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What is DPR doing?

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andrewrocks

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this was originally going to be a reply for the "weirdest con in any review" thread... but I became sidetracked.

DPR makes the assumption that the 16mm pancake for the NEX is an odd lens for it's target market. They say it's too wide, dof is too large, it's bad for portraits. And they're right. There are definite downsides to to this lens... But there are some definite upsides to this as well. None of which DPR paid any attention to.

one thing DPR does look over is the the dof of this lens on a contrast based autofocus camera means you have much more leeway in focus accuracy. I used work in a camera store and 80, if not 90% of my customers who buy point and shoots ALWAYS complain about blurry photos. They do not complain about the lack of shallow DOF on their camera, or the UI. As for as they're concerned they just want the damn shot in focus.

I'm curious, DPR how does the m43 cameras fare with AF and shallow DOF? Are they accurate? And what lenses were used in your focusing tests? What's the protocol? When was the last time DPR actually review an ultra compact camera? As far as I can tell, the last time DPR reviewed a Sony ultra compact was over 2 years ago. How much "experience" does DPR have with actual compact camera users?

and I agree that these so called "gear arguments" while as lame and pedantic as they seem on the surface, i think the real reason people are arguing is not necessarily the fact that the NEX/A550/whichever camera scored lower, it's the lack of REAL empirical reviews and these subjective analysis provided by DPR. You provide focus timings for the mirrorless cameras but you make no mention of how accuracy is tested for. Our arguments are then further bolstered when you have DPR staffers make such claims as ...
Simon Joinson said:
"I'm presuming you've used every SLR on the market since 1996 extensively - I know I have."
SJ

Simon Joinson, dpreview.com
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What is Simon implying? Based on his vast SLR experience he cannot be wrong? That his conclusion is simply infallible because he's used EVERY SLR since 1996? How absurd.

Oh, and lets not forget about the ban of David Kilpatrick. Please don't ban me DPR!
 
andrewrocks wrote:

. Our arguments are then further bolstered when you have DPR staffers make such claims as ...
andrewrocks said:
Simon Joinson said:
"I'm presuming you've used every SLR on the market since 1996 extensively - I know I have."
SJ

Simon Joinson, dpreview.com
Click to expand...
What is Simon implying? Based on his vast SLR experience he cannot be wrong? That his conclusion is simply infallible because he's used EVERY SLR since 1996? How absurd.
Click to expand...
Ah the joys of selective quoting. This was in reply to the following: 'I bought and own the Alpha 550. It is the best dSLR I have ever used' , used to imply I was wrong in my opinion of a camera reviewed a few months back.

My point, as I'm sure you know well, was that 'the best I've ever used' means little unless we know how many other DLSRs you've used, and almost nothing if the answer isn't 'all the competitor cameras'.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that this person is wrong (I've no doubt it is the best SLR he's ever used, since he has no reason to lie), but that without context this has little value when trying to prove me wrong in opinion that the A550 isn't the best SLR on the market.
andrewrocks said:
Oh, and lets not forget about the ban of David Kilpatrick. Please don't ban me DPR!
Click to expand...
DK demanded a ban and could, in fact, be posting here today if he hadn't escalated a small disagreement into a very public spat.

Simon
--
Simon Joinson, dpreview.com
 
andrewrocks said:
one thing DPR does look over is the the dof of this lens on a contrast based autofocus camera means you have much more leeway in focus accuracy.
Click to expand...
If you've used any of these cameras with highly-developed CDAF, you'll understand that focus accuracy tends to be exceptionally high with static subjects - by the nature of the system you don't get the front- or rear-focusing issues that you can with the phase-detect systems on SLRs. The Panasonic Gs, Olympus Pens, Samsung NX and Sony NEXs are all excellent with regards to focus accuracy, regardless of lens. The competition work very well with their fast normals such as the 20/1.7 or 30/2.
andrewrocks said:
I used work in a camera store and 80, if not 90% of my customers who buy point and shoots ALWAYS complain about blurry photos. They do not complain about the lack of shallow DOF on their camera, or the UI. As for as they're concerned they just want the damn shot in focus.
Click to expand...
With modern multi-point and face detection AF systems, focusing errors have been massively reduced from the bad old days of cameras which focused on narrow regions in the center of the frame. Using a wide angle lens to get depth of field means that you run the risk of your subjects ending up tiny specs in a vast expanse of empty space.
andrewrocks said:
I'm curious, DPR how does the m43 cameras fare with AF and shallow DOF? Are they accurate?
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Yes, very.
andrewrocks said:
And what lenses were used in your focusing tests?
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Perhaps if you look at our lens review page you'll see that we've shot extensively with practically every m43 lens on the market. All focus very accurately; as I said before that's one of the strengths of CDAF. The weakness now is maintaining focus on moving subjects, and the NEXs are no better than the m43 cameras in this regard.
andrewrocks said:
What's the protocol? When was the last time DPR actually review an ultra compact camera?
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We reviewed many, many compact cameras last year as part of our group tests, which have pretty well supplanted doing individual camera reviews now (we're doing another round now). We know exactly how well they work.
andrewrocks said:
As far as I can tell, the last time DPR reviewed a Sony ultra compact was over 2 years ago.
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A little more recent than that (although still not as recently as we'd ideally have liked):

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/Q408slimgroup/page10.asp
andrewrocks said:
How much "experience" does DPR have with actual compact camera users?
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Well, reality is we all have friends and family, and most of those are of course compact camera users. We understand fully that a lot of people just want to zoom, press the shutter button, and get excellent results.
andrewrocks said:
You provide focus timings for the mirrorless cameras but you make no mention of how accuracy is tested for.
Click to expand...
Oh, that's easy. You may not realise this unless you look at the galleries, including the EXIF dates and file numbering, but we do that by taking hundreds of photos out in the real world with each camera. Because ultimately that's what matters, right?

--
Andy Westlake
http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews
 
I am user of A700 with F2.8 zooms.

I definitely want to buy a NEX camera with pancake lens for this reasons:

I want DSLR quality in my pocket when doing xc skiing or cycling. Only possibility is a pancake lens. I want to shoot landscapes, group photos and some unusual portraits during these activities. (I am using my i Phone for it now :-P.)

The ability to shoot ISO 3200 with a 2.8 lens indoors is just a nice topping to the whole thing.
 
andrewrocks said:
How much "experience" does DPR have with actual compact camera users?
Click to expand...
We're currently working on two group tests which will cover just over 20 compact cameras and a quick count here shows we have around 40 compact cameras in the office which are used on and off by various people here. We also have a couple more compact reviews in the pipeline.

Personally over the years I've probably used 200 or more compact cameras. Between us we've probably used 70% of mainstream compact cameras ever released (we use many more than get reviewed).

--
Phil Askey
Editor, dpreview.com
 
speedy_gonzales said:
I am user of A700 with F2.8 zooms.

I definitely want to buy a NEX camera with pancake lens for this reasons:
I want DSLR quality in my pocket when doing xc skiing or cycling.
Click to expand...
Same with me. I planNED to get it only with pancake lens and for rest, I was thinking of getting LA-EA1 and use my A-mount lens until they come with more quality primes that are not too huge. But decided to wait for user reviews on how easy/annoying UI is for regular use.
 
Do you think the time has come for some formal statement from DP Review about the NEX review, Phil?

As you can clearly see, there's a whole load of disquiet on the forums and we have the ugly site of your staff engaged in open argument that's falling little short of a slanging match.

Perhaps time for just a little humility and a "OK, maybe we got it slightly wrong" comment? It's hard to argue that you were correct on every single point, especially in light of some of the evidence some posters on here have revealed.

Digging your heals in on every single point just makes it look more and more like a cover up.
 
Chippy99 said:
Do you think the time has come for some formal statement from DP Review about the NEX review, Phil?

As you can clearly see, there's a whole load of disquiet on the forums and we have the ugly site of your staff engaged in open argument that's falling little short of a slanging match.

Perhaps time for just a little humility and a "OK, maybe we got it slightly wrong" comment? It's hard to argue that you were correct on every single point, especially in light of some of the evidence some posters on here have revealed.

Digging your heals in on every single point just makes it look more and more like a cover up.
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This is bizarre - just because some of the people in these forums think we're wrong, it doesn't automatically follow that we are . As it happens, we stand by our (collective) comments on the NEX. Both good and bad.

--
Technical Writer
http://www.dpreview.com
 
Chippy99 said:
Do you think the time has come for some formal statement from DP Review about the NEX review, Phil?
Click to expand...
On what basis?
Chippy99 said:
As you can clearly see, there's a whole load of disquiet on the forums and we have the ugly site of your staff engaged in open argument that's falling little short of a slanging match.
Click to expand...
Sorry, you come here, to our site, and make unqualified, uneducated statements about bias and inaccuracies in our work and we're not allowed to respond?
Chippy99 said:
Perhaps time for just a little humility and a "OK, maybe we got it slightly wrong" comment? It's hard to argue that you were correct on every single point, especially in light of some of the evidence some posters on here have revealed.
Click to expand...
If we believed there were any mistakes they would be corrected.
Chippy99 said:
Digging your heals in on every single point just makes it look more and more like a cover up.
Click to expand...
No, it looks like we have the courage of our convictions.

--
Phil Askey
Editor, dpreview.com
 
Simon Joinson said:
Ah the joys of selective quoting. This was in reply to the following: 'I bought and own the Alpha 550. It is the best dSLR I have ever used' , used to imply I was wrong in my opinion of a camera reviewed a few months back.

My point, as I'm sure you know well, was that 'the best I've ever used' means little unless we know how many other DLSRs you've used, and almost nothing if the answer isn't 'all the competitor cameras'.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that this person is wrong (I've no doubt it is the best SLR he's ever used, since he has no reason to lie), but that without context this has little value when trying to prove me wrong in opinion that the A550 isn't the best SLR on the market.
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my point still stands, Simon.

It's a red herring. You're not answering his questions. That poster has legitimate complaints, but because you feel he's not experienced enough to ask those questions. You're ignoring them. His question wasn't why the a550 isn't the best slr in the world, but it was why was it not given a fair review. His mentioning of the camera being the best he has used is nothing more then just a supporting arguement for his claim. He is asking why it received the score it did.

You'd make for a great politician over here in the States, Simon :D
MCromer said:
Because, unfortunately, after the way you treated the Alpha 550 so unfairly versus its competition, I can't really trust you to do any better with the NEX. Maybe you're right -- the UI is so bad that I shouldn't buy the camera. But I honestly have lost faith in your ability to evaluate that.
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The shortcomings noted by DPR of the NEX 16mm lens seem to have drawn a fair bit of criticism. I'm surprised on the one hand and not on the other. There appears to be an element that wishes to defend Sony offerings under any circumstances and another that wishes to be critical. All to frequently they each twist the words of the other to suit their agenda.

In the case of the NEX 16mm issue, I find it even more baffling that Sony would offer a 16mm lens as a kit than if they offered a similar focal length lens on an A700 or any APS-C DSLR. One difference is a purchaser of an A700 would have a better chance of making an informed buying decision because there is a better chance your typical A700 buyer would know the applications for such a lens. In my opinion a typical NEX purchaser has tried some P&S cameras and is now ready to move up to a more sophisticated system. A NEX kit with a 70mm would be no different. Not a bad lens, not without its place but hardly a starting point for a camera system. I don't get what all the uproar is about in this case. Read what DPR said and it makes perfect sense to me. If this is the best evidence of an anti-Sony bias by DPR then I'm sorry but it doesn't hold much water with me.
 
I do have to say... I commend DPR on being stubborn/passionate about this. :D You guys seem relatively open for dialogue. I'm not necessarily clamoring about a re-review or any adjustment done to any review. I do feel that there might be some bias, and I think some transparency would go along way towards solving this.

On the flip side of alot of these arguments, I wouldn't want DPR to willy-nilly change their reviews because people are screaming one for.
 
andrewrocks said:
my point still stands, Simon.

It's a red herring. You're not answering his questions. That poster has legitimate complaints, but because you feel he's not experienced enough to ask those questions. You're ignoring them. His question wasn't why the a550 isn't the best slr in the world, but it was why was it not given a fair review. His mentioning of the camera being the best he has used is nothing more then just a supporting arguement for his claim. He is asking why it received the score it did.
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Apologies to Simon for replying to this post before he does, but I'm surprised you don't see the solipsism inherent in your position - you don't think that we were fair on the A550. We believe that we were. Just because you (and the OP) don't agree, it doesn't make you right, any more than it makes us wrong.

The A550 was assessed on its merits, on the basis of a lot of experience. The OP loves it? Great, good for him. We had a lot of good things to say about it too, as it happens, but we also had some criticisms. Some of our criticisms might be shared by you, some might be irrelevant to you. That's life.

--
Technical Writer
http://www.dpreview.com
 
To be fair Simon, having read your reply in context, I believe you could have chosen your words more carefully. If you had said, "The best DSLR I have ever used only has meaning when put when one knows the number of DSLR's in the test', then that would be fine. Your comment sounded condescending and sarcastic. I know you guys get crap like that for many posters here but I believe you should come from a higher place when you post here.
 
Andy Westlake said:
andrewrocks said:
I do feel that there might be some bias, and I think some transparency would go along way towards solving this.
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What could be more transparent that addressing the questions and criticisms made about our reviews on these forums?

--
Andy Westlake
http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews
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Except, that has not been happening. DPR's response has largely been avoiding the questions I feel. And telling us we lack the experience to make these criticisms.

I do think this entire NEX situation is getting pretty out of hand, and I can totally understand the position you guys are in. I'm glad i'm not there :D You're damned if you do, damned if you don't.
 
While to me the conclusion appears to have a strong bias against sony ,i mean some of the cons are just plain silly.
How come it didn't get points for being so small.

you could have put the high iso in pros list and added ( highest iso settings aren't available in i auto)

also about the shot to shot performance its almost the same say the EPL1,yet you don't critized the EPL1 for that.
EPL1



NEX5



source http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=1&ma1=16&mo1=1122&p1=8727&ma2=32&mo2=1057&p2=8166&ph=21
 
andrewrocks said:
andrewrocks wrote:

When was the last time DPR actually review an ultra compact camera? As far as I can tell, the last time DPR reviewed a Sony ultra compact was over 2 years ago. How much "experience" does DPR have with actual compact camera users?
Click to expand...
I bought a little Sony WX1 to augment my Canon 5D, because, well, I can take the little WX1 anywhere. It doesn't even have A, S, or M modes, but it is fun to use and takes great snaps. Exposure compensation is adjustable, and it focuses well, often better than my 5D. The lens has an equivalent focal length of 24mm at it's wide end, which is where I get hung up. 90% of my photos with the WX1 inevitably end up being shot at 24mm equiv (identical to the 16mm prime on the NEX)... Especially, for indoor people shots. Part of the appeal of shooting this wide, is composing the shot on the LCD - it really is an engaging experience. You often hear people describe the results when shooting people shots with a wide focal lenght as 'unflattering', but most consumers don't give a rat's ass about technically perfect photos - they want crisp, punchy, fun photos, and the wide lens and the perspective that it gives is really great for that.

The NEX is essentially a WX1 on stearoids: DSLR photo quality, PLUS it has A and S modes, PLUS it has an exposure compensation button, the list goes on. I cannot see how someone who likes using a WX1, for instance, could possibly have any problems with the NEX.

Here are some wide-angle WX1 shots from my flickr account:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jankritzinger/sets/72157623177625071/
 
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