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Not sure if my recently purchased 5dmkii is good for me

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bigkidneys

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Let me just say that I lurked on the board for almost a month before settling on buying a 7D and 5dmkii. I am new to DSLRs and saw that in the Canon world, everyone raved about these two cameras. I had the 7D for 2 weeks before getting the 5dmkii and to be honest, I am having some difficulties with it. The focus on it is really giving me fits. I focus on one thing (say the center of the flower, and the only thing on focus is teh exact center and before you make it out of the flower, the rest of it is out of focus. I am using center dot focus (one shot) but have used the auto select focus where all teh dots are available yet when I do that, the one thing I want to focus on is not being focused. With my 7D it is not an issue. I also notice that the DOF is extremely shallow on the 5D and I am assuming that this is expected according to everything I have read which apparently makes it great for portraits. That being said, is there a way for me to say get all the flower into focus? I even tried going to F8 and that didn't help. Obviously I am new to the whole photography thing and have been reading quite a bit on here and some of the magazines and books I have bought. I truthfully think it is me as obviously I need to learn to shoot but am just wondering considering I shot the same pictures previously with the 7D and it doesn't seem to be an issue there. Is there really that much difference between the focus systems and sensors in the two? Again, I appreciate any insight you can give. Thanks.
 
bigkidneys said:
Let me just say that I lurked on the board for almost a month before settling on buying a 7D and 5dmkii. I am new to DSLRs and saw that in the Canon world, everyone raved about these two cameras. I had the 7D for 2 weeks before getting the 5dmkii and to be honest, I am having some difficulties with it. The focus on it is really giving me fits. I focus on one thing (say the center of the flower, and the only thing on focus is teh exact center and before you make it out of the flower, the rest of it is out of focus. I am using center dot focus (one shot) but have used the auto select focus where all teh dots are available yet when I do that, the one thing I want to focus on is not being focused. With my 7D it is not an issue. I also notice that the DOF is extremely shallow on the 5D and I am assuming that this is expected according to everything I have read which apparently makes it great for portraits. That being said, is there a way for me to say get all the flower into focus? I even tried going to F8 and that didn't help. Obviously I am new to the whole photography thing and have been reading quite a bit on here and some of the magazines and books I have bought. I truthfully think it is me as obviously I need to learn to shoot but am just wondering considering I shot the same pictures previously with the 7D and it doesn't seem to be an issue there. Is there really that much difference between the focus systems and sensors in the two? Again, I appreciate any insight you can give. Thanks.
Click to expand...
I think the best thing is to put down the cameras for a bit, get a book on the basics of photography, and learn the principles. I doubt there is anything wrong with your camera, but from your description I could tell that there is a lack of understanding of basic principles. These cameras are precision tools. The more advanced the camera is the more advanced the photographer needs to be to utilize it's advanced features.

Also, when presenting the forum with problems you need to post a sample image, tell us what lens you are using, and what your settings were. Without that information it's impossible to help you. Case in point, you don't say if you were using the same lens in the same conditions when you shot the flower with the 7D and the 5D, thus your verbal comparison for us is totally meaningless.
 
I totally agree with iMac. You really need to learn the fundamentals of photography. You need to understand exposure and depth of field and, well, everything. You've purchased two wonderful cameras, but they are enthusiast cameras not pont and shoot type entry level DSLRs. There's no way to give you 40 or 50 years of knowledge in a forum like this.

That all said, your issue is not the cameras fault. The 7D is a crop camera. It's Canon's best APS-C camera. APS-C means it has a smaller sensor. The 5DMKII is a full frame sensored camera. The sensor is basically the size of 35mm film.

The larger the sensor, all else being equal, the shallower the depth of field. That's not really accurate but it's easier to explain this way. Depth of field is the distance in front and in back of the focus point that seems to be in focus.

If you want a deeper DOF of that flower, put the camera on a tripod and set the lens to something like f/16. Now either take a longer shutter speed or use the flash with a diffuser.
--
Cheers, Craig

Equipment in Plan via Profile
 
Thanks guys. Like I said, I am 100% positive it is me. As far as learning the basics, believe me, I have about 6 books here and about 10 magazines and I know it won't come overnight. I guess my frustration just lies in the different focus systems if you want to call it that on the cameras. Just put an EF 28-135 on the 5D to see if things changed and it didn't. As far as shooting in different apertures, I did that. Started at 4 and went up to 18 I believe to see if that would change the DOF and make it longer in the background so to speak. I know, my terminology stinks somewhat too but really, I get the idea. I have a trip to Ibiza, Spain this weekend and will take one with me for sure. I was thinking the 5Dmkii considering everyone raves about it being a great landscape camera although I know any camera can be good in the right hands. I will say that when I focus just using the center point, it is fine, just cuts out half the subject I was hoping to get. With that, i am sure changing the aperture will help somewhat. I have mostly been shooting in AV as it seemed easier for me ti understand and get some shots in compared to understanding what speed to shoot something. I will try and figure out how to post some pictures to demonstrate my uncanny ability to make bad pictures ;-) Thanks again for the help guys. Really wish there was a class here to help (Landstuhl, Germany) but the next one offered by the local college isn't until winter :-(
 
Guidenet said:
I totally agree with iMac. You really need to learn the fundamentals of photography. You need to understand exposure and depth of field and, well, everything. You've purchased two wonderful cameras, but they are enthusiast cameras not pont and shoot type entry level DSLRs. There's no way to give you 40 or 50 years of knowledge in a forum like this.

That all said, your issue is not the cameras fault. The 7D is a crop camera. It's Canon's best APS-C camera. APS-C means it has a smaller sensor. The 5DMKII is a full frame sensored camera. The sensor is basically the size of 35mm film.

The larger the sensor, all else being equal, the shallower the depth of field. That's not really accurate but it's easier to explain this way. Depth of field is the distance in front and in back of the focus point that seems to be in focus.

If you want a deeper DOF of that flower, put the camera on a tripod and set the lens to something like f/16. Now either take a longer shutter speed or use the flash with a diffuser.
--
Cheers, Craig

Equipment in Plan via Profile
Click to expand...
Got it. So, regardless of what lens I have (I have the 24-105 on the 5D and the 15-85 on the 7D) I will most likely always have a deeper DOF on the 7D as it is a smaller sensor? If that is right, I have noticed that which was one of the frustrations I was talking about. I noticed with the 7D and say the 15-85, I would get the whole flower and the background would seem more in focus where as the 5D and the 24-105 would only have a smaller area in the center in focus and the rest (moving out from center) would quickly blur. Just wondering why everyone says the 5D is a great landscape camera if the DOF is so shallow, how can you get great wide and detailed picture of say a mountain a good distance off? Just trying to understand. Thanks for the insight and education...
 






Not sure if they will show but both were taken with the 5dmkii with 24-105mm. Although I deleted the info from my camera, I believe both were taken at f5.6 in av mode so no idea what shutter speed. My question is regarding the focus as I am pretty sure it's supposed to be like this but just don't know why. Both were taken with the center focus square only selected. The one of the daisy or whatever it is in the bricks was focused on the yellow middle. Why did the camera decide to focus the front area and leave the back area blurred. In the one with the yellow flowers, the focus point was the middle area top flower middle. Why did it focus everything to the right and leave the left blurred? When I would try and increase the DOF with aperture, it did not help (f8-f10). I also used the auto selection focus and it just focuses on what is nearest which is never generally what I want which is why I elected to leave it in the center focus square. I read somewhere in a post here that by not using the auto select focus, you are not really using the camera's great focusing system which leaves you behind the power curve so to speak. If it won't focus on what I want, why bother? Again, I know this is likely something simple, just frustrated and hoping someone can give me a quick down and dirty on why the 5D does this when I don't seem to have this issue on the 7D.
 
Do NOT use the Auto Focus points. The camera gets it wrong and will always focus on the near front or elsewhere. Use the centre square for portraits or even flowers or the spot precision focus. (Square with spot in) Can't remember their proper names as I only had my 7D for 3 weeks. This site with Doug Brown tells you how to set up for Birding and what each one does. Worth a read.
http://www.deepgreenphotography.com/blog/?p=226

This next site is EXCELLENT. He tells you how to use the Focus Points and what they do.. Watch the video and have camera in your hands to put them into practise.

This video has taught me a lot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nBVeWszWrU&playnext_from=TL&videos=ikR5X1ki-ps

Good Luck.

--
MrScary (DennisR)
Swansea, Wales. UK
http://russ4tography.com/
http://copernob.jalbum.net/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scarecrowdr
 
bigkidneys said:
Guidenet said:
I totally agree with iMac. You really need to learn the fundamentals of photography. You need to understand exposure and depth of field and, well, everything. You've purchased two wonderful cameras, but they are enthusiast cameras not pont and shoot type entry level DSLRs. There's no way to give you 40 or 50 years of knowledge in a forum like this.

That all said, your issue is not the cameras fault. The 7D is a crop camera. It's Canon's best APS-C camera. APS-C means it has a smaller sensor. The 5DMKII is a full frame sensored camera. The sensor is basically the size of 35mm film.

The larger the sensor, all else being equal, the shallower the depth of field. That's not really accurate but it's easier to explain this way. Depth of field is the distance in front and in back of the focus point that seems to be in focus.

If you want a deeper DOF of that flower, put the camera on a tripod and set the lens to something like f/16. Now either take a longer shutter speed or use the flash with a diffuser.
--
Cheers, Craig

Equipment in Plan via Profile
Click to expand...
Got it. So, regardless of what lens I have (I have the 24-105 on the 5D and the 15-85 on the 7D) I will most likely always have a deeper DOF on the 7D as it is a smaller sensor?
Click to expand...
No. Depth of field is NOT a product of the sensor. It is a product of the distance to the subject, distance to the back ground, focal length an aperture. A larger sensor only affects the depth of field when the focal length, aperture, and field of view are the same... but to have the field of view the same means that the subject distance will be different, thus you are not comparing apples to apples. If you take the same shot from the same distance at the same focal length and aperture, the depth of field will be exactly the same! But your field of view will be different, with the full frame sensor giving you a wider field of view.
bigkidneys said:
If that is right, I have noticed that which was one of the frustrations I was talking about. I noticed with the 7D and say the 15-85, I would get the whole flower and the background would seem more in focus where as the 5D and the 24-105 would only have a smaller area in the center in focus and the rest (moving out from center) would quickly blur. Just wondering why everyone says the 5D is a great landscape camera if the DOF is so shallow, how can you get great wide and detailed picture of say a mountain a good distance off?
Click to expand...
Again depth of field is determined by subject distance, background distance and focal length. If you are shooting a long focal length with a nearby subject, your depth of field will be very narrow. If you are shooting wide angle at a distance subject your depth of field will be enormous.

Play around with this to see how the different parameters affect DOF. http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

--
Some cool cats that can use your help
http://www.wildlife-sanctuary.org

Even if you can't donate, please help spread the word.
 
A couple of points possibly:

1. When looking through the viewfinder, modern cameras always leave the aperture wide open unless you activate DOF preview button. So, the viewfinder is not an accurate representation of what F/8 or F/11 will give you in the photograph.

2. The plane of focus is just that, a plane. It is a rectangular box in front of the lens - if you have the camera tilted relative to the ground (like the daisy picture), then the plane of focus is tilted, and the upper part of the picture (in this case) being further away, is further out of focus then the lower part.

3. You can look up DOF calculators on the web to get an idea of how much DOF you get for a given aperture/subject distance/format. Typically DOF is about 50/50 in front and behind the point of focus.

--
EOS 50D, 20D, 10D, 630, A-1, FZ28, SD1000
-- Please remove the Quote option!
-- Why can't you edit more than once???
-- How about switching to real forum software?
 
The closer you are to a subject the less "infocus" the area is
The bigger the aperture=less focus (big being f4 small being f22)

The longer the focal length the less focus area (120mm being long 24mm being short)

A rough guide at say 80mm focal length

focus point set at a distance of 3 feet from the camera
f4=2inch
f5.6=3inch
f8=4inch
f11=6inch
f16=9inch
f22=1 foot

focus point set at 12 feet from camera
f4=3foot
f5.6=6 foot
f8=12foot
f11=20foot
f16=40foot
f22=80foot

The more in focus area required the more light you need Each of these numbers repesents a doubling of the light needed

This is done by longer shutter times,(add a tripod if it takes longer than 100th of a second)
flash (Tripod not required)
or higher iso settings. (not as clean)

--
is there money in this
 
bigkidneys said:
Let me just say that I lurked on the board for almost a month before settling on buying a 7D and 5dmkii. I am new to DSLRs and saw that in the Canon world, everyone raved about these two cameras. I had the 7D for 2 weeks before getting the 5dmkii and to be honest, I am having some difficulties with it. The focus on it is really giving me fits. I focus on one thing (say the center of the flower, and the only thing on focus is teh exact center and before you make it out of the flower, the rest of it is out of focus. I am using center dot focus (one shot) but have used the auto select focus where all teh dots are available yet when I do that, the one thing I want to focus on is not being focused. With my 7D it is not an issue. I also notice that the DOF is extremely shallow on the 5D and I am assuming that this is expected according to everything I have read which apparently makes it great for portraits. That being said, is there a way for me to say get all the flower into focus? I even tried going to F8 and that didn't help. Obviously I am new to the whole photography thing and have been reading quite a bit on here and some of the magazines and books I have bought. I truthfully think it is me as obviously I need to learn to shoot but am just wondering considering I shot the same pictures previously with the 7D and it doesn't seem to be an issue there. Is there really that much difference between the focus systems and sensors in the two? Again, I appreciate any insight you can give. Thanks.
Click to expand...
You might want to check if the AF is set for "Continious Focus." This would cause the lens to change focus with every movement of the camera.

Dave
 
bigkidneys said:
I believe both were taken at f5.6 in av mode
Click to expand...
Here we get to the crux of your problem.

The EXIF data is actually displayed above the photos in the forum entry and they weren't taken at f5.6.

Clearly you're not controlling exposure in the way you think you are.

This tells me you need to return to basics with your manual and a book on basic photographic techniques.

The first used both high ISO and a very narrow aperture and both will lead to degradation of image quality.

The second used a relatively wide aperture, but that gives you narrow depth of field and makes focus accuracy harder.

You really need to approach this by learning the fundamentals. I think you'll become very frustrated with this if you do not.

--
StephenG

Pentax K100D
Fuji S3 Pro
Fuji S9600
 
Don't buy a dslr such as a 5Dmkll as you're first DSLR.

Instead. purchase a cheaper dslr and learn on that before you start spending the big bucks on a camera body. By the time you know what you are doing the expensive camera might already be replaced with a newer model. IMO when you start spending big money on a body, you should already have a firm grasp on photography and be able to utilize that expensive body once you start using it. At least build a small lens collection before buying expensive bodies.

Just my opinion.
 
Thanks again for all the replies. Read a little more last night about DOF and as a few others mentioned in here, I was a little confused on that yesterday. I was thinking that keeping the same distance from the subject (very close) and going from a big to small aperture would increase my DOF and bring more of the picture into focus when I was completely wrong. Lesson learned there. Also watched some videos on the AF systems of both the 5D and 7D to get me up to speed on what to use when shooting certain things. I purchased both these cameras after having purchased a Nikon D5000 which I didn't like as it felt like a toy. I want to learn to take better pictures considering I am in Europe till January and money allows me to to get the models I normally wouldn't. As for lenses, I think I have a decent starter set. I have the 15-85 for the 7D, 28-135 that came with the 7D, 24-105 that came with the 5D, 70-200f4, and the 50mm1.8 Now, just need some more books to get me going and hopefully I will be shooting decent photos by years end. Oh, and a good program like aperture or something that downloads the picture info as I clearly never remember what they were shot at as I delete them from my card after I import them. Once again, thanks for all the responses. It is much appreciated!

Jason
 
bigkidneys said:
Thanks again for all the replies. Read a little more last night about DOF and as a few others mentioned in here, I was a little confused on that yesterday. I was thinking that keeping the same distance from the subject (very close) and going from a big to small aperture would increase my DOF and bring more of the picture into focus when I was completely wrong. Lesson learned there.
Click to expand...
For a given distance and focal length, a small aperture (ie, F22) will always have a larger DOF than a big aperture (ie F4).
bigkidneys said:
Also watched some videos on the AF systems of both the 5D and 7D to get me up to speed on what to use when shooting certain things. I purchased both these cameras after having purchased a Nikon D5000 which I didn't like as it felt like a toy. I want to learn to take better pictures considering I am in Europe till January and money allows me to to get the models I normally wouldn't.
Click to expand...
As mentioned - getting a high end camera is a waste for a beginner. Having the money doesn't mean you need to spend the money. Forget about gear and focus on technique.
bigkidneys said:
As for lenses, I think I have a decent starter set. I have the 15-85 for the 7D, 28-135 that came with the 7D, 24-105 that came with the 5D, 70-200f4, and the 50mm1.8
Click to expand...
That is a very decent starter set.
bigkidneys said:
Now, just need some more books to get me going and hopefully I will be shooting decent photos by years end. Oh, and a good program like aperture or something that downloads the picture info as I clearly never remember what they were shot at as I delete them from my card after I import them.
Click to expand...
Pretty much all programs download the picture info (Exif data is the proper term).
 
Yes, I figured shooting AV or TV would be the same between a 5Dmkii and a T2i or whatever lower model they have. As I mentioned before, I had a Nikon D5000 but it felt like a toy and I knew if I had the scenes available to me, I would likely take the easy way out if I was ever in a jam. That coupled with having a body that will old up in bumps and what not meant more to me at the moment. I have adobe photoshop elements 8 and none of the pictures I uploaded through it had the FL, aperture, shutter speed, etc. is that function embeded in the program and I just don't know about it? I picked up another book and plan on focusing on basics, technique, and learning the subtleties of the focusing systems between the cameras. Once again, thanks for alll the advice guys. This forum is great.
 
I'm sure your cameras will both take beautiful landscapes. Your test photos were not landscapes though, they were closeups of flowers.

In the first picture you had it set to F20, so try zooming out to the wide (24) of your lens and leave it at F20 or whatever small aperture. Point your camera at the wide world outside and focus on something a third of the way into the scene and take the shot. That should give you a deep depth of field with good focus all the way through.

Then perhaps try changing the aperture and keep taking shots of the same scene and then review all those shots and see what it does to your depth of field.

I would say read your books. When you see a new concept, put the book down, and go practice it on the camera. practice, practice practice.

It took me an embarrassingly long time to understand the terms used about aperture ...
small #= large aperture/wide open =shallower depth of field
large #= small aperture/stopped down= deeper depth of field

From beginner to another... good luck!
 
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