Portraits - 'FA77' vs 'D FA 100 F2.8 WR'

Wow, I haven't been here for a few days and now that I come back I'm called the "Portrait Guru" :D. I feel flattered, but I'm just an average photographer who knows to use his stuff and happens to have several "portrait" primes, that's all. Know where to focus and know how to exposure, and you're set.

The perfect portrait lens does not exist, unfortunately. It's always a trade-off. Sometimes a lens is just too sharp, at other times a lens is not contrasty enough. However, with PP you can do almost anything you want. However, I always try to keep PP to a minimum.

My own personal faves in portrait primes (all on APS-C; on FF the story would be very different I think):
  • Pre-war (c. 1938) Meyer Gorlitz 7,5cm f/1.9 Primoplan. A very old design with lots of abberations and of course uncoated, but I like the vintage look it gives to suitable subjects. It's a very rare lens; the FA* 200mm f/4 macro is easier to find :)
  • 83mm f/1.9 Asahi-Kogaku Takumar. Asahi's oldest portrait prime (with 7 elements; more than any other Takumar portrait prime; even the S-M-C Takumar only had 6). Not very contrasty and prone to flare, but it's sharp for its age (around 1955) with a very pleasing bokeh. It's also a very small lens, smaller than the later Taks. It was discontinued because it was a very expensive lens to make (it had one group with three glued elements; very expensive and timeconsuming to manufacture).
  • Carl Zeiss Jena 80mm f/1.8 Pancolar. I once compared this to the S-M-C Takumar 85mm f/1.8, but I much prefer this one. There seems to be some magic in the pictures that the Takumar lacks (hard to explain).
  • FA77 Limited. If I want AF and auto exposure modes in a small package (for instance on my travels) then this is my lens of choice. Hard to beat, both in looks (it looks COOL on any Pentax DSLR) and made to last a lifetime.
  • FA* 85/1.4 [IF]. I only have it for a month, but it's already the best portrait lens in my line-up. Excellent background separation and bokeh; it seems to highlight the subject all by itself. Of course its biggest drawback is the weight (not a con for me) and it tends to clip the highlights very easily (can be corrected in PP and with proper exposure). I tested the A* 85/1.4 too but that one showed more PF than I ever saw in the FA*. I will probably add one to my collection but my choice of preference would be the FA*.
  • Last: the DA* 55 F1.4 SDM appears to be a great lens for tight head shots. In such cases the sharpness of the plane of focus (which should be on the eyes) is outstanding, and at the same time the bokeh (for instance in the hair of the model) is super smooth.
That's about it. I have much more portrait primes (which I'm gradually selling off; I have a few on eBay at the moment) but the above list is my keeper list.
 
I think you should be saving that for Mr Jonkman!

Different lenses of the same focal length and maximum aperture can produce quite different images depending on their construction, element design, coatings and configuration, number and shape of aperture blades etc etc.

For instance I can guarantee that anyone could easily pick the difference between the same shot taken with a Jupiter 9 85mm F2 wide open and a Nikkor 85mm F2 wide open.

At F5.6 & F8 it would be more difficult to easily tell them apart but not impossible once you become familiar with each lenses characteristics under certain conditions.

Other lenses can be much more difficult, and often impossible, to tell apart. However the biggest differences tend to show up at the extremes, not in their 'sweet spots'.

I have many years experience in building and listening to audio equipment.

And I can tell you there is nothing mystical about audio equipment especially such frauds as $10,000 interconnects.

Anyone who believes otherwise is fooling themselves! ;)
Peter Jonkman obviously has even more lens experience, but I would not complement on that. Instead, I think the quality of his images is more important and all the more impressive. The lens is a still a lens, a tool no matter who fantastic.

As for the lens difference, (sigh), this is why I said it would not be easy. You are totally correct, in that

Two pieces of audio equipment that measure identically in all parameters will sound identical regardless if one piece of gear is $1000 and the other is $100,000.

Unfortunately, there are qualities for which measurements are still unavailable, in audio as well as in visual art.
 
Sorry incorrect.

ALL aspects of audio, frequency, harmonic distortions, inter modulation distortions, phase shift, slew rates, rise time, FFT's etc are extremely easy to measure and quantify. 20-20khz is a very low frequency spectrum in the scheme of things. Even if we allow a few hundred extra khz for all those additional harmonics (ignoring Nyquist filtering) measuring audio is still no big deal.

The bottom line is if you can hear a difference then that difference can be recorded and measured.

Two amplifiers that measure identically in all parameters will not produce any audible difference in their output even if one is valve and the other is transistor based.

However most audiophiles will swear the valve amp is 'warmer' and 'sweeter' etc.

In fact tests show that even two amplifiers that have quite differing degrees of harmonic distortion can still prove a challenge for even seasoned so called audiophiles to tell apart under double blind testing.

Gear such as loudspeakers and turntable/tone-arm/cartridge combinations show up the biggest audible differences because of their inherent electro-mechanical variations and limitations.

However measuring what occurs inside someone's head based on a 'belief system' is another thing altogether! ;)

Just ask yourself why no self proclaimed audio guru reviewer of esoteric hi-fi gear will ever allow themselves to be double blind tested?

So called high-end speaker cables, interconnects and other overpriced 'snake oil' accessories are one of the biggest cons out there in terms of taking the gullibles hard earned cash.

Anyway that's enough audio banter in a camera forum! :)
Unfortunately, there are qualities for which measurements are still unavailable, in audio as well as in visual art.
 
Peter, Very nice, unique and interesting info.

Questions:

1. Now, in terms of actual ability to get the best possible final portrait image quality considering most likely condition, and ignoring things like how rare or collectible a lens is, which lens is the more "perfect" one? Hopefully, it can still be found.

2. Can you try to tell us the "magic", in whatever terms or what it does to you or what you see in a lens or rather in the final image with such "magic?

3. What about that Voigtlander? Heard about it, or tried it? I heard it is extremely sharp, but again in terms of its use as a portrait lens, any comments?

4. Any other well known portrait lens that you have not mentioned, but that you have used and you are not particularly fond of, whether Pentax or some screw mount?

I think we are a little bit closer to understanding more about the best portrait lenses. Thanks.
 
Pundit just 2 questions re the 100 WR for portraiture
1 Could it be too sharp? probably not at 2.8eg
2 Would the longer focus throw be a problem? - Wish they put a limiter on it.
--
Regards Dean - Capturing Creation
 
I'm afraid I don't really agree with the "too sharp for a portrait lens" concept just as long as the bokeh is decent.

If I want soft I'll just stick on my Jupiter 9 wide open and BINGO I've got SOFT!! ;)

Normally I'd rather start out sharp and do a little selective subtle softening in post if required, rather than start out soft and have to sharpen eyes and lips etc.

Generally for tight head-shots the most DOF I want is from the tip of the nose through to about 1cm behind the closest eye. This will still require stopping down maybe to around F5.6 - F8 with a 100mm lens in tight.

Though in this shot her head was turned putting her left eye, nose and mouth closer to the same plane so F4 was enough to cover all of those.

Vivitar 'Series 1' 105mm F2.5 macro - 150mm equivalent on 35mm (1/100th @ F4 800 ISO)



At F2.5 I would have only be able to get the one eye (or part thereof) in focus.

In some cases that may still be what I'm wanting so I want some decent sharpness wide open.

As for the limiter I'm kind of wondering how much of a PITA it may be without one.
I guess I'll need to try one out and see.

While I do prefer an AF 100mm lens if it wanders all over the place and takes ages to lock then I'll forget it and stick with my Vivitar 'Series 1' 105mm and probably look for a Voigtlander 125mm Macro f/2.5 APO-Lanthar... if I can even locate one! :O
Pundit just 2 questions re the 100 WR for portraiture
1 Could it be too sharp? probably not at 2.8eg
2 Would the longer focus throw be a problem? - Wish they put a limiter on it.
--
Regards Dean - Capturing Creation
 
Thanks Peter.

I have the FA77 and really like it but, as mentioned, I am looking for something longer.

The FA*85 1.4 does give pretty amazing results from what I've seen with the in-focus regions really popping right out of those dreamy backgrounds.
Now if only they made a FA*135 F2.0 !! ;)

I saw your post on the Voigtlander 125mm Macro f/2.5 APO-Lanthar which looks pretty incredible and is more the focal length that interests me. The downside is the lack of AF and of course the rarity and high cost.

Still it's something to think about! ;)
 
Than your wonderful FA77



--
Thommo
 
Out of the above I prefer the Vivitar 'Series 1' 105 F2.5 Macro over the FA77 Limited due to the longer focal length.

The Pentax D FA 100 F2.8 WR Macro looks interesting and I'm wondering if someone could post any portraits they have shot with this lens and I am especially interested in their thoughts if they also own a FA77 as well for a comparison.
I was going to suggest the DFA100WR as you mentioned you wanted something a bit tighter than your FA77. While I don't own this lens (yet), I've seen several portrait examples here that looked great. Just wondering, since your Vivitar Series 1 105 seems to work well, why not just keep using that?

Anyways, I just did some shooting this past weekend with my Vivitar Series 1 70-210/3.5 (I have the Kiron version). I discovered that most of my portrait-type shots were taken at 70mm. I was actually already set on getting the DA70, and this just reinforces that decision. While the Vivitar S1 zoom works very well, its bulk and weight makes taking it on certain excursions rather inconvenient.
 
Just wondering, since your Vivitar Series 1 105 seems to work well, why not just keep using that?
I just realized that this is a manual focus lens (like my Vivitar S1 zoom), and you want AF. It should've been obvious, as this is a big reason why I am getting the DA70.
 
You just beat me to it! ;)

However the Viv S1 105 is great for a 25 y/o lens and has an especially super fine/smooth manual focussing action. - I have a Katzeye 'Rule of Thirds' split focussing screen in my K-7 which helps ( I just re-shimmed the screen to correct the focus)

In a controlled environment such as during studio use the S1 105 is still very workable.
However for general stuff AF would definitely be desirable.
I just realized that this is a manual focus lens (like my Vivitar S1 zoom), and you want AF. It should've been obvious, as this is a big reason why I am getting the DA70.
 
Well I did see Peter J's post about this lens and it seems pretty damn fine.
If it was readily available I might even consider it in spite of no AF.
But as you say it is both expensive and now discontinued.
How about the Voigtlander 125/2.5 Apo-Lanthar? Fast, sharp, contrasty, outstanding bokeh. Being a true apochromatic lens, bokeh is not discolored, unlike most other fast lenses.

It is probably among the best lenses ever made, but that has driven up prices and made it difficult to find.

--
My Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36164047@N06/
 
Yes I agree with AF when it is working well it can't be beat, centre point Af on the eye or bridge of the nose, anyway I just ordered from here while the price is so good! I can't hold out any longer I just have to put it up against my FA100 2.8. I need a WR lens that's my excuse.

http://www.digidirect.com.au/camera_lenses/pentax/from/24

Why do Pentax have to make such great primes?
--
Regards Dean - Capturing Creation
 
Thanks... but I really should post something new for a change! ;)

I am yet to do the Silver Efex Pro treatment on some of them but I've had other things on... 'Film Noir' etc.

Is this 135 F2.8 Limited real or vapour ware?

I'd like to see a FA*135 F2 as in similar vein to the FA*85 F1.4... now that would be a killer portrait lens on an APS-C body!
Pundit,

Both these shots are etched in my memory from other threads, but for some reason I forgot it was you who took them. Almost forum-classics at those focal lengths, IMO.

Re the new lens you're looking for - try the new 135 f/2.8 Limited when it appears. ;)
 
--
kokopuffs
 
Oh goody! Now you can be my guinea pig! ;)

It doesn't seem too badly priced.
Are these Oz delivered lenses or imports?

I'd be interested to see some wide open close-up portraits when you get your hands on it.

Not sure if you saw this reply...

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=35595578
Yes I agree with AF when it is working well it can't be beat, centre point Af on the eye or bridge of the nose, anyway I just ordered from here while the price is so good! I can't hold out any longer I just have to put it up against my FA100 2.8. I need a WR lens that's my excuse.

http://www.digidirect.com.au/camera_lenses/pentax/from/24

Why do Pentax have to make such great primes?
--
Regards Dean - Capturing Creation
 
It is impossible to get both eyes in focus in a lot of closeups and still get good bokeh. I was wondering the other day whether something like HDR could be used to get everything in focus, i.e. taking 3 photos with slight shifts in focus and combining the best parts of them with some computer wizardry to make the final image. Something similar but not the same was attempted by Fuji to get a bokeh using shots with smaller apertures, I think.
 
They are OZ delivered (Frieght $15), Store is in Sydney and it is the best price I have seen.

Happy to oblige I can put it up against my DA70 open for Portrait and my FA100 closed for Macro - We will see how it goes.

Saw reply thanks Pundit.
--
Regards Dean - Capturing Creation
 

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