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legal issues with posting photos online

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Bill Grove

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Has anyone had problems with parents that don't want their kids photos posted on-line ? I had a women at a middle school football game (public school) very angry because when she asked what I was doing (I thought she was a potential customer) and when I explained that I take photos of the kids and post them to a website so parent could purchase she became very upset. I told her that if she didn't want her daughters picture taken that wasn't a problem, but she insisted that I not take any pictures. Not to make a bad situation worse I went back to taking the action shots of the football game. Then after the game I was approached by the principal who asked about the photos, to take care of any potential problems I told him I would delete any photos that I had taken of the cheerleaders and did so in front of him. (D100) Now today I message from the information director at the High School asking me to call her. I am sure it will be about this same lady who was upset............ just wondering if others have had the same problem or looking for suggestions on how to preceed.

Sorry for the long post, thanks for any words of advice that you can give.

Bill Grove
http://www.mvpshots.com
 
I did the same for a number of years. I ran my own site before the sites like photreflect.com were around. I found tis as a method of reaching customers of high school sports because I couldn't set up and sell at a school event. I quit the site this spring because High School stuff just wasn't worth it.

I never did have an issue such as yours but it doesn't surprise me. One thing I would be interested in knowing is, whom does she not want seeing her daughter on the net? Is she hiding the daughter from someone? I know of a guy that had a similar incident as yours. This incident went full blown, to court and the whole nine yards. In the end the shooter won. He was covered under the same blanket as the press. The judge ruled that he had every right to take pictures and publish them on the net or in print. Since he was not using the pictures in an endorsment type advertisement deal he owned copyright.

The cheerleader is in a public venue, same as the footbal players. Did the parents of the football player raise hell about the paper putting his pic in the paper?

It would be like the guy getting arrested suing the paper over putting a picture of him being hauled into court i the daily rag. Public venue...

--
Paul-NM
http://www.cavesports.net
 
Sports photography for me has brought a large boost to my business and really gotten me closer with the small community I live in. The one thing I would recommend to anyone before attempting this at a high school or Jr. High level is to connect with someone in the school system, the higher up the better. Offer to share anything (within reason) the school may need free of charge. Such as yearbook images or photo's for their trophy cases etc.

Once you smooth the road ahead parents will feel more comfortable with you being there. And what better seats can you have than right on the sidelines on Friday night.
--
Paul R.
DXP
 
Remember anyone can sue for any reason in the USA, a suit can wipe you out financially even if you win !

Along with becoming an LLC, you need liability insurance for the business and personally you should have an umbrella policy which covers you (and family)!

Contact the school and make an offer to help them, as was suggested previously!

You may also need permission/permit if the events take place on private school property and or city/township/county or state property!

Mike
Digital Xtreme Photography said:
Sports photography for me has brought a large boost to my business
and really gotten me closer with the small community I live in. The
one thing I would recommend to anyone before attempting this at a
high school or Jr. High level is to connect with someone in the
school system, the higher up the better. Offer to share anything
(within reason) the school may need free of charge. Such as
yearbook images or photo's for their trophy cases etc.
Once you smooth the road ahead parents will feel more comfortable
with you being there. And what better seats can you have than right
on the sidelines on Friday night.
--
Paul R.
DXP
Click to expand...
 
Very simply the school has a policy of not allowing photography of students for profit. I guess I was assuming a public school that I am paying for would be different. It is very disappointing that one parent can ruin it for all the all parents who were enjoying getting quality photographs of their kids. This was simply a small very part time buisness that I don't see know that it is worth the effort.
 
Bill,

How did you make out with the director? Also, I see that you are using PhotoReflect.Com for order fulfillment. How do you have your pictures printed with them?

-James
Bill Grove said:
the cheerleaders and did so in front of him. (D100) Now today I
message from the information director at the High School asking me
to call her. I am sure it will be about this same lady who was
upset............ just wondering if others have had the same
problem or looking for suggestions on how to preceed.
Click to expand...
 
I have been using EZprints with them, so far it has worked out fine, very good quality and quick delivery.
James Jones said:
How did you make out with the director? Also, I see that you are
using PhotoReflect.Com for order fulfillment. How do you have your
pictures printed with them?

-James
Bill Grove said:
the cheerleaders and did so in front of him. (D100) Now today I
message from the information director at the High School asking me
to call her. I am sure it will be about this same lady who was
upset............ just wondering if others have had the same
problem or looking for suggestions on how to preceed.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
The PUBLIC school has a policy that you cannot come onto PUBLIC property during PUBLIC events and take pictures of students performing IN PUBLIC if your intention is to make those pictures available for the parents to purchase at a later time and not on school property? Huh???

First of all, that sounds like a snow job to me. There's something beneath that policy that they're not telling you. See if you can tactfully figure out what that is.

Also... what do they do for student/class photos? Is the organization they use doing that for free or are THEY engaging in photography of students for profit? Are the Yearbook photographers doing all this for free also?

I wouldn't make a Supreme Court case out of this, but I would consider bringing this up with the school board to seek clarification -- my main thrust would be to seek understanding as to why the policy is being selectively applied -- and if they claim it isn't, I'd ask how the School Pictures organization and the Yearbook people are exempt.

Subsequent to this, I would also write a nice letter to the parents explaining that due to the policy, as dictated to you by so-and-so, you will no longer be able to photograph their children involved in school sports. Be sure to give that person's full name. Send a copy of the letter to every parent who has ever ordered pictures from you. Send a copy to that person, the principal, the local paper, the school board, etc. Do not suggest in the letter that the parents rally or call that person, just make a factual statement that "based on a telephone call with so-and-so, ..."

If the school board upheld that policy, I'd also include them in the letter... especially nice if you can do that right before elections... :)

Probably won't change anything, but it's worth a shot.

-- Lew
Bill Grove said:
Very simply the school has a policy of not allowing photography of
students for profit. I guess I was assuming a public school that I
am paying for would be different. It is very disappointing that
one parent can ruin it for all the all parents who were enjoying
getting quality photographs of their kids. This was simply a small
very part time buisness that I don't see know that it is worth the
effort.
Click to expand...
 
Bill,

Her answer is sooo bogus!!!! Do the children not have school pictures taken of them? Do they not have class pictures taken of the students? Is she going to tell you that the photographers make no money from the school by taking those pictures? He real response should have been: "the school has a policy of not allowing photography of students for profit unless they get a piece of the pie".

-James
Bill Grove said:
Very simply the school has a policy of not allowing photography of
students for profit. I guess I was assuming a public school that I
am paying for would be different. It is very disappointing that
one parent can ruin it for all the all parents who were enjoying
getting quality photographs of their kids. This was simply a small
very part time buisness that I don't see know that it is worth the
effort.
Click to expand...
 
Bill,

Sorry to see another photog getting snagged in this kind of situation. This thread has come up a few times in the past few months with school sports starting up again.

If you have a business of selling photos taken at other kinds of events I would be careful about how you proceed. You would be very surprised at how small a community can be and it is better for you as a small business person to remain VERY professional and calm-headed.

I'd try to have a frank conversation with the 'information director' to understand this photo policy. Ask to see it in writing so you can understand it better. Ask how they accomodate school portraits photos given this policy. Try to explain that you think you are within your rights to take photographs and sell them after the event - what do they personally think?

I've recently had my first parental privacy complaint. My response was just to step up my plans for password-protecting my galleries. The coaches and league manager were thrilled at my effort to address one parent's privacy concern and the issue has gone away.

Perhaps password-protecting your galleries will be enough protection to satisfy your 'problem parent'.

I agree, technically people who participate in these events that happen on public property should not have a full expectation of privacy. In reality, if you look greedy, stubborn and hot-headed you will turn off your customers though. I make a practice of never saying anything bad about a customer or organization. It makes people wonder what you say about THEM when they're not around.

I only shoot league sports right now. I've shot some high school football, but haven't solicited any sales on site - just shot for fun. Actually I had some of my customers recognize me at those games and ask if I would shoot their kids participating in school sports. My response was that I would come and shoot, but I would need to do it on contract. They would pay me a flat hourly fee up front, I would take the photographs and they could order prints from me at a greatly reduced price from my spec rates.

Good luck with this!

-k
Bill Grove said:
Very simply the school has a policy of not allowing photography of
students for profit. I guess I was assuming a public school that I
am paying for would be different. It is very disappointing that
one parent can ruin it for all the all parents who were enjoying
getting quality photographs of their kids. This was simply a small
very part time buisness that I don't see know that it is worth the
effort.
Click to expand...
 
gpb11 said:
gpb11 said:
The PUBLIC school has a policy that you cannot come onto PUBLIC property during PUBLIC events and take pictures of students performing IN PUBLIC if your intention is to make those pictures available for the parents to purchase at a later time and not on school property? Huh???
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Public Universities do this all the time with granting TV rights for Millions of Dollars. You can't come in and take pictures for profit. Why is High School any different? Just because something is public funded doesn't mean you have the right to do anything you want. just try showing up at the library and start painting the walls a better color. Or talking loud at a public play.

Granted, this is not the issue here, it's fear from parents about what those pictures are going to be used for.
Deeddawg said:
First of all, that sounds like a snow job to me. There's something
beneath that policy that they're not telling you. See if you can
tactfully figure out what that is.

Also... what do they do for student/class photos? Is the
organization they use doing that for free or are THEY engaging in
photography of students for profit? Are the Yearbook photographers
doing all this for free also?

I wouldn't make a Supreme Court case out of this, but I would
consider bringing this up with the school board to seek
clarification -- my main thrust would be to seek understanding as
to why the policy is being selectively applied -- and if they claim
it isn't, I'd ask how the School Pictures organization and the
Yearbook people are exempt.

Subsequent to this, I would also write a nice letter to the parents
explaining that due to the policy, as dictated to you by so-and-so,
you will no longer be able to photograph their children involved in
school sports. Be sure to give that person's full name. Send a
copy of the letter to every parent who has ever ordered pictures
from you. Send a copy to that person, the principal, the local
paper, the school board, etc. Do not suggest in the letter that
the parents rally or call that person, just make a factual
statement that "based on a telephone call with so-and-so, ..."

If the school board upheld that policy, I'd also include them in
the letter... especially nice if you can do that right before
elections... :)

Probably won't change anything, but it's worth a shot.

-- Lew
Bill Grove said:
Very simply the school has a policy of not allowing photography of
students for profit. I guess I was assuming a public school that I
am paying for would be different. It is very disappointing that
one parent can ruin it for all the all parents who were enjoying
getting quality photographs of their kids. This was simply a small
very part time buisness that I don't see know that it is worth the
effort.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
RZ
http://www.rzphotos.com
 
RZ said:
Deeddawg said:
Frank Miller said:
The PUBLIC school has a policy that you cannot come onto PUBLIC property during PUBLIC events and take pictures of students performing IN PUBLIC if your intention is to make those pictures available for the parents to purchase at a later time and not on school property? Huh???
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Public Universities do this all the time with granting TV rights
for Millions of Dollars. You can't come in and take pictures for
profit. Why is High School any different? Just because something
is public funded doesn't mean you have the right to do anything you
want. just try showing up at the library and start painting the
walls a better color. Or talking loud at a public play.
Click to expand...
I don't want to get into an argument here, suffice to say that I believe these are not good analogies. I'm not saying you can come into a public venue and do anything you like; especially if those activities deface public property or are disruptive to the spectators such as your two examples.

My post was generalized. There are exceptions. You can't stroll into your town's mayor's office and start snapping away. But with research, you will find that it is generally accepted that photographers are well within their rights to photograph people taking part in public activities in a public venue. That doesn't mean that the school cannot lease the public venue out to a private organization and thus make the property "non-public" for the event. I think you may find that such is the case in major collegiate sports; the sports league (NCAA, whatever) leases the venue and then is able to impose restrictions on photography and videography (you'll note that the television broadcasters contract with the sports league, not the school if I remember correctly). It's been a long time since I've attended a major collegiate sporting event, but I think you'll find in the small print that by purchasing the ticket you agree to those restrictions. Such is generally NOT the case in high school sports however, where the facility is not being leased out to a private organization for the event.

The "right" to photograph is one thing -- another ball of wax is what you can do with those photographs. Outside of newsworth media use, those photographs could not be used for a commercial purpose without some sort of model release or compensation to the subjects of those photographs. That's part of the concept where a person has the right to consent to and receive compensation for the commercial use of their likeness. (and this is where Model Releases come into play)

A gray area where most event photographers operate in is that they are merely trying to to sell the photograph to the subject of that photograph (or his/her parents). In such an instance, the subject effectively consents to the commercial use of their likeness by purchasing the photograph. That doesn't mean that their purchase means you can use their photograph elsewhere though -- if you wanted to use the image to advertise your services, you best have a model release.

So... for high school sports, I believe photographers are well within their rights to take the photographs... and are reasonably safe from a legal standpoint if the only commercial use of such photographs is to sell them to that student or his/her parents/family.

But as someone else mentioned, regardless of whether one is legally entitled to do something, it is usually very counterproductive to aggressively fight a school that says you cannot.
Frank Miller said:
Granted, this is not the issue here, it's fear from parents about
what those pictures are going to be used for.
Click to expand...
This is the crux of the issue -- the given explanation is just a smokescreen. The real reason is that a parent was worried and made a stink -- and school officials HATE to get calls from ticked off parents. So the school official used this supposed "policy".

IMHO, the two ways to combat this sort of situation are to (a) find out the parent's (& official's) real concerns and address those as best as possible and/or (b) turn the situation around such that the school official finds out that her decision has resulted in MORE calls from upset parents. The key is to never say anything negative about the school official to the other parents. Simply explain to the happy parents that you were told by so-and-so about this policy and that because of this you will be unable to continue your photography service for them at this school. You could further suggest that if their kids played sports in any non-school leagues, you would be happy to photography those games instead if they would ask the officials to invite you.
 
Big agreement here - I've actually found that parents WILL fight to help you make better pictures. ie: getting better access, etc... The people in charge generally want to keep the parents happy. If you just tell those happy people that you're not allowed to shoot any more because of this policy they will probably go to bat for you if you give them a little info on who to contact.

-k
Deeddawg said:
Simply
explain to the happy parents that you were told by so-and-so about
this policy and that because of this you will be unable to continue
your photography service for them at this school. You could
further suggest that if their kids played sports in any non-school
leagues, you would be happy to photography those games instead if
they would ask the officials to invite you.
Click to expand...
 
If you will furnish a CD of all your images to the schools yearbook staff for FREE, now you have a legitimate reason for being there and telling this woman they are for the school annual will shut her up. Of course, you will publish them on your website for sale also.
Bill Grove said:
Has anyone had problems with parents that don't want their kids
photos posted on-line ? I had a women at a middle school football
game (public school) very angry because when she asked what I was
doing (I thought she was a potential customer) and when I explained
that I take photos of the kids and post them to a website so parent
could purchase she became very upset. I told her that if she
didn't want her daughters picture taken that wasn't a problem, but
she insisted that I not take any pictures. Not to make a bad
situation worse I went back to taking the action shots of the
football game. Then after the game I was approached by the
principal who asked about the photos, to take care of any potential
problems I told him I would delete any photos that I had taken of
the cheerleaders and did so in front of him. (D100) Now today I
message from the information director at the High School asking me
to call her. I am sure it will be about this same lady who was
upset............ just wondering if others have had the same
problem or looking for suggestions on how to preceed.

Sorry for the long post, thanks for any words of advice that you
can give.

Bill Grove
http://www.mvpshots.com
Click to expand...
--
Only the Dead have seen the end of War....PLATO
 
I LIKE that idea! :)
Mike Goebel said:
If you will furnish a CD of all your images to the schools yearbook
staff for FREE, now you have a legitimate reason for being there
and telling this woman they are for the school annual will shut her
up. Of course, you will publish them on your website for sale also.
Click to expand...
 
mhayes wrote:

Mmmmmmmmm... sticky issue there. Hmmm myself from a privacy standpoint I may have had to hit the road on that particular game unless I could have said I'm shooting for so and so and maybe grabbing some others in the process.

I have not run into that yet in the last 3 years, however, I've got a 95% media emphasis over the sell of my soccer photos probably as well. In most cases, I'm not posting any names unless I'm writing a story on them.

Being a privacy advocate myself I'd be pretty quick to take the "high road" toward the neighborhood of "politcal correctness" unless it looked like it was just going to wreck your lively hood per say.

All that said, it's your gig!
Bill Grove said:
Has anyone had problems with parents that don't want their kids
photos posted on-line ? I had a women at a middle school football
game (public school) very angry because when she asked what I was
doing (I thought she was a potential customer) and when I explained
that I take photos of the kids and post them to a website so parent
could purchase she became very upset. I told her that if she
didn't want her daughters picture taken that wasn't a problem, but
she insisted that I not take any pictures. Not to make a bad
situation worse I went back to taking the action shots of the
football game. Then after the game I was approached by the
principal who asked about the photos, to take care of any potential
problems I told him I would delete any photos that I had taken of
the cheerleaders and did so in front of him. (D100) Now today I
message from the information director at the High School asking me
to call her. I am sure it will be about this same lady who was
upset............ just wondering if others have had the same
problem or looking for suggestions on how to preceed.

Sorry for the long post, thanks for any words of advice that you
can give.

Bill Grove
http://www.mvpshots.com
Click to expand...
 
It's pretty simple, the child is a minor and if the parent says no, you best not publish it. If you're shooting kid's sports with permission from the league, school, etc. (for newsletter purposes for example) and there is a model release written someplace in the activity contract the parent's signed you would have little worry, but that parent you're arguing with could have been a potential customer and the golden rule is never argue with customers.

I had a situation like this last Spring. I was the volunteer photographer for my son's little league (parent participation hours--sure beats the snack shack). I was not selling any work at all, though I could have. I was doing all my shooting with my modest Olympus E-10 (though I could have dragged out all my film gear I shoot motorsports with but I wanted to save the league money on film and processing). About half way through the season along comes a parent with a D1X, 80-200/2.8, etc. About a week later there are flyers posted with a URL to go pick shots of your kids and buy prints (at outragous prices I might add). The quality was good, I admit. But I was mad as heck. Here I am busting my butt for the league, for free, and here comes this guy with no permission profiteering. I kept my cool, thanks in part to my wonderful wife keeping me calmed down. What this person was doing was not only illegal, but totally uncool and gives legit event photographers a bad name.

In words, this is not an apologize later situation. Be sure up front you have full permission when shooting minor children. Only when shooting editorial work can you publish pictures of minors without permission, and even then it is often in bad taste.

Mike Veglia
http://www.motorsportvisions.com
 
msvphoto,

On the flip side, how many pictures do you think that parent actually sold? Probably wasn't even worth his time! Have yous seen him around recently?

-James
msvphoto said:
It's pretty simple, the child is a minor and if the parent says no,
you best not publish it. If you're shooting kid's sports with
permission from the league, school, etc. (for newsletter purposes
for example) and there is a model release written someplace in the
activity contract the parent's signed you would have little worry,
but that parent you're arguing with could have been a potential
customer and the golden rule is never argue with customers.

I had a situation like this last Spring. I was the volunteer
photographer for my son's little league (parent participation
hours--sure beats the snack shack). I was not selling any work at
all, though I could have. I was doing all my shooting with my
modest Olympus E-10 (though I could have dragged out all my film
gear I shoot motorsports with but I wanted to save the league money
on film and processing). About half way through the season along
comes a parent with a D1X, 80-200/2.8, etc. About a week later
there are flyers posted with a URL to go pick shots of your kids
and buy prints (at outragous prices I might add). The quality was
good, I admit. But I was mad as heck. Here I am busting my butt for
the league, for free, and here comes this guy with no permission
profiteering. I kept my cool, thanks in part to my wonderful wife
keeping me calmed down. What this person was doing was not only
illegal, but totally uncool and gives legit event photographers a
bad name.

In words, this is not an apologize later situation. Be sure up
front you have full permission when shooting minor children. Only
when shooting editorial work can you publish pictures of minors
without permission, and even then it is often in bad taste.

Mike Veglia
http://www.motorsportvisions.com
Click to expand...
 
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