This Camera (Pro 14n) ROCKS!

Larry:

Wow, if you're happy with 1/90, then this 14n's shutter sync is gonna be 'new technology' for you. No, you won't miss a shot with your old F3, you'll just have lots of in-focus backgrounds when you want the background soft -- like for a tight portrait shot.

Leaf shutters on 2 1/4 --- sure, if that's what the client is paying for. Personally, I'd consider going digital to lighten the 'load' I carry. I have leaf shutters that sync to 1/1000 sec on my 2 1/4.

Besides, my state-of-the-art 35mm film cameras sync at 1/300 sec, and I can go to 1/4000 sec with special dedicated flash. Yes, it makes a difference. I've shot outdoor portraits at f2.0 in bright sun with balanced fill flash. Ever try that with your F3?

Thom

LarryK said:

Thomas Karlmann said:

Is there any chance the flash sync speed can be improved upon? I
hardly qualify 1/125 sec as a pro-level camera spec for Wedding
shoots -- especially with a $4000 price tag. We need to get that
sync speed UP for outdoor shooting as well!

Any thoughts?

Thom

Click to expand...

I don't know, my old Nikon F3 had a 1/90 flash sync, and I don't
recall missing all that many shots, even outdoors, and at the time
it was as good a "Pro" camera as there was.

I though all you "Pro" wedding photographers shot 2-1/4"s with leaf
shutters anyway.

Larry

Click to expand...

Don't sugarcoat it, Jay, give it to us straight!

JC

Jay Kelbley said:

Jay Kelbley said:

Jay Kelbley said:

(1) it's not professionally sealed - dust is a major
issue with dSLR's.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

This is complete cow dung..

Question:
Where does the dust come from, in a remove-able lense SLR?

Answer:
The big hole where the remove-albe lense goes...

Relative to dust, the lense mount (aka "the big hole") on a Nikon
camera is pretty much the same size as the hole on a Canon mount
camera..
The dust that could get on the sensor comes 100% through "the big
hole"...

-Jay

--
Jay Kelbley
-Eastman Kodak Company
[email protected]

Click to expand...

Scott you don't know what you're talking about- I live in south africa where the murder rate is almost as high as the birth rate - let alone hijacking and armed robbery- you live in paradise compared to me .

If you feel so strongly against something go start a guerilla movement of your own and get off this camera site - This site is for photography - not political ravers

Standard TTL Flash is better than D-TTL (S2 has TTL not D-TTL)
The CCD sees reflections -

Thomas Karlmann said:

Larry:

Wow, if you're happy with 1/90, then this 14n's shutter sync is
gonna be 'new technology' for you. No, you won't miss a shot with
your old F3, you'll just have lots of in-focus backgrounds when you
want the background soft -- like for a tight portrait shot.

Click to expand...

Well, that was a decade and a half ago or so, I've gone through at least a half a dozen nikons since then. Oh, and come to think of it it was only 1/80.

Thomas Karlmann said:

Besides, my state-of-the-art 35mm film cameras sync at 1/300 sec,
and I can go to 1/4000 sec with special dedicated flash. Yes, it
makes a difference. I've shot outdoor portraits at f2.0 in bright
sun with balanced fill flash. Ever try that with your F3?

Click to expand...

No, but since I spend most of my time shooting indoors with a few thousand watts of studio flashes, generally eschew the out of focus trend and will be shooting between f16 and 22 most of the time that's not an issue. I'm sure if I needed to I could find a body laying around here with a respectable flash sync and 85mm f1.4 that would do the trick nicely, if I still wanted to shoot film.

Clearly the Pro-14n is better suited to my needs than yours, that's why I preordered one.

Larry

P.S. State-of-the-Art Film Camera will soon be an oxymoron.

Jay Kelbley said:

The DTTL flash termination "Rocks" on this camera!

The SB80DX (and the SB50DX for that matter) work GREAT with the Pro
14n...

-Jay

--
Jay Kelbley
-Eastman Kodak Company
[email protected]

Click to expand...

D-TTL - Can it see reflections off the ccd ?

Thomas Karlmann said:

Leaf shutters on 2 1/4 --- sure, if that's what the client is
paying for. Personally, I'd consider going digital to lighten the
'load' I carry. I have leaf shutters that sync to 1/1000 sec on my
2 1/4.

Click to expand...

I'm curious about which lenses you have that sync to 1/1000 sec. I haven't been keeping up with this technology and I am interested in which lenses broke the 1/500 barrier?

Thomas Karlmann said:

Besides, my state-of-the-art 35mm film cameras sync at 1/300 sec,
and I can go to 1/4000 sec with special dedicated flash. Yes, it
makes a difference. I've shot outdoor portraits at f2.0 in bright
sun with balanced fill flash. Ever try that with your F3?

Click to expand...

Another tech question. Can you tell me about your 1/4000 dedicated flash system and which camera this works on?

Regarding the 1/125 on the 14n. Not being a wedding photographer this isn't essential for me and I usually prefer reflectors for outdoor work. However I can understand why you would want it.

But if it means the cost of the camera dramatically increases, I would rather see Kodak come out with another body "in addition to" rather than "instead of" this one.

BTW, the difference between 1/125 and 1/300 is only a little over a stop. Could this be overcome just by a small ND and a more powerful flash?
Rick

------- no camera sensor can read off the CCD at this time - the CCD or CMOS glow during capture whereas the old sensing technology actually read the reflected light from the film which was a matte finished emulsion and nicely matching the 18% grey for calibration purposes – it was easy enough as long as a fast responder was also incorporated in the command chain.

D-TTL works by sending out a preflash and reading from two sensors close to the CCD – the onboard electronic then extrapolates this measurement upwards for a full exposure (at least as far as the programmers made it go – the D100 typically under exposes for instance – Kodak could alter this). The Nikon-type D-TTL system are also meter responsive so they will act differently depending upon the choice of exposure metering (Matrix, Centre or Spot) and they also react differently in the mode chosen on the flash unit, D-TTL (preflash) Matrix (also linked to metering selection on the camera) is an excellent all round system and especially useful in the open and sunny conditions – this system will largely negate the fear of the slow flash sync in practice (as on my D100 anyway).

TTL (main light) and AA (aperture automatic) are flash unit response systems and rely on the onboard electronics of the flash unit itself to determine exposure. Cognisance is taken of the metering mode on the camera and especially spot metering so this must be known and accounted for. The flash unit will also adopt any compensating factor on the body of the camera. These systems are especially useful indoors as main light sources and to extract the maximum power from the flash unit when needed.

In triggering slave flash units the camera and or flash unit must be used in standard TTL or AA as the preflash from D-TTL will trigger the salve. Some slave triggers may be purchased that allow for the preflash via a selector switch.

George Vardas said:

D-TTL - Can it see reflections off the ccd ?

Click to expand...

--
A new me ................. ))

---------- A Nikon D1x is one camera with the SB28Dx (replaced by the SB80DX).

Nikon cameras: F5, F100, F90x, D1 series.

It is not on the D100.

The High Speed Flash system works by sending out multiple low powered flash pulses in manual and manul flash mode - no TTL.

The strength, series and intervals can all be altered to give a variety of effects in different conditions. For outdoor high speed flash to afford a wide aperture the apparatus may be rigged to accommodate shutter speeds on the D1 series from 1/500~1/16000 sec. Other speed limits apply depending on one’s settings and durations etc – it’s a little complex but a great tool to have in the bag – even if I have to read the manual to get it working.

Rick Boden said:

Another tech question. Can you tell me about your 1/4000 dedicated
flash system and which camera this works on?

Click to expand...

--
A new me ................. ))

Ok, I got it. Thanks! This looks like the same idea that Olympus brought out years ago. I don't know if I would ever use this much but I guess it would be better to have than have not. How is the usable flash output? Can you get a half-decent GN with the multiple flashes? I would think you would need a lot of pop at 1/4000.
Rick

Gerard. said:

The High Speed Flash system works by sending out multiple low
powered flash pulses in manual and manul flash mode - no TTL.

The strength, series and intervals can all be altered to give a
variety of effects in different conditions. For outdoor high speed
flash to afford a wide aperture the apparatus may be rigged to
accommodate shutter speeds on the D1 series from 1/500~1/16000 sec.
Other speed limits apply depending on one’s settings and durations
etc – it’s a little complex but a great tool to have in the bag –
even if I have to read the manual to get it working.

Click to expand...

Dust will come mostly from the air but the moving mechanisms of the D-SLR will also create dust on their own.

Dust is inevitable.

Dust will enter through the lens systems and especially on cheaper lens like the Sigma which are particularly un sealed – not that any lens is sealed but the AF-S Nikkor are both internally focussing and have weather seals which do keep down a percentage of dust penetration through the lens.

Dust is thrown out the back of lenses in AF operation and zooming – again the use of IF (internal focussing) and IZ (internal zooming) lenses will minimise the passage of dust in use. Lenses like the Nikkor AF-S series are particularly worth looking at from this point of view.

With my D1x I quickly discovered the folly of keeping old Nikkor lenses, which swished and swooshed and blew dust around in maddening proportions. I am replacing my lens collection with new AF-S lenses.

General precautions need to be adopted and a cleaner mindset needs to prevail. Changing lenses CAN be a high entry point – particularly in the rain and high winds – so avoid this (I have to do this as the need arises and I am not suffering as much dust as I did from using my old Nikkor glass). Keep your lenses clean – I keep mine in a clear plastic bags and I keep the rear covers on – I also will not let my cameras go without a body cap at any time when not sporting a lens.

Dust is something that will affect people differently – the person who will suffer the most is the small aperture user, as the dust effect is enhanced the smaller the aperture one uses. A very dusty CCD may show no signs of dust at F8 or F5.6 or above but may look like a sandstorm at F22.

CMOS sensors have traditionally been less prone to dust – it remains to be seen if this full frame sensor acts the same way. My hunch is that the dust problem will be a small one – the dust is also exacerbated by interpolation as in the D1x and the FujiS2s – the D1h does not suffer as much dust as the D1x whose image interpolation apparently increases the size of the dust particle in capture and artificially magnifies it. The full frame CMOS may have an opposite effect as all the dust issues so far have been on smaller sensor sizes – given that one would not expect an increase in dust then the dust settling on the larger CMOS will be more wide spread or apparently smaller – one could take another view by the same logic and say that proportionally more dust could settle. As the CCD is primarily responsible for actually attracting the dust to its surface I’d be inclined to think the former and that the available dust would be spread more widely.

--
A new me ................. ))

---------- yes I tried it on the OM series myself way back. I have also only tried the function on the Nikon and never actually used it on assignment. One does need a lot of pop and the unit soon over heats.

In practice one would need a few flash units for anything like a shoot as they need ten minute breaks after only a few shots – again depending on the output/frequency/interval and for outdoor sunshine use one tends to want the most power, highest frequency and shortest interval.

Rick Boden said:

Ok, I got it. Thanks! This looks like the same idea that Olympus
brought out years ago. I don't know if I would ever use this much
but I guess it would be better to have than have not. How is the
usable flash output? Can you get a half-decent GN with the
multiple flashes? I would think you would need a lot of pop at
1/4000.
Rick

Click to expand...

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=3477105

Check this out

......... I have and am intrigued – I was under the impression myself that the S2 was using a portion of the CCD to measure flash build up – reading reflectance from the surface is a new one on me – but they still shouldn’t be reading the actual luminance of the Super CCD – Fuji must have built in a few reflectors for this purpose.

Kodak has already stated that they are using the Nikon system, the Nikon system does not employ reading from the CCD during capture.

But I understand your initial question more now and it is not beyond the CMOS to offer the same – if necessary.

It comes down to what one considers a better system. I loved my OTF flash on the OM series that supported it – it was devil of a device for painting with light but I never found it satisfactory for normal flash control.

Nikon never offered OTF in the same way; flash was read off the film face once prior to exposure and never changed.

The OM OTF would shorten a long exposure with multiple flash build up. Does the S2 do the same?

George Vardas said:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=3477105

Check this out

Click to expand...

--
A new me ................. ))

Gerard. said:

---------- A Nikon D1x is one camera with the SB28Dx (replaced by
the SB80DX).

The High Speed Flash system works by sending out multiple low
powered flash pulses in manual and manul flash mode - no TTL.

The strength, series and intervals can all be altered to give a
variety of effects in different conditions. For outdoor high speed
flash to afford a wide aperture the apparatus may be rigged to
accommodate shutter speeds on the D1 series from 1/500~1/16000 sec.
Other speed limits apply depending on one’s settings and durations
etc – it’s a little complex but a great tool to have in the bag –
even if I have to read the manual to get it working.

Click to expand...

Well there,

I learned something new. I already have an SB28DX, so now when Nikon brings out a full frame DSLR I can buy it to go with the flash. I always thought it was only an Olympus trick.

Now that I think about it, I've always tried to shoot portraits (what few I'm called upon to do outdoors) in open shade anyway (I could always drag out the CP5K, it syncs fast and it's fine for an 8x10), so all the concern about bright sunlight and fill flash isn't much of an issue for me, but I wonder if all the Canon enthusiasts are whining about only getting 1/250 sync on the new 1Ds for twice as much money? I don't think they'll be shooting much at f2 with flash on a sunny day either.

I'm still thinking 14 megapixels for roughly four grand is a hell of a deal (but I'll let you know when it shows up).

Larry

Gerard. said:

Kodak has already stated that they are using the Nikon system, the
Nikon system does not employ reading from the CCD during capture.

But I understand your initial question more now and it is not
beyond the CMOS to offer the same – if necessary.

It comes down to what one considers a better system. I loved my OTF
flash on the OM series that supported it – it was devil of a device
for painting with light but I never found it satisfactory for
normal flash control.

Nikon never offered OTF in the same way; flash was read off the
film face once prior to exposure and never changed.

The OM OTF would shorten a long exposure with multiple flash build
up. Does the S2 do the same?

George Vardas said:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=3477105

Check this out

Click to expand...

--
A new me ................. ))

Click to expand...

It looks like Kodak have opted for D-TTL which is inferior to the TTL used in the fuji S2 Pro

LarryK said:

Gerard. said:

---------- A Nikon D1x is one camera with the SB28Dx (replaced by
the SB80DX).

The High Speed Flash system works by sending out multiple low
powered flash pulses in manual and manul flash mode - no TTL.

The strength, series and intervals can all be altered to give a
variety of effects in different conditions. For outdoor high speed
flash to afford a wide aperture the apparatus may be rigged to
accommodate shutter speeds on the D1 series from 1/500~1/16000 sec.
Other speed limits apply depending on one’s settings and durations
etc – it’s a little complex but a great tool to have in the bag –
even if I have to read the manual to get it working.

Click to expand...

Well there,

I learned something new. I already have an SB28DX, so now when
Nikon brings out a full frame DSLR I can buy it to go with the
flash. I always thought it was only an Olympus trick.

Now that I think about it, I've always tried to shoot portraits
(what few I'm called upon to do outdoors) in open shade anyway (I
could always drag out the CP5K, it syncs fast and it's fine for an
8x10), so all the concern about bright sunlight and fill flash
isn't much of an issue for me, but I wonder if all the Canon
enthusiasts are whining about only getting 1/250 sync on the new
1Ds for twice as much money? I don't think they'll be shooting much
at f2 with flash on a sunny day either.

I'm still thinking 14 megapixels for roughly four grand is a hell
of a deal (but I'll let you know when it shows up).

Larry

Click to expand...

I wrote this in another forum and it applies here also:

Does anybody remember 1/60 synch speed. We have gotten so spoiled. Kodak even admits this camera is not for everyone. The thing that kills me is were in the world will you be able to get a 42meg file from any 35mm size camera for under $5000.00 and give a wedding client a 20x30 print and not be embrassed by the quality. Remember the days of no motordrive I still have a wierd looking thumb from advancing film but that did not stop some of the best sport shooters in the world from taking great photos. Equipment is equipment pure and simple it is up to you to make it work for you not the other way around. We have had camera limitations for years stop the whining folks not just you Rodney but in all these forums. Kodak put a great product it is up to us great photographers to learn how to make it work for our needs. Ok I am done ranting and raving. And I apoligize to anyone in advance that feels hurt by my comment. But like I tell my 5 year old, do you want a lttle cheese with that whine!
Guy

Larry:

I completely agree with you. I may get the 14n myself. I just want it all! LOL Realizing how rapidly the DSLR world is a-changin' I think we will all be required to 'take what we can get'.

My hope in participating in these forums is to re-iterate what we as photographers NEED. To heck with what the mfr's are offering! If we cannot communicate what our needs are, then how will things get better?

Meanwhile, we can really have fun, and supply fine images to our clients, with cameras like the 14n.

As far as my needs go, I need it all: fast, furious, high image quality, (I get complaints for just 35mm!) AND I still set up a portrait 'studio' at the reception. So, maybe I at least deserve the big bucks, LOL. BTW, I love the 85/1.4 as well.

Thom

LarryK said:

Thomas Karlmann said:

Larry:

Wow, if you're happy with 1/90, then this 14n's shutter sync is
gonna be 'new technology' for you. No, you won't miss a shot with
your old F3, you'll just have lots of in-focus backgrounds when you
want the background soft -- like for a tight portrait shot.

Click to expand...

Well, that was a decade and a half ago or so, I've gone through at
least a half a dozen nikons since then. Oh, and come to think of it
it was only 1/80.

LarryK said:

Besides, my state-of-the-art 35mm film cameras sync at 1/300 sec,
and I can go to 1/4000 sec with special dedicated flash. Yes, it
makes a difference. I've shot outdoor portraits at f2.0 in bright
sun with balanced fill flash. Ever try that with your F3?

Click to expand...

No, but since I spend most of my time shooting indoors with a few
thousand watts of studio flashes, generally eschew the out of focus
trend and will be shooting between f16 and 22 most of the time
that's not an issue. I'm sure if I needed to I could find a body
laying around here with a respectable flash sync and 85mm f1.4 that
would do the trick nicely, if I still wanted to shoot film.

Clearly the Pro-14n is better suited to my needs than yours, that's
why I preordered one.

Larry

P.S. State-of-the-Art Film Camera will soon be an oxymoron.

Click to expand...

Rick: I'm glad someone caught that! Gee, folks actually read this stuff!

I have a 2 1/4 Rollei system, they have a few lenses whose shutter goes up to 1/1000. Lenses are the same, just faster shutters. They have solenoids in the lenses instead of springs. You sound like a Hassy guy.

My 35mm system's body syncs normally to 1/300, the flash unit is capable of "spreading its pulses out" to cover the entire time the slit is travelling across the film at those 1/4000 shutter times. The result is a dramatic reduction in guide number -- but I like the way Minolta implimented it on the Maxxum 9 (or 7) -- you just dial the shutter speed -- no "extra" modes to choose.

I doubt that many will switch from their comfy Hassy-Nikon-Canon systems to get these features --- in the film world, it gives me a slight edge.

As far as 'just the extra stop', perhaps this could be implimented on a 14n -- providing the higher or lower ISO's required are clean enough. Good point.

Thom

Rick Boden said:

Thomas Karlmann said:

Leaf shutters on 2 1/4 --- sure, if that's what the client is
paying for. Personally, I'd consider going digital to lighten the
'load' I carry. I have leaf shutters that sync to 1/1000 sec on my
2 1/4.

Click to expand...

I'm curious about which lenses you have that sync to 1/1000 sec. I
haven't been keeping up with this technology and I am interested in
which lenses broke the 1/500 barrier?

Rick Boden said:

Besides, my state-of-the-art 35mm film cameras sync at 1/300 sec,
and I can go to 1/4000 sec with special dedicated flash. Yes, it
makes a difference. I've shot outdoor portraits at f2.0 in bright
sun with balanced fill flash. Ever try that with your F3?

Click to expand...

Another tech question. Can you tell me about your 1/4000 dedicated
flash system and which camera this works on?

Regarding the 1/125 on the 14n. Not being a wedding photographer
this isn't essential for me and I usually prefer reflectors for
outdoor work. However I can understand why you would want it.
But if it means the cost of the camera dramatically increases, I
would rather see Kodak come out with another body "in addition to"
rather than "instead of" this one.
BTW, the difference between 1/125 and 1/300 is only a little over a
stop. Could this be overcome just by a small ND and a more
powerful flash?
Rick

Click to expand...

My apologies to a couple of guys who thought I was talking about Nikon flash units!

Thom