force them they will never ever try to fix this very serious issue.

Nikon and Canon are so arrogant and ignoring users for a long time and it is really time for them to wake up to lsiten to their users' voice becoming louder and louder, I mean Canon should know how many of us hate this very serious LOWISO banding.

I dont really care very high ISO horizontal banding but this low ISO vertical one is a big problem for us landscape and studio shooters, every photo shot with the 5D2 at low ISO ,with some kind of bush or foliage shadow or even hair has this serious issue.

You need to open up your eyes and face up to this very serious issue.

Do not be too defensive or evasive unless you are working for Canon.
they are not vilified for wanting more ( I would like more DR in my next camera) they are shot down because the effects they are seeing are self inflicted not down to the camera.
I find the following juxtaposition rather amusing. When users are asked what they would like most in the next camera, at or near the top of the list is usually "more dynamic range". Then when someone points out why their camera doesn't have more DR, and how easy it would be to fix, they are vilified.

--
emil
--



http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/
 
cameras can't capture the range that we see. will give greater transitions between black and white. I'm more than happy with what I have at the mo but if I replace my camera I want it to be better.
But more DR means that you're able to get usable detail from deeper within the shadows. If you don't use detail in deep shadows (e.g. by pushing them), what's the use for more DR? Sorry, but what you're saying does not make any sense.

If you want more DR, you want less noise & banding in the deep shadows. If you don't have any use for detail in the deepest shadows & banding in there doesn't bother you, you don't need more DR. Simple as that.
 
Then why did you say you want more DR? The limited usable DR of the 5D2 is more than enough for you. :p
yes in my next camera I would expect to have more DR since technology would have moved on. I'll replace my 5D2 with a new camera if the new camera has better IQ. I'm not saying I'm not happy with it, far from it it does everything I require.
And yet, Canon seems to be moving backward in the usable low ISO DR department, even though its technology on many other fronts has improved over time.
Being able to lift the shadows without unacceptable noise is what it means to have more DR.
No, thats being able to adjust the RAW image to give more not getting more from the camera. I don't get unacceptable noise if I lift shadows a bit, I only get it if I lift it stupid amount like the OP has.
Now that's -- what was the term you used? Oh yes, "beyond stupid". There is zero distinction between 'getting more [DR] from the camera' and 'being able to adjust the RAW image to give more [DR]'.

--
emil
--



http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/
 
I wholeheartingly agree. I get a chuckle when people try to pull up shadows or pull down highlights to the point of insanity. Same thing with a lot of the "crayon" bizzare looking HDR's out there. People trying to get everything to the same luminousity or something. What they don't understand is that what makes a lot of great pictures is the play of shadow and light.

--

Photography, like many other hobbies, persuits and art forms, is first and foremost about having fun and exploring.
 

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