EXR vs. BSI

bushi said:

Barry Fitzgerald said:

(...)Thing is I suspect a lot of Fxx Fuji users get the cameras for lower light and the DR side of things.

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True, true!

Sorry Paul, but I think (IMHO) that you've slightly missed the point in this comparison, when you left F70 at DR Auto (turned out to be DR100%, effectively), given that it was quite a dynamic subject (direct sunlight + shadows) - effectively, you've made no use of EXR goodies on board, in exact situation where the end result would likely benefit from them.

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OK but what is the point of a camera have auto DR or auto WB if it can't chose the right one when needed. Really the F70 should be shot as most people would use it and that’s in EXR Auto seeing as the other camera is in Auto.

bushi said:

...but maybe it would make sense if you could repeat the test, this time using ISO100, P mode, DR400, M file size? I am just curious about the comparison results.

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I could do that, how about the Fuji in 12MP EXR HR mode as well.

Barry, below is a shot taken from my dark and dingy bedroom both cameras at ISO800 and Auto WB. The F70 in P Mode, Size M, DR400% the Casio on Auto everything. This brings back memories of my other F70's I hated the auto WB indoors.

Paul.

PAUL TILL said:

OK but what is the point of a camera have auto DR or auto WB if it can't chose the right one when needed. Really the F70 should be shot as most people would use it and that’s in EXR Auto seeing as the other camera is in Auto.

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So what you are saying is that you test cameras as the least competent and most uninformed people would shoot them.

Instead, you should stop belligerently defending your poor test and reshoot with the best settings for each camera.

Of course, there might be an unstated agenda in play ... as I have written many times, if you don't state what you are trying to prove and how you are trying to prove it, then you can say and do anything you want and all a reader can say is ... what a waste of time to read any of that ...

By the way:

I am following this test closely and responding frequently because I knew from the moment I saw those images that it was an attempt by you to slide in a negative result against the F70 ... a camera you have acquired 3 times and still shoot incorrectly.

The fact that you continue to defend your choice to shoot in P mode at M size (something that an informed person would do and mom or pop would probablu NOT do) and then shoot DR AUTO (something that an informed person would NOT do and mom and pop would probably do) shows that either you are unable to see the conflicts and inconsistencies in your own test, or that you defend it because it suits your agenda.

--
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
http://letkeman.net/Photos

Kim Letkeman said:

I am following this test closely and responding frequently because I knew from the moment I saw those images that it was an attempt by you to slide in a negative result against the F70 ... a camera you have acquired 3 times and still shoot incorrectly.

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Dumb question but why would anyone buy a camera 3 times if they didn't like it that much?

I assume he didn't like it because you would surely keep it if you were happy. Makes no sense to me..if I have ever sold a camera or passed it along because I were not satisfied I would not buy the same model again for obvious reasons!

Barry Fitzgerald said:

Dumb question but why would anyone buy a camera 3 times if they didn't like it that much?

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No dumb at all ... Paul buys all the cameras ... and has a particularly strong beef with the F70 ... has had since day 1. I presume that he acquired it for the purposes of a thread such as this ...

Member said:

I assume he didn't like it because you would surely keep it if you were happy. Makes no sense to me..if I have ever sold a camera or passed it along because I were not satisfied I would not buy the same model again for obvious reasons!

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I would never buy a camera twice ... it is either good enough to use, or not.

--
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
http://letkeman.net/Photos

Kim Letkeman said:

PAUL TILL said:

OK but what is the point of a camera have auto DR or auto WB if it can't chose the right one when needed. Really the F70 should be shot as most people would use it and that’s in EXR Auto seeing as the other camera is in Auto.

Click to expand...

So what you are saying is that you test cameras as the least competent and most uninformed people would shoot them.

Instead, you should stop belligerently defending your poor test and reshoot with the best settings for each camera.

Of course, there might be an unstated agenda in play ... as I have written many times, if you don't state what you are trying to prove and how you are trying to prove it, then you can say and do anything you want and all was can say is ... what a waste of time to read any of that ...

By the way:

I am following this test closely and responding frequently because I knew from the moment I saw those images that it was an attempt by you to slide in a negative result against the F70 ... a camera you have acquired 3 times and still shoot incorrectly.

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LOL, if you like Kim I will also shoot with your recommended settings, but then it won't stand a chance will it.

I have no agenda, if I did not like the F70 how come I have owned 4 of them and why the other day when I needed a camera did I buy an F70?

We all know you won't hear anything negative about a camera you own and I did a blind test to see what people’s opinions where when they didn't know what shot what. I have not said anything negative about either camera.

Paul.

PAUL TILL said:

We all know you won't hear anything negative about a camera you own and I did a blind test to see what people’s opinions where when they didn't know what shot what. I have not said anything negative about either camera.

Paul.

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I dunno I know the F70exr has it's share of issues and I've a mental list of stuff I would def look at improving it's far from perfect and we all know that.

On the other hand the Casio isn't the world champ of everything either. Testing cameras at their default values out of the box as such is not a very good idea, as the DPR review shows. Thing is I've tried a few cameras on that review and I know for certain the reviewer is not using the optimal settings of some models..he's not taking into account NR processing (adjustable on some..others not) or levels of sharpening. So we have a flawed conclusion based on a bit of a rush job..

And the same for this as well..

Thing is I have a BSI sensor loaner camera here by me as well and I can do a BSI v EXR if I want to (as it is I've compared the DR on both models) But I did take the time (many weeks of use..and experimentation) to get the best out of both models. If you don't you're not informing anyone of much bar at default settings..of some use but the case for optimal use (or worst case as well) is pretty strong.

PAUL TILL said:

They are very easy to tell apart the Casio has the sort of greens that Ron likes. I have now turned the saturation down to -2 on the Casio as it's a bit too warm for my liking.

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LOL. I wonder if Ron will laugh at himself, or buy a new monitor.

PAUL TILL said:

All the top pictures are from the F70 but as you have spotted in the Clio shot I have named the F70 picture B where the previous 2 F70 pictures where A.

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You said that the F70EXR used (Auto) DR 200% for this shot, and it is the only one that is significantly superior to the FH100 shot. The metal of the car looks like, well metal (!) instead of a Kodak gray card.

For reference, the Renault Clio / miniature horse shots again, F70EXR then FH100:

So what's your take on the ISO800 shots then Barry? You asked for them.

Paul.

PAUL TILL said:

So what's your take on the ISO800 shots then Barry? You asked for them.

Paul.

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What ISO 800 shots?

CAcreeks said:

PAUL TILL said:

They are very easy to tell apart the Casio has the sort of greens that Ron likes. I have now turned the saturation down to -2 on the Casio as it's a bit too warm for my liking.

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LOL. I wonder if Ron will laugh at himself, or buy a new monitor.

CAcreeks said:

All the top pictures are from the F70 but as you have spotted in the Clio shot I have named the F70 picture B where the previous 2 F70 pictures where A.

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You said that the F70EXR used (Auto) DR 200% for this shot, and it is the only one that is significantly superior to the FH100 shot. The metal of the car looks like, well metal (!) instead of a Kodak gray card.

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In this shot the F70 is in P Mode, ISO100, Size M, DR400% I don't remember giving any settings for these! They were the last two shots of the day.

Paul.

Barry Fitzgerald said:

PAUL TILL said:

So what's your take on the ISO800 shots then Barry? You asked for them.

Paul.

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Member said:

What ISO 800 shots?

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The ones at the top of page 7! This is why I don't use Threaded view... stick it in flat view you will see more.

Paul.

To finish off today here are two ISO1600 comparisons exif is in the top two pictures. I used a custom WB on this one. As I have said before many times I would not use ISO1600 on any EXR camera and the Casio is also not very usable either.

Paul.





100% crop from the originals.

PAUL TILL said:

To finish off today here are two ISO1600 comparisons exif is in the top two pictures. I used a custom WB on this one. As I have said before many times I would not use ISO1600 on any EXR camera and the Casio is also not very usable either.

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Not the best subject (not much on fine details there) but clearly the Casio is applying a lot more NR.

I beg to differ on usable I've printed ISO 1600 shots from the F70exr and you can get good 5"x7" prints and 8"x6" ones off them no problems..if not a bit larger depending on how you tweak things.

Don't fear the noise but the real let down here is no raw on the Casio at higher ISO levels I'm sure this sensor can do decent work in low light..

remember that each single raw shot takes @ 12~14 seconds to develope and the camera is dead for that period of time.

The only reason I didn't keep the one I had was because the lens pops in and out every time you want to chimp an image....it was just too much noise and wasted time waiting for the in and out and in and out.

I found the sharpening to be nice, not to agressive. Casio improved their colors this year, much better. The af was not nearly as good as the CX line, nor the F70.
You could shoot the raw at say
wj
--
nikonricohandfuji

wymjym said:

remember that each single raw shot takes @ 12~14 seconds to develope and the camera is dead for that period of time.

The only reason I didn't keep the one I had was because the lens pops in and out every time you want to chimp an image....it was just too much noise and wasted time waiting for the in and out and in and out.

I found the sharpening to be nice, not to agressive. Casio improved their colors this year, much better. The af was not nearly as good as the CX line, nor the F70.
You could shoot the raw at say
wj
--
nikonricohandfuji

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The delay on the raw shoot to shoot is disappointing but not as much a let down as being stuck at ISO 200 max..they went to all the trouble to give you raw then snatch away the times you might use it most!

If find the NR too aggressive for my tastes even at base ISO. Yes it has a lot going for it but it's nowhere near the miracle some suggest.

Nothing is granted, but still this shoot out is of limited use overall. The CX range are IMO underrated though (they have great handling and good build and lethal macro mode) but they have their own set of quirks too. At least you can adjust the NR on jpeg files though, something all makers should offer including Fuji.

These were at iso 100, I was pleased overall…..the turtle is at full zoom (240mm).



Dreamie @ 200mm



I agree, the casio could have been so much more with just a pinch more salt, I think Fuji needs to reconsider their user interface.
wj

--
nikonricohandfuji

wymjym said:

I agree, the casio could have been so much more with just a pinch more salt, I think Fuji needs to reconsider their user interface.

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Fuji need to tweak a few things!

If they made the F button a custom menu that would help a lot (you pick what goes in there and WB needs to be in there at least)

And erm it's about time we got at least a review histogram too.

Exposure bracketing would be handy though EXR DR is pretty reliable. As ever things move slowly in Fuji land a bit too slow at times. Imagine an F70exr with good video, raw (at all ISO levels) the above stuff sorted out and a few other bits, control over Jpeg NR levels and a really good user interface (I like the CX3 for handling it kicks)

The mind would boggle! Fuji need to hire a few forum folks to sort things out

absoutely - and for God's sake, get rid of half of the unnecessary shooting modes, make it clear as a day when and how to activate "binned" modes in non-EXR modes (sorry but how on earth "file size M" translates to "sensor mode - binned pixels", cofusing suff if I ever seen one ), if not for anything else, then for poor reviewers to get their act straight .

regards
--

"I reject the reality and substitute my own" - is it your approach to discussion? Surely, not mine.

Barry Fitzgerald said:

wymjym said:

I agree, the casio could have been so much more with just a pinch more salt, I think Fuji needs to reconsider their user interface.

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Fuji need to tweak a few things!

If they made the F button a custom menu that would help a lot (you pick what goes in there and WB needs to be in there at least)

And erm it's about time we got at least a review histogram too.

Exposure bracketing would be handy though EXR DR is pretty reliable. As ever things move slowly in Fuji land a bit too slow at times. Imagine an F70exr with good video, raw (at all ISO levels) the above stuff sorted out and a few other bits, control over Jpeg NR levels and a really good user interface (I like the CX3 for handling it kicks)

The mind would boggle! Fuji need to hire a few forum folks to sort things out

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I noticed going from my F200 to the F70 that Fuji has moved backwards, the F button on the F200 has:

ISO
Dynamic range
Image size
Image quality
White balance
Film simulation

The F70 only has:

ISO
Image size
Film simulation

It's so frustrating having to delve into the menu just to change the WB or DR.

Paul.

PAUL TILL said:

I noticed going from my F200 to the F70 that Fuji has moved backwards, the F button on the F200 has:

ISO
Dynamic range
Image size
Image quality
White balance
Film simulation

The F70 only has:

ISO
Image size
Film simulation

It's so frustrating having to delve into the menu just to change the WB or DR.

Paul.

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You are correct the F menu is horribly underused on the F70 (and yet pages of them in the main menu) makes no sense at all..

WB is the one I use a lot though there is some hope in that you can move the main menu selection to WB and it will remember it (unless you power the camera off)

Fuji do need to wake up a bit at times but they've always been a bit like this good tech wrapped up in somewhat mediocre bodies.