Is Full Frame Overrated?????

If you read the opinions of a lot of people here at DP review...you would think that FF cures cancer, creates world peace and wins the Nobel Peace Prize.

There is as much hype about FF as there is about how many megapixels there are in your current chip. The marketing hype has really created a mindset of "MUST HAVE".

There are some advantages if your shooting style can leverage them. IE if you shoot near total dark....high ISO would benifit you. If you shoot portraits the narrower DOF might give you a bit of an artistic edge. If your a landscape shooter having a D3X would give you much more DR an MP without the ill effects of cramming those pixels into a DX sensor. (Notice I didn't say having a D700 or D3 or D3s would help you.....12MP with all that extra cost really isnt realistic upgrade IE worth the extra cost if you already have a capable DX camera and lenses)

With all that said...and some may take those items and REALLY say thats enough justification.

I would say that most DX cameras are extreemly capable and probably better than most of the people behind them.

I would say that a photographer that saves money on a DX system and invests the rest in workshops or classes would end up taking MUCH better pictures than the person who went hog wild and just invested in the FF gear and went out shooting.

This is the breaking point where gear ends and talent begins.

I would say when the your talent is at a level that the gear is getting in the way...and the FF advantages are the reason your gear is getting in the way...thats when you go out and buy FF gear.

Till then your money is better spent on you.

Roman
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Roman I agree.

The only advantage I see to FF is with an increase in MP's you don't suffer from the limits of diffraction degradation as much. i.e. you can shoot a 12mp D700 at F16 while with the D300 F11 is about the limit. (For me anyway... :) )

I wouldn't want more then 12 MP's on a DX sensor, with diffraction limiting me to F8 or F5.6. But on a FF I'd go 16 or 18 MP's and be back to F11 which is OK.

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Edward

'Panasonic shrunk my cameras!'

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But the 400 2.8 is even heavier. That is what I meant. And if you use the 300 2.8 on a FX, you can use the 70-200 on a DX and that is a huge difference.
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hobby aviation photographer
 
Absolutely all the bodies are overrated... but soon they will be out of date by others even more overrrated ;) enjoy the one you have now or buying the one you need.
I see more and more FF Bodies being produced, and I was wondering for those who have made the switch is the "Huge" Investment worth it??? Me personally I won't even think of buying a FF Body till they get around $1000 but that's just me!
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Un saludo.
 
Instead of just taking snipits of my post, quote and or read the entire post. I stated the diffrences quite well.
They are not snippets but two full and self standing sentences, complete statements. The two sentences I wanted to answer to, and the recommendation is Only quote what's relevant for the post, delete the rest for better readability . At least that's what DPR says. Sorry you don't like that, but that's the way things are.
And I stand behind all that I said.
Good. Your opinion against mine. I have never seen any posts near to that kind of glorifying FF description (perhaps because I am not active on the FF sites) and indeed images taken with FF look different, which is what I said. Not that their cure cancer or anything, just that they are different and the difference is visible in most cases if identical images are compared.
I have shot with my D300 and a D3s, minor diffrences are there.
Again, your opinion, meaning that you have not seen anything other than minor differences in the images you have seen.
Most average shooters will not see a diffrence.
I can't talk for the majority, I have no idea what most average shooters would see or not see. I also don't know how to define an "average shooter" .
Really good shooters will leverage the diffrences and see it, but it isnt a night and day diffrence. You would have to see them side by side and either be shooting in extreeme conditions or really push the files to see any diffrence. And the diffrence in most cases would not be worth the thousand dollars of diffrence in the price for the average shooter.
Of course you are right, the differences would not be night and day but there would be differences even under ideal conditions. And yes, you must see them side by side or else it is in most cases not possible to differentiate between them. But that is true also for DX vs. a good P&S.

Under ideal conditions there will be very little differences, but as conditions change the differences become more and more obvious. By conditions I mean increase in contrast or decrease in light, need for fast frame or faster focus and so on. You don't really need to end up in extreme conditions for the differences to become obvious and clear.

Than what is worth and not worth paying for is again just a personal opinion based on personal economy and other personal conditions. Going FX is not really "thousands of dollars away from a DX kit if the DX kit one has is not just a D300 with an 18-200 or with a large collection of DX lenses. You see, even that is personal; assuming one already has some FX lenses the jump to FX won't be that expensive. Anyway, I am not in position to say what an average shooter may or may not need, as far as I am concerned there is no such thing as "average shooter". If you mean majority than I agree, the majority is only interested in P&S anyway, so they don't care about this discussion. But in any case, I let every one to decide for themselves what they need and what may and may not be worth paying for. In any case, personal economy is not the same for all of us and there is no doubt about the fact that FX is more expensive than DX. Anyway, the reason I bought the D300s and not the D700 was actually the fact that I also considered the price differences did not give enough advantages for me, so I felt it was not worth for me to pay for. I would however not deny the obvious differences, and not willing to state in generic terms that it is not worth paying for.
Were talking 12MP FX to 12MP DX.
Yes. And I still say there are differences, but that may be more or less visible in some images than in others. For shooting flowers or close ups, macros may not make much difference if you use FX, but perhaps shooting portraits, available light, high ISO or landscapes will clearly show differences. At least that's where I see the differences.
D3X is a bit diffrent...of course. More MP, better DR, better color....from what I hear. I still have yet to shoot one.
If FX in general is not worth for the average shooter, than the D3x is even less worth. Regardless how good the end result is, the D3x is in my opinion both very heavy and very expensive. It is a clear studio camera as I see it, not one for general photography.
I have shot MF digital and thats a whole nother ballgame. The diffrence is staggering....but so is the price.
I believe you.
 
and it is hard to tell the difference from my DX and FX images.
Showing an image on the web or wherever is no method to make images with different depth of field equalize. This of course is unless you are cropping your full frame shots.
They both have their place and no one needs to get their nose bent.
Shallow depth of field is seen on web images as easily as large depth of field photos are.
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For anyone scrimping and saving to get into digital photography as a hobby, I don't think FX can be justified due to the expense. FX certainly does some things better than DX (I expect you already know what they are) but FX comes at a steep price in terms of bodies and comparable glass.

As a wildlife/birder hobbiest I mainly shoot DX
I've heard of FF standing for full frame, but with does FX stand for? what does the X stand for? Same, what does DX really stand for? FF is a much better abbreviation to use.
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FF is a much better abbreviation to use.
Not at all, it is a loaded term, all the more so since I often use the full frame on my D300 and also often crop the full frame of my A850. If 135 format is "full frame" then what is 6x7 format? More than "full frame?"
 
FF is a much better abbreviation to use.
Not at all, it is a loaded term, all the more so since I often use the full frame on my D300 and also often crop the full frame of my A850. If 135 format is "full frame" then what is 6x7 format? More than "full frame?"
Recording the full frame of the image circle of the lens, and that dSLRs are based upon the body design of film SLRs - 35mm. Many people it seems use film designed lenses on their smaller than full frame image sensor dSLRs, so they are not recording the full frame the lens was designed to record.

FX just sounds silly. Like X is for extreme or something cool sounding.
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Hi Roman,

We have been busy moving to Eastern Oregon. (It only took 3 years!!!) We have finally got all the ducks together and loaded them up and got out of the city. Not much time for a lot of anything, including photography. But I'm hoping to start getting out there soon. I'm kind of centrally located to the Palouse, Alvord Desert, and Yellowstone isn't that far away either, not to mention the Snake River and the Eagle Cap Wilderness.

Hope all is well by you! And hope to see you out there!

--
Edward

'Panasonic shrunk my cameras!'

http://www.edwardthomasart.com
http://www.pbase.com/edwardthomas
 
Were talking 12MP FX to 12MP DX.
Yes. And I still say there are differences, but that may be more or less visible in some images than in others. For shooting flowers or close ups, macros may not make much difference if you use FX, but perhaps shooting portraits, available light, high ISO or landscapes will clearly show differences. At least that's where I see the differences.
I'm curious, what sort of differences between a D300s and a D700 with equivalent optics (adjusted for crop factor) on them do you see in a landscape shot?

I get the high ISO performance difference. I get the narrow DOF difference. Since neither of those apply to a landscape shot, I'm wondering what differences you see in a landscape shot.

--
John
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For IQ a larger sensor will always beat a smaller one. For portability and compactness of the system a smaller sensor wins. Pick your compromise.
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Kind regards
Kaj
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It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.- Elliott Erwitt
 
For IQ a larger sensor will always beat a smaller one. For portability and compactness of the system a smaller sensor wins. Pick your compromise.
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Kind regards
Kaj
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WSSA member

It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.- Elliott Erwitt
In what respect the FX sensor will beat DX sensor IQ wise if they both have the same number of pixels?
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Best regards
 
For IQ a larger sensor will always beat a smaller one. For portability and compactness of the system a smaller sensor wins. Pick your compromise.
--
Kind regards
Kaj
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member

It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.- Elliott Erwitt
In what respect the FX sensor will beat DX sensor IQ wise if they both have the same number of pixels?
  • Less noise at any ISO
  • Dynamic range
  • Tonal and color depth
  • More forgiving of lens shortcomings (at least in the centerportion the frame)
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Best regards
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Kind regards
Kaj
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member

It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.- Elliott Erwitt
 
In what respect the FX sensor will beat DX sensor IQ wise if they both have the same number of pixels?
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Best regards
When you have a FX camera and a DX camera and both are of the same vintage, more-or-less, and both have the same number of megapixels, the FX camera will have higher IQ because the pixel density is lower.

In FX you have 12 million (for example) pixels in a 36x23.9mm rectangle, and in DX you have 12 million pixels in a 23.6x15.8mm sensor.

As a result, the DX pixels are smaller and the FX pixels are larger. Larger pixels can capture more light, and thus the FX sensor has higher IQ.

This IQ difference mainly shows up at higher ISO settings. (At lower ISO settings you'll be hard-pressed to notice the difference between FX and DX).

Because of the lower pixel density (if I understand this properly) diffraction sets in a bit later on FX, which means you can use smaller f-stops (say f/16) and still maintain optimal sharpness, whereas f/11 might be the similar limit on a DX body.

BUT ... DX is superior for telephoto shots (when using the same lens) because both cameras have the same number of pixels, but the "crop factor" gives DX an advantage when it comes to reach and resolution.

In order for an FX camera to surpass a DX camera for telephoto shots (birding, etc) you'd need to put a longer lens on the FX body.

For example, if you put a 200mm lens on both an FX body and a DX body, and take a picture of a grizzly bear 100 yards out, the DX shot will probably look better.

But if you put a 300mm lens on the FX body and keep the 200mm lens on the DX body, then the equivalent field-of-view is identical and then the FX IQ would be superior.

--

35mm film camera out-resolves an 18-mp M9: http://www.imx.nl/photo/Film/page169/page169.html
 
ALSO ... regarding pixel density ... there's absolutely no reason why Nikon couldn't make a DX DSLR that had the same chip as, say, the D3s, only DX-sized instead of FX-sized.

Then such a DX camera would have the EXACT SAME pixel density, exact same low-noise as the FX sensor, EXACT SAME diffraction characteristics, EXACT SAME dynamic range and color and all that. But it would have less megapixels. This is basically what happens if you put a DX lens on a D3s body.

But Nikon would probably have a hard time selling a 5.1-megapixel DX camera, even if it matched the D3s in all respects except for the FX thing.

That is to say ... it IS NOT "FX" by itself that produces a low-noise image. It's pixel density and other factors. If that makes any sense.
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35mm film camera out-resolves an 18-mp M9: http://www.imx.nl/photo/Film/page169/page169.html
 
Than how to explain the fact that D3s outperforms D700 in high ISO? They both have the same size sensor and same pixel density.

--
Best regards
 
I think it is more a matter of technology and processing than of the sensor size.
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Best regards
 
Than how to explain the fact that D3s outperforms D700 in high ISO? They both have the same size sensor and same pixel density.
Naturally, technology advances.

But with same generation technology a larger sensor will outperform a smaller one because it catches more light per sensor area (not necessary pixel). Simple physics. This is what matters when the image is printed to same size.

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Kind regards
Kaj
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member

It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.- Elliott Erwitt
 

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