Format CF to capture VGA video until card full

Cameron43 said:

Assuming the Cannon has not been limited to 30 seconds in its
firmware like some camera's then it may help. The gains are only
small, but AIS in my earlier postings it may help where card speeds
are marginal with regard to writing video files. To be honest,
although the 602 is admittedly better than other still cams with
regard to video, It simply cannot compete with a proper firewire
MinDV camcorder and neither can any other stills camera.
If you want good video get a camcorder... let the flaming begin.. LOL

You dont need Windows XP. All versions of Windows including Dos
6.22 etc. are capable of formating at different cluster sizes.
Just type 'Format ?' from a dos box to see all the options.

Cameron

Click to expand...

leogenghis said:

Thanks Cameron, however it's been a long time since I used DOS,
could you give me a quick walkthrough? If I want an 8192 Allocate
Unit Size, what numbers should I put in for "number of tracks per
disk side" and "number of sectors per track"?

ie. Format F: T: ? V: ?

Do I need do type anything else? All the other parameters seem
geared toward floppies.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Cameron43 said:

leogenghis said:

Thanks Cameron, however it's been a long time since I used DOS,
could you give me a quick walkthrough? If I want an 8192 Allocate
Unit Size, what numbers should I put in for "number of tracks per
disk side" and "number of sectors per track"?

ie. Format F: T: ? V: ?

Do I need do type anything else? All the other parameters seem
geared toward floppies.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

I dont what version of OS you are running so the syntax may be
slightly different from one OS to another... check with 'Format ?'

On Windows XP for example one would enter the following.

FORMAT FS:FAT A:8192

I've just tried the above (WinXP) and it works fine and is
recognised by my 602 even without a volume name being entered.
thats for 8k clusters... from 8K clusters upwards one enters the
actually cluster size as 16K,32K etc.

No need to bother with tracks etc thats when formating floppies as
you rightly stated.
Just do a straightforward format telling it the driver letter, the
Fat type which MUST be Fat16 followed by the cluster allocation
size. Thats all you need.

After formating you will be prompted for a volume label... it does
not appear to matter if a volume is given or not... still seems to
work.

I know the syntax has changed slightly from one OS to another so if
you are not using XP check with 'Format ?' very early OS
required Format H to show the syntax help.
If you still have a prob come back to me.. mentioning what OS you
are using.

HTH

Cameron

Click to expand...

Cameron43 said:

Cameron43 said:

leogenghis said:

Thanks Cameron, however it's been a long time since I used DOS,
could you give me a quick walkthrough? If I want an 8192 Allocate
Unit Size, what numbers should I put in for "number of tracks per
disk side" and "number of sectors per track"?

ie. Format F: T: ? V: ?

Do I need do type anything else? All the other parameters seem
geared toward floppies.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

I dont what version of OS you are running so the syntax may be
slightly different from one OS to another... check with 'Format ?'

On Windows XP for example one would enter the following.

FORMAT FS:FAT A:8192

I've just tried the above (WinXP) and it works fine and is
recognised by my 602 even without a volume name being entered.
thats for 8k clusters... from 8K clusters upwards one enters the
actually cluster size as 16K,32K etc.

No need to bother with tracks etc thats when formating floppies as
you rightly stated.
Just do a straightforward format telling it the driver letter, the
Fat type which MUST be Fat16 followed by the cluster allocation
size. Thats all you need.

After formating you will be prompted for a volume label... it does
not appear to matter if a volume is given or not... still seems to
work.

I know the syntax has changed slightly from one OS to another so if
you are not using XP check with 'Format ?' very early OS
required Format H to show the syntax help.
If you still have a prob come back to me.. mentioning what OS you
are using.

HTH

Cameron

Click to expand...

That should be of course.

FORMAT : FS:FAT A:8192

Left out the drive letter... sorry...LOL

Cameron

Click to expand...

Cameron43 said:

Writing to a drive with larger cluster sizes will always be faster
simply because the program or in the case of camera's the Pic file
is more
contiguous, its also slightly faster due to the smaller size fat
table that is required, this is why older Fat16/Fat32 systems is
noticably faster than say NTFS .
The downside is that you will get slightly less pics on a card
probably 2 or 4 less. The reason they use small cluster sizes on
hard-drives is because the wastage by using large cluster sizes
across a big drives can be quite significant.. this is the reason
drives need de-fragging occasionally to reduce the wastage and free
up previouslu used space.
Remember on a hard-drive or a ram-drive which is all a CF card
is...if say the cluster size is 16K then saving a file which is
only 1k in size then 15k
gets wasted and there will be wastage left over for every file on
the system. Also because the drive is broken up into larger chunks
if you like... the resulting fat table is less complicated and
smaller so the system reads it faster too. As drives became larger
it was necessary to change the fat systems so that a larger range
of numbers could be stored in the fat table
hence 16,32,64 bit numbers etc.

Formating any card to a larger cluster size will have the effect of
faster writing/read times.. ie. only slightly but will make a
difference of succesfully filling the whole card with video
especially on those cards where the cards speed is borderline for
video when formatted at Fat16.
Fat16 has been the standard fat used on camera memory cards for
many years, When the cards first came out it would have drastically
reduced the number of pictures stored had they used a larger
cluster size due to the then small size of the pic files.
Fuji have merely kept to what has become the de-facto (FAT16)
standard for use on CF/SM cards etc. Its always going to be a
compromise where file systems are concerned, but a manufacturer
should not be criticised for adhering to what is now the standard
file system for camera's.

Cameron

Click to expand...

Cameron43 said:

It seems I did'nt leave it out.... it appears anything placed
between the greater and less-than arrows gets filtered out on this
forum site, so it does not appear in the text...hmmm learn
something every day!

Here it is again.

FORMAT driveletter: FS:FAT A:8192

Cameron

Click to expand...

leogenghis said:

Hi Cameron, thanks for the detailed reply, however my DOS
prompt doesn't recognize either FS or A ... it says both are
"invalid switches". I'm using Windows ME. When I type FORMAT ?,
what comes up is very similar to what's shown under SYNTAX on this
webpage:

http://www.computerhope.com/formathl.htm

Leo

Click to expand...

leogenghis said:

Leo

leogenghis said:

Hi Cameron, thanks for the detailed reply, however my DOS
prompt doesn't recognize either FS or A ... it says both are
"invalid switches". I'm using Windows ME. When I type FORMAT ?,
what comes up is very similar to what's shown under SYNTAX on this
webpage:

http://www.computerhope.com/formathl.htm

Leo

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

leogenghis said:

Leo

leogenghis said:

Hi Cameron, thanks for the detailed reply, however my DOS
prompt doesn't recognize either FS or A ... it says both are
"invalid switches". I'm using Windows ME. When I type FORMAT ?,
what comes up is very similar to what's shown under SYNTAX on this
webpage:

http://www.computerhope.com/formathl.htm

Leo

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Benoit Racicot said:

Benoit Racicot wrote:
And FAT32 is unreadable by digicams.

So Microsoft's answer was the best one.

Benoit Racicot said:

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb ;en-us;Q67321

Cluster size depends on logical drive size...
This means FORMAT decides for you...

But then there's this:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/rhwatson/dos7/z-format.html

mentioning a Z switch, supposedly adding Z:16 will give you 8k
clusters, Z:32 will give you 16k clusters.

chris t26 said:

Benoit Racicot said:

I tried this with my pokey Sandisk 256MB CF:

16k and 8k allocation units scored the same, so I kept the smaller
allocation unit size to save space.

VGA video: 25 seconds. Before: 12 seconds.
QVGA video: until card is full, as before.
TIFF save: 20 seconds. Before: too long for me...
5-shot 6M Fine: 15 seconds.

Easy way to format using Windows 2000 (untested with other OSes)
and the camera itself, no card reader needed.

Check in Windows Explorer the drive letter assigned to the camera.
Start-> Run, type CMD and click OK.
On the command line (remember DOS?) type:
(Be sure to replace E: with the correct drive letter!)

FORMAT E: FS:FAT A:8192

Wait until the end. Enter a volume label (11 characters, no spaces)
like CF256_01 if you want. The camera does not seem to mind.

Close the window.

Disclaimer: it worked for me, can't say if it will work for you.

tailwind said:

I got this technique from an taiwan digicam forum...

Background:
Compact Flash are just formatted like a harddrive, it uses FAT
system ("NOT FAT32"), and by default...
128MB CF uses 2048 Allocate Unit Size
256MB CF uses 4096 Allocate Unit Size
512MB CF uses 8192 Allocate Unit Size
--
tailwind - S602Z
http://www.pbase.com/tailwind

Click to expand...

--
Benoit
http://www.pbase.com/glutier

Click to expand...

has anyone figured out how to do this in windows 98? plz tell me if
you have.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Benoit Racicot said:

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb ;en-us;Q67321

Cluster size depends on logical drive size...
This means FORMAT decides for you...

But then there's this:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/rhwatson/dos7/z-format.html

mentioning a Z switch, supposedly adding Z:16 will give you 8k
clusters, Z:32 will give you 16k clusters.

chris t26 said:

Benoit Racicot said:

I tried this with my pokey Sandisk 256MB CF:

16k and 8k allocation units scored the same, so I kept the smaller
allocation unit size to save space.

VGA video: 25 seconds. Before: 12 seconds.
QVGA video: until card is full, as before.
TIFF save: 20 seconds. Before: too long for me...
5-shot 6M Fine: 15 seconds.

Easy way to format using Windows 2000 (untested with other OSes)
and the camera itself, no card reader needed.

Check in Windows Explorer the drive letter assigned to the camera.
Start-> Run, type CMD and click OK.
On the command line (remember DOS?) type:
(Be sure to replace E: with the correct drive letter!)

FORMAT E: FS:FAT A:8192

Wait until the end. Enter a volume label (11 characters, no spaces)
like CF256_01 if you want. The camera does not seem to mind.

Close the window.

Disclaimer: it worked for me, can't say if it will work for you.

tailwind said:

I got this technique from an taiwan digicam forum...

Background:
Compact Flash are just formatted like a harddrive, it uses FAT
system ("NOT FAT32"), and by default...
128MB CF uses 2048 Allocate Unit Size
256MB CF uses 4096 Allocate Unit Size
512MB CF uses 8192 Allocate Unit Size
--
tailwind - S602Z
http://www.pbase.com/tailwind

Click to expand...

--
Benoit
http://www.pbase.com/glutier

Click to expand...

has anyone figured out how to do this in windows 98? plz tell me if
you have.

Click to expand...

--
Benoit
http://www.pbase.com/glutier

Click to expand...

bluesz said:

I typed

format H: FS:FAT A:8192 Z:16

but it indicated invalid z parameter

Click to expand...

Jim Gilliland said:

ShinyTop said:

Tailwind, if anybody want a nomination for best help on the Fuji
forum I want you to have it for this one post. I followed your
directions and now I get a full 219 seconds from my Ridata 256
(20x) where before I only got about 60 seconds. You need to post
this anew whenever it falls off the page. Flesh out the directions
a little for those who are not as comfortable on the computer as I
am but a great hint. Just in time for my cruise I am leaving for
tomorrow.

Click to expand...

I agree. It even helped me out with my older 340mb microdrive,
which also would fail on video before I did the reformat.

Click to expand...

Cameron43 said:

Cameron43 wrote:

bluesz said:

I typed

format H: FS:FAT A:8192 Z:16

but it indicated invalid z parameter

Click to expand...

On XP there is no Z switch... leave it off.

ie.

FORMAT H: FS:FAT A:8192

The above will work assuming your card letter is H: else change to
match.

Cameron

Click to expand...

Cameron43 said:

bluesz said:

I typed

format H: FS:FAT A:8192 Z:16

but it indicated invalid z parameter

Click to expand...

On XP there is no Z switch... leave it off.

ie.

FORMAT H: FS:FAT A:8192

The above will work assuming your card letter is H: else change to
match.

Cameron

Click to expand...

Cameron43 said:

leogenghis said:

Leo

leogenghis said:

Hi Cameron, thanks for the detailed reply, however my DOS
prompt doesn't recognize either FS or A ... it says both are
"invalid switches". I'm using Windows ME. When I type FORMAT ?,
what comes up is very similar to what's shown under SYNTAX on this
webpage:

http://www.computerhope.com/formathl.htm

Leo

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Hi Leo.. a little more info.

I've tried to find the ME boot disk I thought I had but no joy..
and on checking the Format command on a Win98-se floppy it appears
that it does not support an option for pre-setting the cluster size
so that looks like a no-go too. (same as the ME version AFAIK)

It seems only the XP versions of the format command allows the
option to set the Allocated Cluster size. It may be possible that
a third party format utility may let you format with a larger
cluster size.
Partition Magic has been one suggestion, but this tends to run from
DOS, and in any event I doubt it will work on Flash Cards as they
are not Fixed Disks, and flash cards would not even be available in
DOS because Windows has to load the drivers to enable the USB
devices in the first place although a few Mobos are coming along
that will drive the USB direct from the onboard bios. So the
utility would have to run from Windows.

I think if you still wish to explore the option to format using a
larger cluster size on your CF/SM media you will have to obtain a
third party format utility of which I think there may be a few. Do
a search with http://www.google.com for 'compactflash Format' or similar.
Or else put XP on your system. BTW XP's format command will only
run on XP as it checks the OS version and has to be run from within
Windows XP, there is no DOS only format command with XP.

Sorry I was not able to offer a solution.

Best wishes

Cameron

Click to expand...

tailwind said:

I got this technique from an taiwan digicam forum...

Background:
Compact Flash are just formatted like a harddrive, it uses FAT
system ("NOT FAT32"), and by default...
128MB CF uses 2048 Allocate Unit Size
256MB CF uses 4096 Allocate Unit Size
512MB CF uses 8192 Allocate Unit Size

What to do:
What they suggested is to use a bigger allocate unit size than the
default setting, when you try to format it simply by right-click
and select "format", the allocate unit size is fixed. To avoid
that...
(All the steps are according to windows XP, I don't if other
version have the same equivalent)
1. Open Control Panel
2. Open Administrative Tools
3. Open Computer Management
4. Go to the Disk Management
5. Select the CF and format from here...now you can specify the
allocated unit size.

Results:
I have a 256MB Dane-Elec CF card, before using this method, I could
only record 63 seconds of VGA videos. Then, I formatted it using
8192 allocate unit size, and now I can record uptil I have 1 second
left, that's 218 seconds (the card shows that I have 219 seconds
buffer when it is blank), no idea why it won't record for that 1
second.

Side notes: with the old format, 3M Fine gives me 200 pictures, but
after format with the bigger unit size, now it shows that I only
have 199 pictures.
--
tailwind - S602Z
http://www.pbase.com/tailwind

Click to expand...

tameria11 said:

I'm still using WIN 98,any advice besides upgrade, I like the
stability of 98
Thanks Dave

Click to expand...

tameria11 said:

tailwind said:

I got this technique from an taiwan digicam forum...

Background:
Compact Flash are just formatted like a harddrive, it uses FAT
system ("NOT FAT32"), and by default...
128MB CF uses 2048 Allocate Unit Size
256MB CF uses 4096 Allocate Unit Size
512MB CF uses 8192 Allocate Unit Size

What to do:
What they suggested is to use a bigger allocate unit size than the
default setting, when you try to format it simply by right-click
and select "format", the allocate unit size is fixed. To avoid
that...
(All the steps are according to windows XP, I don't if other
version have the same equivalent)
1. Open Control Panel
2. Open Administrative Tools
3. Open Computer Management
4. Go to the Disk Management
5. Select the CF and format from here...now you can specify the
allocated unit size.

Results:
I have a 256MB Dane-Elec CF card, before using this method, I could
only record 63 seconds of VGA videos. Then, I formatted it using
8192 allocate unit size, and now I can record uptil I have 1 second
left, that's 218 seconds (the card shows that I have 219 seconds
buffer when it is blank), no idea why it won't record for that 1
second.

Side notes: with the old format, 3M Fine gives me 200 pictures, but
after format with the bigger unit size, now it shows that I only
have 199 pictures.
--
tailwind - S602Z
http://www.pbase.com/tailwind

Click to expand...

--
Dave
http://www.pbase.com/tameria11

Click to expand...