S230 - Disappointing ?

Keith25106 · Oct 13, 2002

I may be going against the grain on this one but I've looked closely at the samples posted here and I've noticed:

purple fringing
softness
strong noise on the flash pictures. Does it boost the ISO to 200 automatically to make up for the weak flash ?

I've also read some complaints about the AF which was already THE weakness of the previous generation.

Thoughts ?

Mark Krejcik · Oct 13, 2002

It really has to do with your expectation. The s230 is not a G2/S40 killer. Unfortunately it is not really even an s200 killer. Just a progression of that model.

Could Canon have put in better optics?
Yes.

Could Canon have put in better optics at this price range and in time for this product refresh cycle?

Maybe, maybe not. It would be awesome if some manufacturer would make a tiny camera and target it at the high-end prosumer market. No distortion, save files in raw mode, manual override for everything and a way to attach add-on lenses. There are probably not enough people who want this camera. At least there is no manufacturer brave enough to try.

You have to make a choice out of the products that are available. To me the s230 is not a bad choice at this time.

Keith said:
I may be going against the grain on this one but I've looked
closely at the samples posted here and I've noticed:

purple fringing

softness

strong noise on the flash pictures. Does it boost the ISO to 200

automatically to make up for the weak flash ?

I've also read some complaints about the AF which was already THE
weakness of the previous generation.

Thoughts ?

Raist3d · Oct 14, 2002

Keith said:
I may be going against the grain on this one but I've looked
closely at the samples posted here and I've noticed:

I have noticed that many people seem to ignore the blooming, chromatic aberrations and softness. I decided to shut up on the issue becuase (i) the owners are first-time elph owners (ii) they are truly enjoying themselves and (iii) the S230 is still even with all that, just like th e S200, at the top in its class compared to competitors

Keith25106 said:
purple fringing

softness

strong noise on the flash pictures. Does it boost the ISO to 200

automatically to make up for the weak flash ?

I noticed all of that too. In fact, the S230 seems to behave virtually identical to the S200. Now, i have noticed one situation where the S230 seems to behave different, for the better:

Mark posted this "reflections" shot:

http://www.pbase.com/markto/s230_shots&page=2

(that's the gallery, so click on the photo "Reflections")

I am inclined to think that the S200 would have either made the buildings too dark or overblown the sky. I noticed that the S230 can do this also (from pics of someone else) but it's probably improved over the S200.

Keith25106 said:
I've also read some complaints about the AF which was already THE
weakness of the previous generation.

That is a good Q.

Keith25106 said:
Thoughts ?

If I buy an S230, it is because of the extra video capability and more resolution, but not because I am expecting a real upgrade from the S200 in general.

I am waiting to see what the 5 megapixel small Olympus would be able to do.

Raist

w3 · Oct 14, 2002

Mark Krejcik said:
It really has to do with your expectation. The s230 is not a
G2/S40 killer. Unfortunately it is not really even an s200 killer.
Just a progression of that model.

Could Canon have put in better optics?
Yes.

Could Canon have put in better optics at this price range and in
time for this product refresh cycle?

Mark Krejcik said:
Maybe, maybe not. It would be awesome if some manufacturer would
make a tiny camera and target it at the high-end prosumer market.

Disagree. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying here.

It would be "AWFUL", not awesome, if "some manufacturer would make a tiny camera and target it at the high-end prosumer market."

I think Canon already did it with the S200/S330 or even S30/40. Targetting at the high-end prosumer market (with a halfway feature set) and actually having the Full Prosumer digicam feature set on a small digicam are two different things.

It would be much better off if Canon targets the tiny digital elphs at the CONSUMER/Point and Shoot/Convenient digicam market.

Use the advantage of the small size, focus on doing the basics well according to what Consumers want (Reliable AF in all lighting conditions, Sharp images and Good AUTO WB), good Auto Default Settings without the need for manual pre-shot adjustments or post-camera processing, emphasize on what Kodak calls "sophisticated simplicity", skip on some bells and whistles, and Canon should have an even bigger winner.

I don't want to see Canon trade Good Fundamental AUTO settings on what should have been a super convenient digicam for having some marginal manual adjustments haphazardly imitating some prosumer cameras' partial feature set.

Mark Krejcik said:
No distortion, save files in raw mode, manual override for
everything and a way to attach add-on lenses. There are probably
not enough people who want this camera. At least there is no
manufacturer brave enough to try.

Now, if you are talking about a good Canon Prosumer digicam (with a full and thoughtful feature set) that happens to be very small in size, I will be rushing to buy one.

I think we may be saying the same thing in different ways.

Mark Krejcik said:
You have to make a choice out of the products that are available.
To me the s230 is not a bad choice at this time.

Keith said:

I may be going against the grain on this one but I've looked
closely at the samples posted here and I've noticed:

purple fringing

softness

strong noise on the flash pictures. Does it boost the ISO to 200

automatically to make up for the weak flash ?

I've also read some complaints about the AF which was already THE
weakness of the previous generation.

Thoughts ?

Click to expand...

lownoise · Oct 14, 2002

I profited from the introduction of the s230 by finally buying the s200 I always wanted, the price of which has been dropping heavily after the announcement of the 230. So to me the s230 is no disappointment at all

I do think that there's a market for a camera the size and build quality of the s200/230 with a little more advanced features on the software side. Would it be too hard to introduce RAW mode, to show shutter speed / aperture on the display, allow a little more tweaking and speed operations up a bit? I'd buy one of those. The s200 is not a (analog!!!) Leica, but it has become the camera I use the most, because I can have it on me all the time. While I have encountered some of the issues addressed in this forum, I am overall very, very pleased with the s200s operations and image quality. I compared the image quality to that of a friends' coolpix 2500 and I liked the pictures coming from the s200 better (none of the dreaded Nikon "highlight clipping"). The s200 was a bit expensive, but it reliably does what it was built for. I don't expect the s230 to be worse, I can remember Phil writing in his s330 review that the optics performance of this model would also accomodate a 3MP sensor. I guess that goes for the s200/230, too.

kj moselius · Oct 14, 2002

I have yet to read a review of a camera that satisfies everybody. No camera has it all, so choices/sacrifices obviously need to be made. The key issue for the elphs are size, and that's it. If there is a camera that takes consistenly better pictures at that size/build quality/ and price, I would have loved to have found it before I bought an s230. Sure I'd love to have a G3, or a Nikon 5700, on and on... But price and size are issues. These things are not pro-level yet. Having said that, I'm definately not the one to demonstrate the maximum capabilities of the s230. I'm completely inexperienced. But to my eyes the pics seem fairly good, and have met my expectations. I have noticed a little of the fringing and aliasing. But my god, how close are you gonna look at these things! This is a snapshot camera, or for 8 x 10's max. Even at that size I think nobody but professional photographers would notice such defects.

The one thing that has bothered me on some shots is the auto-focus. I need to do some more investigating to come to a conclusion. I haven't really been able to tinker with it all that much.

Raist3d said:
Keith said:

I may be going against the grain on this one but I've looked
closely at the samples posted here and I've noticed:

Click to expand...

I have noticed that many people seem to ignore the blooming,
chromatic aberrations and softness. I decided to shut up on the
issue becuase (i) the owners are first-time elph owners (ii) they
are truly enjoying themselves and (iii) the S230 is still even with
all that, just like th e S200, at the top in its class compared to
competitors

Member said:

purple fringing

softness

strong noise on the flash pictures. Does it boost the ISO to 200

automatically to make up for the weak flash ?

Click to expand...

I noticed all of that too. In fact, the S230 seems to behave
virtually identical to the S200. Now, i have noticed one situation
where the S230 seems to behave different, for the better:

Mark posted this "reflections" shot:

http://www.pbase.com/markto/s230_shots&page=2

(that's the gallery, so click on the photo "Reflections")

I am inclined to think that the S200 would have either made the
buildings too dark or overblown the sky. I noticed that the S230
can do this also (from pics of someone else) but it's probably
improved over the S200.

Member said:

I've also read some complaints about the AF which was already THE
weakness of the previous generation.

Click to expand...

That is a good Q.

Member said:

Thoughts ?

Click to expand...

If I buy an S230, it is because of the extra video capability and
more resolution, but not because I am expecting a real upgrade from
the S200 in general.

I am waiting to see what the 5 megapixel small Olympus would be
able to do.

Raist

w3 · Oct 14, 2002

Lownoise said:
I profited from the introduction of the s230 by finally buying the
s200 I always wanted, the price of which has been dropping heavily
after the announcement of the 230. So to me the s230 is no
disappointment at all

I do think that there's a market for a camera the size and build
quality of the s200/230 with a little more advanced features on the
software side.

Yes, but not at the expense of sacrificing the basics!!! Not if by doing so, Canon had to trade off good AUTO performance against some marginal manual features!

(For examples:

1. S200/S330 earned praises for having WB presets that perform marginally and require pre-shot adjustment. But its AUTO WB was terrible under most artificial/flash lighting conditions.

2. S200/S330 has Low Light Focus Assist lamp. But with or without the Assist Lamp, S200/S330 has trouble getting a Focus Lock under dim light and performs worse than other digicams WITHOUT any Focus Assist Lamp.

3. S200/S330 defaults to soft (and low contrast) images and yet gives users a choice for even LESS Sharpening as if Canon thought that the default images were too sharp already. The idea of softer images is to help preserve more detail particularly for the "Pros" to play with during post-camera processing . I don't mind Canon doing that on a 5MP Prosumer type of digicams. I think a slightly softer 5MP image (particularly for landscape or scenery) will look fine with or without post-camera processing. But I do mind Canon doing that on a 2MP Consumer/Point & Shoot/Convenient digicam used mostly for snap shots of people. For 2MP snap shots of people, the digicam should make up its mind on the outlines to make images sharp even though it may introduce a little bit of artifacts.

It is a case of Design/Marketing Mismatch.)

lownoise said:
Would it be too hard to introduce RAW mode, to show
shutter speed / aperture on the display, allow a little more
tweaking and speed operations up a bit? I'd buy one of those.

Me too. If a well designed Prosumer digicam with a well thought through set of features HAPPENS to be very small, I will love it.

lownoise said:
The
s200 is not a (analog!!!) Leica, but it has become the camera I use
the most,

If you don't mind me asking, what other digicams do you have or use?

lownoise said:
cause I can have it on me all the time.

Me too, but I am only using my S200/330 as an emergency digicam.

lownoise said:
while I have
encountered some of the issues addressed in this forum, I am
overall very, very pleased with the s200s operations and image
quality.

I disagree there. Yes, S200/S330's operations can be FANCY (good forms) but the image quality leaves lots to be desired (substance not so good), in my opinion.

Canon, please make and keep the digital elphs simple but elegant. Before you do or add anything else on them, make sure the digicams perform very well with ALL AUTO SETTINGS first.

lownoise said:
I compared the image quality to that of a friends' coolpix
2500 and I liked the pictures coming from the s200 better (none of
the dreaded Nikon "highlight clipping"). The s200 was a bit
expensive, but it reliably does what it was built for. I don't
expect the s230 to be worse, I can remember Phil writing in his
s330 review that the optics performance of this model would also
accomodate a 3MP sensor. I guess that goes for the s200/230, too.

Mark Krejcik · Oct 14, 2002

I think we are basically agreeing. We would both like a camera that you can turn on, point & shoot resulting in stunning well exposed, colored, distortion free, focused pictures. Unfortunately life is not that easy since you and I could point a camera at the same place but envision the resulting shot differently based on what we want to emphasize. I think Canon took a step in the right direction with the digic processor and the photospace database.

We do disagree in that I think adding manual settings does not have to detract from the ease of a point and shoot camera. What difference does it make to someone shooting in full auto mode if I can choose the aperture in manual mode.

The problems are not as big as they are made out to be. Focus is dead on 95% of the time. WB works well and it works even better if you tell it the lighting situation. Sharpness is excellent if you don't shake the camera (the camera does warn you that you are about to take a shot that is susceptible to shake).

w3 said:
It would be much better off if Canon targets the tiny digital elphs
at the CONSUMER/Point and Shoot/Convenient digicam market.

Use the advantage of the small size, focus on doing the basics well
according to what Consumers want (Reliable AF in all lighting
conditions, Sharp images and Good AUTO WB), good Auto Default
Settings without the need for manual pre-shot adjustments or
post-camera processing, emphasize on what Kodak calls
"sophisticated simplicity", skip on some bells and whistles, and
Canon should have an even bigger winner.

I don't want to see Canon trade Good Fundamental AUTO settings on
what should have been a super convenient digicam for having some
marginal manual adjustments haphazardly imitating some prosumer
cameras' partial feature set.

w3 said:

No distortion, save files in raw mode, manual override for
everything and a way to attach add-on lenses. There are probably
not enough people who want this camera. At least there is no
manufacturer brave enough to try.

Click to expand...

Now, if you are talking about a good Canon Prosumer digicam (with a
full and thoughtful feature set) that happens to be very small in
size, I will be rushing to buy one.

I think we may be saying the same thing in different ways.

w3 · Oct 14, 2002

moselius said:
I have yet to read a review of a camera that satisfies everybody.
No camera has it all, so choices/sacrifices obviously need to be
made. The key issue for the elphs are size, and that's it.

That is exactly the point. Agree. Wonder if Canon knows that and keep digital elphs SMALL, simple and easy to take GOOD snap shots.

kj moselius said:
If
there is a camera that takes consistenly better pictures at that
size/build quality/ and price, I would have loved to have found it
before I bought an s230.

Canon themselves could have made a better one if they work on improving the basics and fundamentals (simple, easy and good snap shots) instead of trying to make it halfway like a prosumer digicam.

kj moselius said:
Sure I'd love to have a G3, or a Nikon
5700, on and on... But price and size are issues. These things
are not pro-level yet.

Digital elphs don't have to be at pro-level!!! That is my point.

kj moselius said:
Having said that, I'm definately not the
one to demonstrate the maximum capabilities of the s230. I'm
completely inexperienced. But to my eyes the pics seem fairly
good, and have met my expectations. I have noticed a little of the
fringing and aliasing. But my god, how close are you gonna look at
these things! This is a snapshot camera, or for 8 x 10's max.

This is a snaphsot camera, EXACTLY. I hope Canon realizes that.

kj moselius said:
Even at that size I think nobody but professional photographers
would notice such defects.

May not agree there.

Have you tried some indoor shots with Flash yet? Do you notice how S230's AUTO WB performs?

I don't have the S230. But I can easily see that S200/S330 images are soft (lower contrast). Softer images may be fine if S200/S330 are 5MP digicams taking landscape or scenery shots. However, 2MP snapshots should be sharper.

kj moselius said:
The one thing that has bothered me on some shots is the auto-focus.
I need to do some more investigating to come to a conclusion. I
haven't really been able to tinker with it all that much.

Well, you notice the Auto-Focus issue. But Canon supposedly has implemented something new and more advanced there. Please look into that and keep us updated. Thanks in advance.

kj moselius said:
Raist3d said:

Keith said:

I may be going against the grain on this one but I've looked
closely at the samples posted here and I've noticed:

Click to expand...

I have noticed that many people seem to ignore the blooming,
chromatic aberrations and softness. I decided to shut up on the
issue becuase (i) the owners are first-time elph owners (ii) they
are truly enjoying themselves and (iii) the S230 is still even with
all that, just like th e S200, at the top in its class compared to
competitors

kj moselius said:

purple fringing

softness

strong noise on the flash pictures. Does it boost the ISO to 200

automatically to make up for the weak flash ?

Click to expand...

I noticed all of that too. In fact, the S230 seems to behave
virtually identical to the S200. Now, i have noticed one situation
where the S230 seems to behave different, for the better:

Mark posted this "reflections" shot:

http://www.pbase.com/markto/s230_shots&page=2

(that's the gallery, so click on the photo "Reflections")

I am inclined to think that the S200 would have either made the
buildings too dark or overblown the sky. I noticed that the S230
can do this also (from pics of someone else) but it's probably
improved over the S200.

kj moselius said:

I've also read some complaints about the AF which was already THE
weakness of the previous generation.

Click to expand...

That is a good Q.

kj moselius said:

Thoughts ?

Click to expand...

If I buy an S230, it is because of the extra video capability and
more resolution, but not because I am expecting a real upgrade from
the S200 in general.

I am waiting to see what the 5 megapixel small Olympus would be
able to do.

Raist

Click to expand...

w3 · Oct 14, 2002

Mark Krejcik said:
I think we are basically agreeing. We would both like a camera
that you can turn on, point & shoot resulting in stunning well
exposed, colored, distortion free, focused pictures. Unfortunately
life is not that easy since you and I could point a camera at the
same place but envision the resulting shot differently based on
what we want to emphasize.

Agree.

Mark Krejcik said:
I think Canon took a step in the right
direction with the digic processor and the photospace database.

I don't know yet. I have yet to see more reports or the results first hand.

Mark Krejcik said:
We do disagree in that I think adding manual settings does not have
to detract from the ease of a point and shoot camera. What
difference does it make to someone shooting in full auto mode if I
can choose the aperture in manual mode.

We may not even disagree there. Agree, manual settings don't have to detract from the ease of a point and shooter. But the AUTO settings should produce very good results to start with for a point and shooter. Lets use S200/S330's WB as an example.

I don't see why adding WB presets would make the AUTO WB performs worse. Maybe it would and maybe it wouldn't. But if Canon know that they have a problem with AUTO WB, and instead of spending quality engineering time to perfect the AUTO WB, an easier FIX for Canon may be to add some manual Presets. And I can imagine Canon's Marketing jumping up and down saying "yes, yes, yes ... and heck, we can even earn extra points from reviewers for adding WB presets (without fixing the AUTO WB problem), so go ahead." Well, a better AUTO WB would have rendered WB presets and any pre-shot selections unnecessary, which would be very nice for such a point and shooter.

Sure, what difference does it make to someone shooting in full auto mode or someone choosing something in manual mode, AS LONG AS THE RESULTS ARE BOTH GOOD. But the problem here is: S200/S330's AUTO WB is bad under artificial/flash lights. And even S200/S330's WB Presets (a manual selection) produce results that are not as good as some Kodak point and shoot digicams with AUTO WB (and some of those don't even have WB Presets - don't need to have them).

Mark Krejcik said:
The problems are not as big as they are made out to be. Focus is
dead on 95% of the time. WB works well and it works even better if
you tell it the lighting situation.

Have you tried S230's AUTO WB taking indoor/flash photos yet?

Mark Krejcik said:
Sharpness is excellent if you
don't shake the camera (the camera does warn you that you are about
to take a shot that is susceptible to shake).

Maybe the 3MP help define even a softer image better. I will keep an open mind there.

Mark Krejcik said:
Mark Krejcik said:

It would be much better off if Canon targets the tiny digital elphs
at the CONSUMER/Point and Shoot/Convenient digicam market.

Use the advantage of the small size, focus on doing the basics well
according to what Consumers want (Reliable AF in all lighting
conditions, Sharp images and Good AUTO WB), good Auto Default
Settings without the need for manual pre-shot adjustments or
post-camera processing, emphasize on what Kodak calls
"sophisticated simplicity", skip on some bells and whistles, and
Canon should have an even bigger winner.

I don't want to see Canon trade Good Fundamental AUTO settings on
what should have been a super convenient digicam for having some
marginal manual adjustments haphazardly imitating some prosumer
cameras' partial feature set.

Mark Krejcik said:

No distortion, save files in raw mode, manual override for
everything and a way to attach add-on lenses. There are probably
not enough people who want this camera. At least there is no
manufacturer brave enough to try.

Click to expand...

Now, if you are talking about a good Canon Prosumer digicam (with a
full and thoughtful feature set) that happens to be very small in
size, I will be rushing to buy one.

I think we may be saying the same thing in different ways.

Click to expand...

Mark Krejcik · Oct 14, 2002

w3 said:
Yes, but not at the expense of sacrificing the basics!!! Not if by
doing so, Canon had to trade off good AUTO performance against some
marginal manual features!

(For examples:

1. S200/S330 earned praises for having WB presets that perform
marginally and require pre-shot adjustment. But its AUTO WB was
terrible under most artificial/flash lighting conditions.

Do you really think Canon said "We will spend time on WB presets and skimp on the Auto WB". I think the general WB algorithms are the same for a manufacturers entire line of cameras. Sony's WB differs from Canon's but one Canon camera's WB is very similar to another’s. The presets are just the auto WB balance algorithm with a few parameters changed. I don't think you realize how easy this is to do from a software point of view. Nothing was taken away from the auto WB to give you these features.

w3 said:
2. S200/S330 has Low Light Focus Assist lamp. But with or without
the Assist Lamp, S200/S330 has trouble getting a Focus Lock under
dim light and performs worse than other digicams WITHOUT any Focus
Assist Lamp.

Night focus works with the focus assist lamp! You only have to make sure that the lamp is pointing at the object you are trying to focus on. I have seen people trying to focus a night scene but lamp is pointing off into space somewhere or hitting a uniform colored wall. The camera must have some detail to focus on in order to work.

w3 said:
3. S200/S330 defaults to soft (and low contrast) images and yet
gives users a choice for even LESS Sharpening as if Canon thought
that the default images were too sharp already. The idea of softer
images is to help preserve more detail particularly for the "Pros"
to play with during post-camera processing . I don't mind Canon
doing that on a 5MP Prosumer type of digicams. I think a slightly
softer 5MP image (particularly for landscape or scenery) will look
fine with or without post-camera processing. But I do mind Canon
doing that on a 2MP Consumer/Point & Shoot/Convenient digicam used
mostly for snap shots of people. For 2MP snap shots of people, the
digicam should make up its mind on the outlines to make images
sharp even though it may introduce a little bit of artifacts.

It is a case of Design/Marketing Mismatch.)

This is a point on which we agree. This camera does not need more softness. I don't think it took extra development time to put this feature in. In fact it probably would have taken more time to remove it since it exists on Canon's other cameras.

w3 said:
w3 said:

Would it be too hard to introduce RAW mode, to show
shutter speed / aperture on the display, allow a little more
tweaking and speed operations up a bit? I'd buy one of those.

Click to expand...

It would have been nice if they left this feature in. Surprisingly enough the manual indicates the camera can display raw images on the LCD taken by other Canon cameras. This proves the functionality is 90% there already.

Bottom line is that the s230, s45 and G3 all have a digic processor and therefore share the same software. Nobody is going out of there way to design special algorithms for each cam (just tweak them a bit). If you delete all the extra features you will NOT get better auto features.

The Sony U20 sounds like it may be the camera for you. No manual settings at all. Not even a choice of how much to compress the image. Do you think it has better auto behaviour than the 717 because of this?

rroberrt · Oct 14, 2002

kj moselius said:
The one thing that has bothered me on some shots is the auto-focus.
I need to do some more investigating to come to a conclusion. I
haven't really been able to tinker with it all that much.

Me too. I'd like to know how your tinkering works out.

My brand new cam is a S-330, but I believe the method (and idiosyncracys) are similar to the 230, so if I may......

My manual states, ".....AiAF uses a broad metering field to calculate the focal distance with high precision.......even when subject is slightly off center." .... Being more used to manual focussing, I find this concept hard to accept. How can the camera know what I want to emphasize, other than a few set situations?

For now, until I understand it better, AiAF is switched off. I use the center frame to focus and lock it.

Of course I'm losing a feature and I would appreciate anyone explaining how best to use AiAF.

--
rregarrds, rroberrt

'sfunny how my photo-phobic kids became shutterbug parents.

Raist3d · Oct 14, 2002

moselius said:
I have yet to read a review of a camera that satisfies everybody.
No camera has it all, so choices/sacrifices obviously need to be
made. The key issue for the elphs are size, and that's it. If
there is a camera that takes consistenly better pictures at that
size/build quality/ and price, I would have loved to have found it
before I bought an s230. Sure I'd love to have a G3, or a Nikon
5700, on and on... But price and size are issues. These things
are not pro-level yet. Having said that, I'm definately not the
one to demonstrate the maximum capabilities of the s230. I'm
completely inexperienced. But to my eyes the pics seem fairly
good, and have met my expectations. I have noticed a little of the
fringing and aliasing. But my god, how close are you gonna look at
these things! This is a snapshot camera, or for 8 x 10's max.
Even at that size I think nobody but professional photographers
would notice such defects.

Moselious, like I said, the S230 is a best in its class. You would have to read my whole ordeal when I upgraded to understand where I am coming from. I used to have the S110v. When Canon announced the S200 I sold it blindly thinking that the S200 would undoubltly have better picture quality. It turned out that for average daily pics, in my opinion it's not true.

The problems I mentioned were not problems on the S110v. It is for this reason, that Canon showed before that they could do it right, that I mention it and I am not upgrading to the S230.

I am not paying $400 to have a "3.1 mega pixel S200" I want a "3.1 mega pixel S110v" with night shot capabilities (which the S200 and S230 do pretty well).

The S110v is pretty much exactly the same size as your S230, yet it had it right. And again, yes, the S230 is probably best in its class.

Raist

kj moselius said:
The one thing that has bothered me on some shots is the auto-focus.
I need to do some more investigating to come to a conclusion. I
haven't really been able to tinker with it all that much.

Raist3d said:

Keith said:

I may be going against the grain on this one but I've looked
closely at the samples posted here and I've noticed:

Click to expand...

I have noticed that many people seem to ignore the blooming,
chromatic aberrations and softness. I decided to shut up on the
issue becuase (i) the owners are first-time elph owners (ii) they
are truly enjoying themselves and (iii) the S230 is still even with
all that, just like th e S200, at the top in its class compared to
competitors

kj moselius said:

purple fringing

softness

strong noise on the flash pictures. Does it boost the ISO to 200

automatically to make up for the weak flash ?

Click to expand...

I noticed all of that too. In fact, the S230 seems to behave
virtually identical to the S200. Now, i have noticed one situation
where the S230 seems to behave different, for the better:

Mark posted this "reflections" shot:

http://www.pbase.com/markto/s230_shots&page=2

(that's the gallery, so click on the photo "Reflections")

I am inclined to think that the S200 would have either made the
buildings too dark or overblown the sky. I noticed that the S230
can do this also (from pics of someone else) but it's probably
improved over the S200.

kj moselius said:

I've also read some complaints about the AF which was already THE
weakness of the previous generation.

Click to expand...

That is a good Q.

kj moselius said:

Thoughts ?

Click to expand...

If I buy an S230, it is because of the extra video capability and
more resolution, but not because I am expecting a real upgrade from
the S200 in general.

I am waiting to see what the 5 megapixel small Olympus would be
able to do.

Raist

Click to expand...

Raist3d · Oct 14, 2002

kj moselius said:
The one thing that has bothered me on some shots is the auto-focus.
I need to do some more investigating to come to a conclusion. I
haven't really been able to tinker with it all that much.

Give this one a try: set your camera to macro, and wide angle (less zoom, just 1x). IF you have the assist lamp on you should be able to focus i fyou keep your minimum distance (about 3.9 inches from the subject).

It should focus fine.

Now, unset the macro and use normal mode. If there's enough light it should focus, (and you have again, to keep your distance.. keep about 2-3 feet this time). If you have the auto focus assist lamp on, then if it shouldn't still on average be able to focus.

At least this is the way the S200 behaves.

Raist

kj moselius said:
Raist3d said:

Keith said:

I may be going against the grain on this one but I've looked
closely at the samples posted here and I've noticed:

Click to expand...

I have noticed that many people seem to ignore the blooming,
chromatic aberrations and softness. I decided to shut up on the
issue becuase (i) the owners are first-time elph owners (ii) they
are truly enjoying themselves and (iii) the S230 is still even with
all that, just like th e S200, at the top in its class compared to
competitors

kj moselius said:

purple fringing

softness

strong noise on the flash pictures. Does it boost the ISO to 200

automatically to make up for the weak flash ?

Click to expand...

I noticed all of that too. In fact, the S230 seems to behave
virtually identical to the S200. Now, i have noticed one situation
where the S230 seems to behave different, for the better:

Mark posted this "reflections" shot:

http://www.pbase.com/markto/s230_shots&page=2

(that's the gallery, so click on the photo "Reflections")

I am inclined to think that the S200 would have either made the
buildings too dark or overblown the sky. I noticed that the S230
can do this also (from pics of someone else) but it's probably
improved over the S200.

kj moselius said:

I've also read some complaints about the AF which was already THE
weakness of the previous generation.

Click to expand...

That is a good Q.

kj moselius said:

Thoughts ?

Click to expand...

If I buy an S230, it is because of the extra video capability and
more resolution, but not because I am expecting a real upgrade from
the S200 in general.

I am waiting to see what the 5 megapixel small Olympus would be
able to do.

Raist

Click to expand...

Mark Krejcik · Oct 14, 2002

w3 said:
I don't see why adding WB presets would make the AUTO WB performs
worse. Maybe it would and maybe it wouldn't. But if Canon know
that they have a problem with AUTO WB, and instead of spending
quality engineering time to perfect the AUTO WB, an easier FIX for
Canon may be to add some manual Presets. And I can imagine Canon's
Marketing jumping up and down saying "yes, yes, yes ... and heck,
we can even earn extra points from reviewers for adding WB presets
(without fixing the AUTO WB problem), so go ahead." Well, a better
AUTO WB would have rendered WB presets and any pre-shot selections
unnecessary, which would be very nice for such a point and shooter.

You have a point here. I have seen this kind of corporate behaviour in places I have worked. If there is a work around don't fix the problem. If other companies start making a better WB (I don't agree that Kodak's is better) this maybe incentive enough to improve. Like you point out your average camera user will not change this setting. So if they are in a store evaluating cameras they will pick the one producing the best picture on auto. I have a friend with an Nikon 5700 who has not figured out how to set the WB.

Similarly camera manufacturers are tending towards vivid colors to make good impressions in camera stores but these colors are just too much sometimes. I like the fact that the s230 has a neutral color setting.

w3 said:
Have you tried S230's AUTO WB taking indoor/flash photos yet?

I have. http://www.pbase.com/image/5810854 . Note the wall is not white but my shirt is. The colors look good to me though I never like the effect from a camera flash shot.

kj moselius · Oct 14, 2002

Yeah I've heard a lot of posters talking about the merits of the s110v. What is the deal with that camera? What did Canon eliminate or screw up in the later models? I couldn't agree more about not upgrading. If I had a 2 MP elph, that would satisfy me for the snaps. I just happened to be in a buying position, and figured, hey I might as well buy the latest and greatest.

Raist3d said:
moselius said:

I have yet to read a review of a camera that satisfies everybody.
No camera has it all, so choices/sacrifices obviously need to be
made. The key issue for the elphs are size, and that's it. If
there is a camera that takes consistenly better pictures at that
size/build quality/ and price, I would have loved to have found it
before I bought an s230. Sure I'd love to have a G3, or a Nikon
5700, on and on... But price and size are issues. These things
are not pro-level yet. Having said that, I'm definately not the
one to demonstrate the maximum capabilities of the s230. I'm
completely inexperienced. But to my eyes the pics seem fairly
good, and have met my expectations. I have noticed a little of the
fringing and aliasing. But my god, how close are you gonna look at
these things! This is a snapshot camera, or for 8 x 10's max.
Even at that size I think nobody but professional photographers
would notice such defects.

Click to expand...

Moselious, like I said, the S230 is a best in its class. You would
have to read my whole ordeal when I upgraded to understand where I
am coming from. I used to have the S110v. When Canon announced
the S200 I sold it blindly thinking that the S200 would undoubltly
have better picture quality. It turned out that for average daily
pics, in my opinion it's not true.

The problems I mentioned were not problems on the S110v. It is for
this reason, that Canon showed before that they could do it right,
that I mention it and I am not upgrading to the S230.

I am not paying $400 to have a "3.1 mega pixel S200" I want a "3.1
mega pixel S110v" with night shot capabilities (which the S200 and
S230 do pretty well).

The S110v is pretty much exactly the same size as your S230, yet it
had it right. And again, yes, the S230 is probably best in its
class.

Raist

Member said:

The one thing that has bothered me on some shots is the auto-focus.
I need to do some more investigating to come to a conclusion. I
haven't really been able to tinker with it all that much.

Raist3d said:

Keith said:

I may be going against the grain on this one but I've looked
closely at the samples posted here and I've noticed:

Click to expand...

I have noticed that many people seem to ignore the blooming,
chromatic aberrations and softness. I decided to shut up on the
issue becuase (i) the owners are first-time elph owners (ii) they
are truly enjoying themselves and (iii) the S230 is still even with
all that, just like th e S200, at the top in its class compared to
competitors

Member said:

purple fringing

softness

strong noise on the flash pictures. Does it boost the ISO to 200

automatically to make up for the weak flash ?

Click to expand...

I noticed all of that too. In fact, the S230 seems to behave
virtually identical to the S200. Now, i have noticed one situation
where the S230 seems to behave different, for the better:

Mark posted this "reflections" shot:

http://www.pbase.com/markto/s230_shots&page=2

(that's the gallery, so click on the photo "Reflections")

I am inclined to think that the S200 would have either made the
buildings too dark or overblown the sky. I noticed that the S230
can do this also (from pics of someone else) but it's probably
improved over the S200.

Member said:

I've also read some complaints about the AF which was already THE
weakness of the previous generation.

Click to expand...

That is a good Q.

Member said:

Thoughts ?

Click to expand...

If I buy an S230, it is because of the extra video capability and
more resolution, but not because I am expecting a real upgrade from
the S200 in general.

I am waiting to see what the 5 megapixel small Olympus would be
able to do.

Raist

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

kj moselius · Oct 14, 2002

cool, thanks for the advice Raist. I'll try it out and let you know how it goes.

Raist3d said:
Member said:

The one thing that has bothered me on some shots is the auto-focus.
I need to do some more investigating to come to a conclusion. I
haven't really been able to tinker with it all that much.

Click to expand...

Give this one a try: set your camera to macro, and wide angle (less
zoom, just 1x). IF you have the assist lamp on you should be able
to focus i fyou keep your minimum distance (about 3.9 inches from
the subject).

It should focus fine.

Now, unset the macro and use normal mode. If there's enough light
it should focus, (and you have again, to keep your distance.. keep
about 2-3 feet this time). If you have the auto focus assist lamp
on, then if it shouldn't still on average be able to focus.

At least this is the way the S200 behaves.

Raist

Member said:

Raist3d said:

Keith said:

I may be going against the grain on this one but I've looked
closely at the samples posted here and I've noticed:

Click to expand...

I have noticed that many people seem to ignore the blooming,
chromatic aberrations and softness. I decided to shut up on the
issue becuase (i) the owners are first-time elph owners (ii) they
are truly enjoying themselves and (iii) the S230 is still even with
all that, just like th e S200, at the top in its class compared to
competitors

Member said:

purple fringing

softness

strong noise on the flash pictures. Does it boost the ISO to 200

automatically to make up for the weak flash ?

Click to expand...

I noticed all of that too. In fact, the S230 seems to behave
virtually identical to the S200. Now, i have noticed one situation
where the S230 seems to behave different, for the better:

Mark posted this "reflections" shot:

http://www.pbase.com/markto/s230_shots&page=2

(that's the gallery, so click on the photo "Reflections")

I am inclined to think that the S200 would have either made the
buildings too dark or overblown the sky. I noticed that the S230
can do this also (from pics of someone else) but it's probably
improved over the S200.

Member said:

I've also read some complaints about the AF which was already THE
weakness of the previous generation.

Click to expand...

That is a good Q.

Member said:

Thoughts ?

Click to expand...

If I buy an S230, it is because of the extra video capability and
more resolution, but not because I am expecting a real upgrade from
the S200 in general.

I am waiting to see what the 5 megapixel small Olympus would be
able to do.

Raist

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Raist3d · Oct 14, 2002

moselius said:
Yeah I've heard a lot of posters talking about the merits of the
s110v. What is the deal with that camera? What did Canon
eliminate or screw up in the later models?

The S110v had Chromatic Aberrations on rare ocassions

It also did not have blooming on whites or bright colors (like the S200 and S230 from what I notice)
It was for the most part razor sharp in the color definition
Seemed to have better autofocus performance than the S200 (and the S230? )

Here, take a look:

The dog picture is interesting because it was a shot in the dark and the S110v focused pretty well. There's no chroma aberrations or softness in the bright areas.

To be fair the S200 sometimes seems to capture some colors better, and it definitively wins in the flash range and night shots category.

You can check my S200 shots at:

http://www.pbase.com/raist3d

kj moselius said:
I couldn't agree more
about not upgrading. If I had a 2 MP elph, that would satisfy me
for the snaps. I just happened to be in a buying position, and
figured, hey I might as well buy the latest and greatest.

Oh that's perfectly understandable. If had no camera the S230 would certainly be a top consideration.

Right now I am looking at:

pray Canon brings the S45
Olympus C-50
Minolta Dimage Xi

Of all these I have only seen company pictures of the S45 and Dimage Xi. The DimageXi seems to be doing nice, but again those are company pictures. The s45 seems to potentially have nailed down chromatic aberration out of the way which is excellent.

Raist

Keith25106 · Oct 14, 2002

w3 said:
2. S200/S330 has Low Light Focus Assist lamp. But with or without
the Assist Lamp, S200/S330 has trouble getting a Focus Lock under
dim light and performs worse than other digicams WITHOUT any Focus
Assist Lamp.

Yes this was really the weak point of the S200 I had for a few weeks. It just drove me nuts. The Minolta X I got in its place doesn't have an AF light but focuses much better !

w3 said:
3. S200/S330 defaults to soft (and low contrast) images and yet
gives users a choice for even LESS Sharpening as if Canon thought
that the default images were too sharp already. The idea of softer
images is to help preserve more detail particularly for the "Pros"
to play with during post-camera processing . I don't mind Canon
doing that on a 5MP Prosumer type of digicams. I think a slightly

Raist3d · Oct 14, 2002

Hey Keith, how do you like the Minolta's Dimage X ability to focus in dim light? I ask becuase I want to check out the Minolta Dimage Xi.

Raist

Keith said:
Keith25106 said:

2. S200/S330 has Low Light Focus Assist lamp. But with or without
the Assist Lamp, S200/S330 has trouble getting a Focus Lock under
dim light and performs worse than other digicams WITHOUT any Focus
Assist Lamp.

Click to expand...

Yes this was really the weak point of the S200 I had for a few
weeks. It just drove me nuts. The Minolta X I got in its place
doesn't have an AF light but focuses much better !

Keith25106 said:

3. S200/S330 defaults to soft (and low contrast) images and yet
gives users a choice for even LESS Sharpening as if Canon thought
that the default images were too sharp already. The idea of softer
images is to help preserve more detail particularly for the "Pros"
to play with during post-camera processing . I don't mind Canon
doing that on a 5MP Prosumer type of digicams. I think a slightly

Click to expand...

S230 - Disappointing ?

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