K-7 MkII(?) - What will it be?

pundit

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A number of people have suggested they would like to see a K-7 MkII (?) fitted with the K-x sensor.

On one hand the K-x Sony sensor appears to be pretty good for an APS-C sensor however IMO Pentax will have to raise the bar somewhat higher than just the sensor.

After nearly 11,000 shutter actuations on my K-7 and shooting side by side with several Nikon and Canon shooters here's my take.

In terms of size, build quality and ergonomics I think the K-7 is just about perfect.

Without throwing out the baby with the bathwater there are a number of issues that I feel Pentax/Hoya must address - and much of this has been previously discussed...

SENSOR - To be frank, the new sensor will even need to improve on the K-x in the K-7's replacement. I think somewhere around an 18mp sensor is probably on the cards. While many will poo-poo going to 18mp, I think it stands to reason that Sony would be developing something to counter the 18mp Canon sensor. However if this is case it will still need to be at least 1/2-1 stop better high ISO and DR than even the K-x sensor and the relatively poor base ISO shadow noise of the K-7 must a thing of the past. Even forgetting a FF DSLR for now, the sensor performance must be competitive with the D700 because by the time the new Pentax flagship hits the market the D700 will have been on sale for some two and half years. And before people start screaming just use Topaz DN4 or whatever, please consider WORK FLOW!... which seems to get ignored half the time. 3200 ISO must be usable straight out of camera... even 6400 ISO at a pinch.

FLASH - It's well beyond time for Pentax to get with the program and provide 1/250th flash sync - Dammit Pentax, my 25 year old Nikon FE2 has 1/250th flash sync! Also Pentax P-TTL flash basically sucks compared with Nikon's CLS which has now been around for several years. A new flash system?

AUTO FOCUS - Yes it was an improvement on all previous Pentax offerings but the next flagship DSLR needs to raise the bar again with faster, better low light, and much better focus tracking performance.

TETHERING - For f*cks sake!! It appears even the new 645D doesn't have it - That's simply p*ss poor Pentax!! - NO EXCUSE!!

MEMORY CARDS/DATA TRANSFER - Assignable dual card slots and faster data throughput.

SHAKE REDUCTION - At least one stop improvement in SR performance - yes I know it's inbuilt and that's great but it's probably nearly 2 stops behind the competition.

VIDEO - I know many don't give a rats about video but if it has it, then make 1080 HD and AF while in video mode would be nice.

For me, sensor performance, AF, flash sync and tethering are the bare minimums that Pentax must address.

I'm doing much more low light and flash photography these days, plus some studio work.

I truly hope Hoya/Pentax can deliver the goods with this one... if they don't the only path will be elsewhere.
 
My guesstimate is:
  • Samsung APS-C sensor
  • New and improved AF
  • 1080p video
  • otherwise pretty much the same as K-7
 
After nearly 11,000 shutter actuations on my K-7 and shooting side by side with several Nikon and Canon shooters here's my take.

In terms of size, build quality and ergonomics I think the K-7 is just about perfect.
Build Quality: Good
Ergonomics: Good

Size: Good -- for some. And provided Pentax doesn't offer the more "exotic" lenses of Canon and Nikon. For instance, the tiny K7 size does NOT make for good ergonomics with a fast supertele or a Nikon 14-24/2.8 style lens. Tilt-Shift? Unusable with a tiny body like the K7 (barely usable with D300).
Without throwing out the baby with the bathwater there are a number of issues that I feel Pentax/Hoya must address - and much of this has been previously discussed...

However if this is case it will still need to be at least 1/2-1 stop better high ISO and DR than even the K-x sensor and the relatively poor base ISO shadow noise of the K-7 must a thing of the past.
That's a tall order... Is it even possible with 18MP?
Even forgetting a FF DSLR for now, the sensor performance must be competitive with the D700 because by the time the new Pentax flagship hits the market the D700 will have been on sale for some two and half years.
And the sensor for some three and a half years... Todays 12 MP FF sensor standard is the D3s -- 1-1.5 stops better than the D3/D700. What performance will Nikon/Canon FF sensors released at Photokina have? That's what the "K7mkII" is up against.

So, forget comparisons with FF. It's useless.
FLASH - It's well beyond time for Pentax to get with the program and provide 1/250th flash sync - Dammit Pentax, my 25 year old Nikon FE2 has 1/250th flash sync! Also Pentax P-TTL flash basically sucks compared with Nikon's CLS which has now been around for several years. A new flash system?
Roland says it's just fine; always works "just great". Right up there with Nikons...
AUTO FOCUS - Yes it was an improvement on all previous Pentax offerings but the next flagship DSLR needs to raise the bar again with faster, better low light, and much better focus tracking performance.
You're right, Af is probably Pentax' weakest point. Because AF performance is NOT about more or less static speed measurements, in the middle of the user envelope. It's about speed in combination with low-light, tracking and lock-on performance.
TETHERING - For f*cks sake!! It appears even the new 645D doesn't have it - That's simply p*ss poor Pentax!! - NO EXCUSE!!
Probably not the highest priority for Pentax (except for the 645D), considering the target audience?
MEMORY CARDS/DATA TRANSFER - Assignable dual card slots and faster data throughput.
Again, perhaps not the highest priority for Pentax, considering the target audience?
SHAKE REDUCTION - At least one stop improvement in SR performance - yes I know it's inbuilt and that's great but it's probably nearly 2 stops behind the competition.
That's true, and what's worse are the signs that the Pentax system isn't as effective with all focal lengths? (By the way, what was the conclusion of that particular debate?)
VIDEO - I know many don't give a rats about video but if it has it, then make 1080 HD and AF while in video mode would be nice.
"Pro / Advanced User" should be 1080p. Period.
Nikon, too, lacks in that department.

--
Take care,
Jorgen

Probere necesse est.....
 
From an interview with a Pentax/Hoya person it sounds like there will be two updates and two new cameras with one being above the K-7 all out or atleast announced by the end of the year. Pentax/Hoya needs to get busy with releasing cameras to met this schedule.

To get me to upgrade from my K-7 I will like to see the following:

1. Improved sensor with more dynamic range and better higher iso. Iso 50 and even 25 would also be nice.

2. Improved SR. With the K-7 the SR is slower than the AF and there are numerous times I have taken the photo before SR is ready. It is not a pretty sight.

Then there is always numerous things on the want list like:

1. Better AF is always nice, even if the AF on the K-7 is a lot better than any Pentax dslr before.
2. AF adjustment for each point.
3. Faster flash sync.

Dave
---

 
In terms of practical photography, I think the K-7's weakest point is High ISO performance. Pentax probably made a lot of compromises to accommodate the Video function. The K-7 successor really needs to improve on it.

Faster AF and more sensitive low-light AF is always welcome.

However, the majority of the people who may consider a Pentax camera probably don't have it as a high priority.

I'm doubtful about faster Flash synch, especially if it requires any major retooling of the flash system. The difference in ambient exposure between 1/250 and 1/180 secs. shutter speed is 0.39 stops....personally I've rarely found any practical difference in usage. When I use High-speed synch flash, I'm typically working at anything from 1/500 sec up to 1/1000s.
 
A number of people have suggested they would like to see a K-7 MkII (?) fitted with the K-x sensor.

On one hand the K-x Sony sensor appears to be pretty good for an APS-C sensor however IMO Pentax will have to raise the bar somewhat higher than just the sensor.

After nearly 11,000 shutter actuations on my K-7 and shooting side by side with several Nikon and Canon shooters here's my take.

In terms of size, build quality and ergonomics I think the K-7 is just about perfect.

Without throwing out the baby with the bathwater there are a number of issues that I feel Pentax/Hoya must address - and much of this has been previously discussed...

SENSOR - To be frank, the new sensor will even need to improve on the K-x in the K-7's replacement. I think somewhere around an 18mp sensor is probably on the cards. While many will poo-poo going to 18mp, I think it stands to reason that Sony would be developing something to counter the 18mp Canon sensor. However if this is case it will still need to be at least 1/2-1 stop better high ISO and DR than even the K-x sensor and the relatively poor base ISO shadow noise of the K-7 must a thing of the past. Even forgetting a FF DSLR for now, the sensor performance must be competitive with the D700 because by the time the new Pentax flagship hits the market the D700 will have been on sale for some two and half years. And before people start screaming just use Topaz DN4 or whatever, please consider WORK FLOW!... which seems to get ignored half the time. 3200 ISO must be usable straight out of camera... even 6400 ISO at a pinch.

FLASH - It's well beyond time for Pentax to get with the program and provide 1/250th flash sync - Dammit Pentax, my 25 year old Nikon FE2 has 1/250th flash sync! Also Pentax P-TTL flash basically sucks compared with Nikon's CLS which has now been around for several years. A new flash system?

AUTO FOCUS - Yes it was an improvement on all previous Pentax offerings but the next flagship DSLR needs to raise the bar again with faster, better low light, and much better focus tracking performance.

TETHERING - For f*cks sake!! It appears even the new 645D doesn't have it - That's simply p*ss poor Pentax!! - NO EXCUSE!!

MEMORY CARDS/DATA TRANSFER - Assignable dual card slots and faster data throughput.

SHAKE REDUCTION - At least one stop improvement in SR performance - yes I know it's inbuilt and that's great but it's probably nearly 2 stops behind the competition.

VIDEO - I know many don't give a rats about video but if it has it, then make 1080 HD and AF while in video mode would be nice.

For me, sensor performance, AF, flash sync and tethering are the bare minimums that Pentax must address.

I'm doing much more low light and flash photography these days, plus some studio work.

I truly hope Hoya/Pentax can deliver the goods with this one... if they don't the only path will be elsewhere.
Agree with all of this - for me better focus, less noise and better video are at the top of the list.

--
Thommo
 
My main shooting subjects are sport (motorbikes) and stars! Which in choosing Pentax for such things, I need to be commited to the looney bin!

So for me, faster more accurate, proper tracking/predicting AF is needed for the sports stuff, and secondly truely switchable long exposure NR, and a cooler running sensor would be on the list too.

I don't care about the megapixies, my K20D's 14.6 does me fine as it is.
 
After nearly 11,000 shutter actuations on my K-7 and shooting side by side with several Nikon and Canon shooters here's my take.

In terms of size, build quality and ergonomics I think the K-7 is just about perfect.
Build Quality: Good
Ergonomics: Good

Size: Good -- for some. And provided Pentax doesn't offer the more "exotic" lenses of Canon and Nikon. For instance, the tiny K7 size does NOT make for good ergonomics with a fast supertele or a Nikon 14-24/2.8 style lens. Tilt-Shift? Unusable with a tiny body like the K7 (barely usable with D300).
Without throwing out the baby with the bathwater there are a number of issues that I feel Pentax/Hoya must address - and much of this has been previously discussed...

However if this is case it will still need to be at least 1/2-1 stop better high ISO and DR than even the K-x sensor and the relatively poor base ISO shadow noise of the K-7 must a thing of the past.
That's a tall order... Is it even possible with 18MP?
Even forgetting a FF DSLR for now, the sensor performance must be competitive with the D700 because by the time the new Pentax flagship hits the market the D700 will have been on sale for some two and half years.
And the sensor for some three and a half years... Todays 12 MP FF sensor standard is the D3s -- 1-1.5 stops better than the D3/D700. What performance will Nikon/Canon FF sensors released at Photokina have? That's what the "K7mkII" is up against.

So, forget comparisons with FF. It's useless.
FLASH - It's well beyond time for Pentax to get with the program and provide 1/250th flash sync - Dammit Pentax, my 25 year old Nikon FE2 has 1/250th flash sync! Also Pentax P-TTL flash basically sucks compared with Nikon's CLS which has now been around for several years. A new flash system?
Roland says it's just fine; always works "just great". Right up there with Nikons...
AUTO FOCUS - Yes it was an improvement on all previous Pentax offerings but the next flagship DSLR needs to raise the bar again with faster, better low light, and much better focus tracking performance.
You're right, Af is probably Pentax' weakest point. Because AF performance is NOT about more or less static speed measurements, in the middle of the user envelope. It's about speed in combination with low-light, tracking and lock-on performance.
TETHERING - For f*cks sake!! It appears even the new 645D doesn't have it - That's simply p*ss poor Pentax!! - NO EXCUSE!!
Probably not the highest priority for Pentax (except for the 645D), considering the target audience?
MEMORY CARDS/DATA TRANSFER - Assignable dual card slots and faster data throughput.
Again, perhaps not the highest priority for Pentax, considering the target audience?
SHAKE REDUCTION - At least one stop improvement in SR performance - yes I know it's inbuilt and that's great but it's probably nearly 2 stops behind the competition.
That's true, and what's worse are the signs that the Pentax system isn't as effective with all focal lengths? (By the way, what was the conclusion of that particular debate?)
VIDEO - I know many don't give a rats about video but if it has it, then make 1080 HD and AF while in video mode would be nice.
"Pro / Advanced User" should be 1080p. Period.
Nikon, too, lacks in that department.
I think you've summed it up very well, Jorgen. Your thoughts are pretty well spot on, IMO.
--
Take care,
Jorgen

Probere necesse est.....
--
Lance B
http://www.pbase.com/lance_b

 
A good list and I agree with pretty much all of it. In my opinion they also need to let the user disable long exposure NR, for those that want to do their own dark frame subtraction. Being locked out of the camera half of the time is not good.

As for the sensor, they are pretty much at the mercy of Sony and Samsung. Sony seems to be the top performer but historically they have always given new sensors to Nikon first, so Im not sure there is much hope for anything else than the K-x sensor. Samsung sensors seem to get worse with each iteration (K20D -> K-7 -> NX10). Calling NR an alternative to a good sensor is nuts in my opinion, the result never looks equally good and the same software can be used on a better sensor, making images in even lower light possible. Getting usable ISO3200 on K-7 is no great feat, considering it is really ISO2000 and the K-x can get usable ISO6400-12800 with NR.

As for the flash system, Pentax had cameras with 1/8000 shutters and 1/250 sync 20 years ago in the Z/PZ cameras, and they were full frame! The same shutter used on a camera with a 16mm tall sensor as opposed to 24mm would enable sync at even faster speeds, at least 1/320 and possibly 1/400. Also about flash, Pentax is positioning itself as an all-weather alternative but lacks the weather sealed flashes of the competition.

Auto focusing could be improved by adding F2.8 sensors, current Pentax cameras only have F5.6 sensors. Canon/Nikon/Sony top end bodies have secondary sensors which improve performance with lenses F2.8 or faster, Pentax AF basically does not benefit from lenses faster than F5.6.

As for tethering, Pentax has stated it is being worked on for the 645D and hopefully the same software will be able to control other Pentax DSLRs as well.

--
My Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36164047@N06/
 
A number of people have suggested they would like to see a K-7 MkII (?) fitted with the K-x sensor.

On one hand the K-x Sony sensor appears to be pretty good for an APS-C sensor however IMO Pentax will have to raise the bar somewhat higher than just the sensor.

After nearly 11,000 shutter actuations on my K-7 and shooting side by side with several Nikon and Canon shooters here's my take.

In terms of size, build quality and ergonomics I think the K-7 is just about perfect.

Without throwing out the baby with the bathwater there are a number of issues that I feel Pentax/Hoya must address - and much of this has been previously discussed...

SENSOR - To be frank, the new sensor will even need to improve on the K-x in the K-7's replacement. I think somewhere around an 18mp sensor is probably on the cards. While many will poo-poo going to 18mp, I think it stands to reason that Sony would be developing something to counter the 18mp Canon sensor. However if this is case it will still need to be at least 1/2-1 stop better high ISO and DR than even the K-x sensor and the relatively poor base ISO shadow noise of the K-7 must a thing of the past. Even forgetting a FF DSLR for now, the sensor performance must be competitive with the D700 because by the time the new Pentax flagship hits the market the D700 will have been on sale for some two and half years. And before people start screaming just use Topaz DN4 or whatever, please consider WORK FLOW!... which seems to get ignored half the time. 3200 ISO must be usable straight out of camera... even 6400 ISO at a pinch.
Somewhere around 18MP, and where the DR lies needs to be updated - more headroom is needed for highlight, and if necessary to accomplish this, a little less in the shadows is okay. ETTR must be the way to go - no more exposing for the shadows and then pull up - unless shadow noise is vastly improved to outperform the Kx by 1 stop, pushing the shadow is not practical.
FLASH - It's well beyond time for Pentax to get with the program and provide 1/250th flash sync - Dammit Pentax, my 25 year old Nikon FE2 has 1/250th flash sync! Also Pentax P-TTL flash basically sucks compared with Nikon's CLS which has now been around for several years. A new flash system?
Either this, or provide ISO 50. Both would be fine. Actually, I prefer having ISO 50 - it will somewhat alleviate the 1/180 flash sync for a lot of people, and being more flexible to boot.

Flash exposure on the other hand, Roland is partially right - no problem there and the exposure is up there. But only on the K-7 only. Older bodies don't apply. Since it's the K-7 mkII I suppose the 77 segment will be reused or improved upon.
AUTO FOCUS - Yes it was an improvement on all previous Pentax offerings but the next flagship DSLR needs to raise the bar again with faster, better low light, and much better focus tracking performance.
It just needs to be predictive again. From some forum members the PZ1P seemed to be predictive.
TETHERING - For f*cks sake!! It appears even the new 645D doesn't have it - That's simply p*ss poor Pentax!! - NO EXCUSE!!
Indeed. It'd be crazy without tethering - if the software is not there, at least make it possible through the interface! I suppose displaying live view on an external monitor in shooting mode isn't too difficult??
MEMORY CARDS/DATA TRANSFER - Assignable dual card slots and faster data throughput.
And risk enlarging the body. If the body size goes back up to K20D level, I'd rather stay with a single slot.

A compromise is to make the dual card slot available through a new battery grip.
SHAKE REDUCTION - At least one stop improvement in SR performance - yes I know it's inbuilt and that's great but it's probably nearly 2 stops behind the competition.
This, and make it start sooner! How about an "eye-start" SR?
VIDEO - I know many don't give a rats about video but if it has it, then make 1080 HD and AF while in video mode would be nice.
Indeed. AF is needed while in video to make it more useful. Any m4/3 body does it. On top, a crop video mode with 60 FPS would be nice for slow motions...
For me, sensor performance, AF, flash sync and tethering are the bare minimums that Pentax must address.
For me, there are 3 more must-fix issues.
  1. Top LCD illumination. Make it manual on and off like the K20D! How the K-7 automatically turns on the top LCD light is madness.
  2. User modes. When the Canon G2 provided C1 and C2 user memories, you got to wonder why any flagship DSLR is sold with only one.
  3. The current artificial 99 picture limit in the intervalometer needs to be either removed or vastly increased. There's no reason to limit the creation of time-lapse videos.
One more nice-to-have feature:
  • Make the RAW button a general assignable button. Customisation goes a long way to address a lot of potential usability issue, even each customer's need might be different.
And the favourite issue that Pentax will probably never address:
  • Give us back the uncrippled KAF2 mount so K and M series lenses can be metered with open-aperture, and probably be used with P-TTL!
 
In terms of practical photography, I think the K-7's weakest point is High ISO performance. Pentax probably made a lot of compromises to accommodate the Video function. The K-7 successor really needs to improve on it.

Faster AF and more sensitive low-light AF is always welcome.
KitTP, I agree,

For me high iso (at least as good as the K-x) is a must, along with better DR. Faster AF would be welcome also.

I'm waiting for the Sept news release and the leaks :- )

wll
 
I always find wish lists interesting. Everyone wants different things and has different needs..... and everyone has different expectations.

Sensors don't have different ISO's. They have a base ISO and everything else is done with signal amplification. One of the ways Nikon get great high ISO is that they have a base ISO of 200 on several of the bodies. Getting a true base ISO of 50 and 3200 that is usable right out of the camera is a task nobody has accomplished yet. The reason most MF cameras don't do well at high ISO is not the CCD can not handle high ISO, it is because the have selected to use a base 50 and design the sensor for better IQ at the lower end.

I do agree that the SR needs to be improved. My E-3 has a very good in-body IS system. Much better than the K-7.

The K-7 I have used has the latest firmware, so I am not sure if the AF was improved from the first test model. The K-7's AF is faster than my Canon 5D when using the right lens, and thousands of professionals have used the 5D. While I agree the K-7's AF can be improved I also think it gets a bad rap. The K-7 has a very capable AF system.
 
I'm not sure why people seem so concerned with MP count. If you are a heavy cropper then I guess you need a lot of MPs.

There is an article in AP this month showing a billboard for a jacket advertisement in Time Square that was made from a 1.3MP JPEG. If you can't get excellent 30"x20" prints from 14MP it is not the camera's fault.
 
I'm not sure why people seem so concerned with MP count. If you are a heavy cropper then I guess you need a lot of MPs.

There is an article in AP this month showing a billboard for a jacket advertisement in Time Square that was made from a 1.3MP JPEG. If you can't get excellent 30"x20" prints from 14MP it is not the camera's fault.
Billboards have very low resolution requirements because the viewing distances are huge. The resolution needed always depends on two things, print size and viewing distance. I have a 45"x30" print of a Tokyo night scene hanging on the wall here, it was taken with my GX-20 (K20D). It looks great at a distance but its possible to walk up close and Id love there to be more detail in the shot. I now have a large format camera for that purpose, Im hoping to get some pictures worth printing big before the summer is over.

--
My Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36164047@N06/
 
The next Pentax does not need any more resolution, and going from 14-18 is hardly anything anyway. And what percentage of Pentax buyers will use their camera tethered? A tiny one, even on this forum.

What Pentax needs to compete, is, like Apple and VW, better-designed products, not the cramming of ever more features.

First, they need faster cameras. They simply don't put enough processing power in their cameras. Though I haven't used the k-7, I do know the 40D put my k20 to shame in every area of speed--focus, shutter, preview screen. If you take more than one photo on the k20, it takes an eternity to view the results. If you are shooting a wedding formal and need to zero in on exposure, it takes too long.

I'd like a camera where f/stop and shutter can be changed without activating the meter, like a Canon.

Second is build quality: The tripod mount on both camera and grip is NOT integral to the frame, so the whole rig sags on even the sturdiest tripod/head. Which leads to my next point:

Lenses really worth investing in for the long-haul. Because of the flex in the body, ALL their long lenses, especially the 50-135, need tripod mounts, or at least optional ones. This includes the 200.
They need to build something as good as Nikon's 17-55 2.8.
They need to put out a teleconverter. Is this rocket science?

They need to update their flash. What about Pocketwizard-enabling? So many people use PWs that it would be a great selling point.

They need to put out faster lenses that don't cost a fortune like the DA 55. Why so much more than Canon or Nikon 85s? I'd rather have faster than tiny and metal. Their Limited series approaches Zeiss in price, but not in performance.

And finally, they desperately need to design faster focusing mechanisms. The focus speed of the 50-135 is generations behind. Even Olympus and Sony have left them in the dust.
 
I always find wish lists interesting. Everyone wants different things and has different needs..... and everyone has different expectations.

Sensors don't have different ISO's. They have a base ISO and everything else is done with signal amplification. One of the ways Nikon get great high ISO is that they have a base ISO of 200 on several of the bodies. Getting a true base ISO of 50 and 3200 that is usable right out of the camera is a task nobody has accomplished yet. The reason most MF cameras don't do well at high ISO is not the CCD can not handle high ISO, it is because the have selected to use a base 50 and design the sensor for better IQ at the lower end.

I do agree that the SR needs to be improved. My E-3 has a very good in-body IS system. Much better than the K-7.

The K-7 I have used has the latest firmware, so I am not sure if the AF was improved from the first test model. The K-7's AF is faster than my Canon 5D when using the right lens, and thousands of professionals have used the 5D. While I agree the K-7's AF can be improved I also think it gets a bad rap. The K-7 has a very capable AF system.
No, it is actually very weak compared to other top APS-C cameras like Nikon D300s and Canon 7D in continous high speed shooting w focus tracking.

--
http://dslr-video.com/blogmag/
 

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