Why is Kodak Software So Great?

There are everywere good and bad ones, independent from
nationality, sorry, but I have to tell this...
You're absolutely right. I didn't mean to imply anything here (although the way I worded it did, unfortunately).
Really the point I was trying to make is twofold:
  • Kodak has been developing camera SW longer than anyone else since they were the only game in town for many years. Really good sw is rarely developed overnight but evolves over time. Specifically, I have yet to see anything but mediocre sw from either Nikon or Canon, but I would attribute this to management rather than the skill of individual programmers.
  • I think that Kodak is more inclined to pay attention to feedback and suggestions from photographers than Nikon or Canon.
  • The US and Germany have the longest history of sw development and tend to dominate the industry, although certainly there are some top notch products from elsewhere (eg Opera, from Norway).
  • DL
 
Rick,

On my D30, the previes from RAW files come up in about 1 second and they are full screen. What is displayed is the embedded JPEG which I believe is somewhere around 1440x960. Now there are different captured modes for the 1D and D60. So I'm not sure what their emdedded preview sizes are but whatever they are they are much bigger than thumbnail size.
With the 1D, one has
many options. These embedded JPEGs display with lightning speed so
you have the same options available to you (quick preview to decide
which to use) have with Photo Desk.
Hi Mike,
How big are the previews? The Kodak previews are fast and they
fill the screen making editing decisions very easy. If the Canon
delivers screen sized fast previews, then that is good too. If
they are small, then I wouldn't compare to PhotoDesk.

Rick
 
Rick,

WIth Canon cameras on the PC, most people don't use Canon's software. They use either Yarc Plus or BreezeBrowser. I use Breeze. Nothing that has been mentioned anywhere in this thread as of the time of posting (10/10/02-12:21 EST) with regard to Kodak's Photo Desk can't be done in Breeze. But there is stuff in Breeze that can't be done with Photo Desk. Namely, a very versitile template based HTML generator. It is so good, that I even recommend it for use with TIF and JPEG files regardless of what camera they come from. Kodak's Photo Desk seems to be of limited use if one doesn;t shoot Kodak RAW files. But Breeze has tremendous value with plain jane JPEG files.

Download it and see for yourself ( http://www.breezesys.com ).
you have the same options available to you (quick preview to decide
which to use) have with Photo Desk.
Mike,

I did a quick search and found why Canon's software may work as
well as the Kodak Photo Desk. According to this article is it
basically a clone of the Kodak software....

http://www.robgalbraith.com/diginews/2001-09/2001_09_28_eos1d_software.html

Rick
 
What does it do that the Nikon or Canon software will not do? What
does it do better than the Nikon or Canon software? So far nobody
has been able to do this.
Hi Tom,
Aren't you reading these posts? The review function was mentioned
and I asked if Canon or Nikon software let you view screen sized
raw files. So far nobody has said they can (or confirmed that
Canon can).
Yes on software for Canon cameras. You can preview screen sized images of the embbed JPEG file. No RAW conversion is necessary and thus, it is fast. But note, most/many on ths PC don't use Canon's software. They use either BreezeBrowser or Yarc Plus. Both of these codes are built on Canon DLLs for RAW file conversion. But they wrap a lot more value around those DLLs than Canon's own software.
Here's another point. You can download the Kodak software. Does
Canon or Nikon even have a demo? I'd like to try it if it did.
Like in the other post, download BreezeBrowser at http://www.breezesys.com . It started as a RAW file converter but now offers so much more, even for those that have JPEG files produced from other cameras.
 
I couldn't hope to master Photodesk in one evening so I may be missing some hidden things and do not mean to slight the software in any way. If I missed something please let me know.

My first observation of the Kodak software is the highly integrated browser and image editing capabilities. Nikon uses two programs to accomplish the same tasks.

As a result, I love the way Photodesk deals with thumbnails. They open quickly and the quality of the thumbnail image is better than with Nikonview. The largest thumbnail size available in Photodesk is larger than the largest thumbnail size available in Nikonview.

However, the coolest thing about the closely integrated browsing and editing functions in Photodesk is that one can make all of the image adjustments possible to the thumbnail image without ever opening the larger image. This makes adjustments to a lot of images much faster than having to render each file to full size before making adjustments. This is cool.

As far as opening full size NEF (Nikon raw images) or rendering full size Kodak DCR images, I found that both programs take roughly the same amount of time.

Exposure control - A wash, both programs work equally well.

White Balance - Nikon Capture has more flexibility. Not only can one select the course adjustments of tungsten, flash, daylight, etc., but one can also fine tune these adjustments to daylight/cloudy, daylight/shadow, daylight/full sun, etc. The adjustment can be fine tuned even further with a slider calibrated in plus or minus degrees calvin.

Sharpness - Again Nikon Capture has more flexibilty. Not only can one select base levels of sharpening, but one can also enable an unsharp mask feature. I noticed that when I changed the sharpness setting in Photodesk, I could not see any change in either the thumnail image or a full size image. It appears that Photodesk may not be applying these adjustments to the on screen image?

Histogram - Kodak offers a histogram but I could not see where it is very useful. With the Nikon software, one has access to Photoshop "Levels" like sliders on the histogram. One can adjust the black point, white point, and overall brightness of the image while viewing the histogram.

Curves - I could not find a curves adjustment in the Kodak software. The Nikon software has a fully functional Photoshop like curves adjustment.

Color Balance - The Nikon Software has a Photoshop like color balance adjustment that allows one to adjust overall brightness, contrast, and color balance. This comes in real handy when needing to perk up an image with a little extra contrast.

Zoom Control - The Nikon Software has much more flexibility than the Kodak software. The Kodak software allows one to zoom the image to 25%, 50%, 100%, and 200%. The Nikon software allows one to zoom infinitely (at least as far as anyone should ever want to go) out and in. The Nikon software also uses the Photoshop standard of + and - (WIN) for zooming.

Image Scroll - The Nikon Software uses the defacto standard of a little hand to move an image around on the screen when it has been zoomed in making the image larger than the screen can display. The Kodak software allows one to scroll the image via sliders but does not make use of the little hand. I find this kind of strange since the hand is implemented in other functions like the crop tool.

Color Management - The Kodak software allows one to select color profiles for the printer, but I could not see where a monitor profile could be selected. Maybe the software is picking up the monitor profile from somewhere else. The thumbnails and images look pretty good, though, so there may be something going on behind the scenes that I don't see. I will say that the color fidelity of the Kodak thumbnails is much better than the color fidelity of the Nikon thumbnails.

So there is what I have observed. One can argue that some of the items I listed as advantages in the Nikon software (curves, color balance, unsharp mask) can be applied in Photoshop. This is true. However, IMO, it is always better to be able to apply options to the raw file rather than waiting to apply them at a later time. Then if one needs to go back and reuse the raw file, there is no need to remember and reapply the Photoshop changes made during the first use of the file.

Clearly, I like the way Photodesk is an integrated browser and editor. Kodak has done a very good job of integrating the two pieces to function better as a whole than Nikon's two program solution. I do think that compared to Nikon Capture's image editing capabilities, Kodak Photodesk 2.0 is less mature in both offering and implementation. It lacks several of the options available in Nikon Capture and the interface does not parallel the Photoshop interface as closely as Nikon Capture does. Let's face it, Photoshop is the standard for photo editing so not having to learn a different interface is a plus. Photodesk 2.0 gets the job done and does an excellent job of managing image work flow. This is extremely important in high volume environments.

Again, this is a highly unscientic comparison of the two programs. I can find no evidence to say that one is "CLEARLY SUPERIOR" to the other. They both do a good job of what they were intended to do.

Take care!

Tom
 
Hi

I am happy to see that you made your statement a bit clearer now. Initially it sounded a bit like to give us all a smile as well, which possibly is a need here too, with all the sometimes dry discussions (-;
You're absolutely right. I didn't mean to imply anything here
(although the way I worded it did, unfortunately).
Really the point I was trying to make is twofold:
  • Kodak has been developing camera SW longer than anyone else since
they were the only game in town for many years. Really good sw is
rarely developed overnight but evolves over time. Specifically, I
have yet to see anything but mediocre sw from either Nikon or
Canon, but I would attribute this to management rather than the
skill of individual programmers.
From your point of view there is some truth in it. I wouldn't say either that Nikon SW is brilliant. But I feel N* is learning here.
  • I think that Kodak is more inclined to pay attention to feedback
and suggestions from photographers than Nikon or Canon.
Might be true as well, but look at their market and price levels in the past. I simply think there was a must to do so...
  • The US and Germany have the longest history of sw development and
tend to dominate the industry, although certainly there are some
top notch products from elsewhere (eg Opera, from Norway).
Might be true as well but does mean nothing realy serious if it comes to true innovations.

Regards, A. Schiele
 
Tom,

Does Kodak have RAW files on their web site to download? I've been playing with Photo Desk but it's really of limited use when used without RAW files.
 
Hi Tom,

Thanks very much for providing that comparison between Photodesk and the Nikon software!

BTW, I meant to ask this before...but going back to the original thread, who has been touting Kodak software as the best? It seems to me that I have also heard/read this but I can't really remember where.

Back to your review, I was initially surprised to find that Photodesk only seems to provide an exposure control and a few colour selections, and not Photoshop-like curves and levels plus colour controls. I understand the software for the MF back has these features. I also wonder how necessary these controls are if you are getting a 16bit image into Photoshop. I would like to have them just the same.

Rick

T
 
Hi Mike, I checked out the BreezeBrowser site but it doesn't look like a Mac-compatible program. (don't you hate it when you can't find which platform is supported without weeding through a number of pages?)

I am not that interested in things like HTML generation although I suppose it would be nice. I have another program I use for cataloging. My main interest besides good RAW conversion, is the ability to edit the raw images like I would loupe slides on a light table.

I am impressed with the ability of Photodesk to show me screen-sized images without having to wait 5 seconds for the next image to show up. The Kodak takes less than a second. If your Breeze software can do that , (and I had a Canon and a PC :-) ) I would be interested.

Rick
Rick,

WIth Canon cameras on the PC, most people don't use Canon's
software. They use either Yarc Plus or BreezeBrowser. I use Breeze.
Nothing that has been mentioned anywhere in this thread as of the
time of posting (10/10/02-12:21 EST) with regard to Kodak's Photo
Desk can't be done in Breeze. But there is stuff in Breeze that
can't be done with Photo Desk. Namely, a very versitile template
based HTML generator. It is so good, that I even recommend it for
use with TIF and JPEG files regardless of what camera they come
from. Kodak's Photo Desk seems to be of limited use if one doesn;t
shoot Kodak RAW files. But Breeze has tremendous value with plain
jane JPEG files.

Download it and see for yourself ( http://www.breezesys.com ).
 
Hey Rick!

Gee now that you mention it, I can't pin down who in particular has toughted the SW as clearly superior. Perhaps it is Kodak sales saying it. I know that I have heard from Kodak users and seminar speakers about how "Awesome" the software is and how it is what makes the Kodak solution so much better than the other solutions. Maybe I am overblowing the position but at this point I don't see a clear advanatage to the Kodak software.

Hmmmm you say the MF back software is different? I was not aware of that either. I guess I would have to ask the rhetorical question - Why? I thought one of Kodaks selling points is crossfunctionality between all of their platforms and software. This concerns me a little. Do you know what the MF back software is called if not Photodesk 2.0?

I guess having a deeper bit depth is a plus but I don't think it supercedes good control within the software. I am with you, I would like to see the functionality that I mentioned above in the software. Maybe it will be there in a later release.

Thanks for the feedback. Let me know if you find out any other good info.

Take care!
 
Hi Mike, I checked out the BreezeBrowser site but it doesn't look
like a Mac-compatible program. (don't you hate it when you can't
find which platform is supported without weeding through a number
of pages?)

I am not that interested in things like HTML generation although I
suppose it would be nice.
You would find it almost indespensible if you were an event shooter who posts to the web to sell images. Breeze has built within it the ability for one to produce web pages with"ordering" capability. This is what separates it. Navigate to: http://www.greeraa.com/albums/example . This is an example page generated entirely from Breeze (I had to edit some fo the templates to get them to do what I needed done). Now, I can shoot an event, process the images, and post them to the web for purchase without ever having to use another piece of software.
I have another program I use for
cataloging. My main interest besides good RAW conversion, is the
ability to edit the raw images like I would loupe slides on a light
table.

I am impressed with the ability of Photodesk to show me
screen-sized images without having to wait 5 seconds for the next
image to show up. The Kodak takes less than a second. If your
Breeze software can do that , (and I had a Canon and a PC :-) ) I
would be interested.

Rick
Rick,

WIth Canon cameras on the PC, most people don't use Canon's
software. They use either Yarc Plus or BreezeBrowser. I use Breeze.
Nothing that has been mentioned anywhere in this thread as of the
time of posting (10/10/02-12:21 EST) with regard to Kodak's Photo
Desk can't be done in Breeze. But there is stuff in Breeze that
can't be done with Photo Desk. Namely, a very versitile template
based HTML generator. It is so good, that I even recommend it for
use with TIF and JPEG files regardless of what camera they come
from. Kodak's Photo Desk seems to be of limited use if one doesn;t
shoot Kodak RAW files. But Breeze has tremendous value with plain
jane JPEG files.

Download it and see for yourself ( http://www.breezesys.com ).
 
Hi Tom,

Thanks very much for providing that comparison between Photodesk
and the Nikon software!

BTW, I meant to ask this before...but going back to the original
thread, who has been touting Kodak software as the best?
Rick,

I too have read this MANY times. But not in this forum as I only strated looking at this forum a few days ago. But on other forums where DSLRs get discussed the suprimacy of Kodak software seems to always find its way into the discussion. But when pressed, nobody has ever prodived any objetive reasoning. Now that I think about it, it seems like most of the comments come from Mac users. I'm wondering if that is because RAW conversion options on the Mac platform tend to be limited to the software supplied by the manufacturer?

It seems
to me that I have also heard/read this but I can't really remember
where.

Back to your review, I was initially surprised to find that
Photodesk only seems to provide an exposure control and a few
colour selections, and not Photoshop-like curves and levels plus
colour controls. I understand the software for the MF back has
these features. I also wonder how necessary these controls are if
you are getting a 16bit image into Photoshop. I would like to have
them just the same.

Rick

T
 
Hi Tom,

The software is called "Capture Studio". I too would like to know more about this and whether it may be an option for the 14n. Maybe there is a Kodak expert here who could give us a little more info.

Rick
Hmmmm you say the MF back software is different? I was not aware
of that either. I guess I would have to ask the rhetorical
question - Why? I thought one of Kodaks selling points is
crossfunctionality between all of their platforms and software.
This concerns me a little. Do you know what the MF back software
is called if not Photodesk 2.0?
 
Well, I can't comment on how great the software is but version 3 which will be released with the camera and is the ONLY version that will decode the new RAW files will not be supported or tested on Win98SE. Some of us have lagacy devices/software that force us to remain on Win98Se for the time being.

If I were to upgrade to Win 2000 now, I would face $200-$300 minimum tech charges, $200 for O.S, and to upgrade my software and Photoshop plugins anywhere from $200-$1000 depending on how many of them I want to keep. Little used ones would just not be loaded(upgraded), so I would in any event lose functionality for those rare images that DO use my legacy plugins/software. And we are not talking about software that is that old either. I have applications in graphics that are only two years old and won't run on Win 2000, at least not tested.

To do a reliable drive copy of my old system I will have to find a blank SCSI drive as I understand from my tech that with my ScSCI drives it is harder to mirror the disk for backup in case I need to return to Win98.(?)

Also, I have to be sure that all of my many periperhals have updated drivers for Win 2000, and will run properly under it, or I'll be replacing things like $$film scanners, printers, flatbeds, etc.

Jay Kelby's advice is to- simply upgrade to Win 2000, and eventually for other applications like photoshop 8 or 9 I'm sure that will force my hand. Right now I don't want to do it just because Kodak has decided not to support a still viable OS-I know of no other graphics software that I use anyway that has written off Win 98SE also.

I have also been advised to switch over to MAC, somewhat unreasonably, not because it's a good or bad system, but because of the even more expensive proposition it entails in hardware/ software, etc.

I am getting close to the realm of simply having to buy another computer, perhaps a notebook, with Win 2000 or XP on it, simply for Kodak version 3 of software. Hopefully a 3rd party solution will be available.
End of rant,
Jim H.
 
Well, I can't comment on how great the software is but version 3
which will be released with the camera and is the ONLY version that
will decode the new RAW files will not be supported or tested on
Win98SE. Some of us have lagacy devices/software that force us to
remain on Win98Se for the time being.

If I were to upgrade to Win 2000 now, I would face $200-$300
minimum tech charges, $200 for O.S, and to upgrade my software and
Photoshop plugins anywhere from $200-$1000 depending on how many of
them I want to keep. Little used ones would just not be
loaded(upgraded), so I would in any event lose functionality for
those rare images that DO use my legacy plugins/software. And we
are not talking about software that is that old either. I have
applications in graphics that are only two years old and won't run
on Win 2000, at least not tested.

To do a reliable drive copy of my old system I will have to find a
blank SCSI drive as I understand from my tech that with my ScSCI
drives it is harder to mirror the disk for backup in case I need to
return to Win98.(?)

Also, I have to be sure that all of my many periperhals have
updated drivers for Win 2000, and will run properly under it, or
I'll be replacing things like $$film scanners, printers, flatbeds,
etc.

Jay Kelby's advice is to- simply upgrade to Win 2000, and
eventually for other applications like photoshop 8 or 9 I'm sure
that will force my hand. Right now I don't want to do it just
because Kodak has decided not to support a still viable OS-I know
of no other graphics software that I use anyway that has written
off Win 98SE also.

I have also been advised to switch over to MAC, somewhat
unreasonably, not because it's a good or bad system, but because of
the even more expensive proposition it entails in hardware/
software, etc.

I am getting close to the realm of simply having to buy another
computer, perhaps a notebook, with Win 2000 or XP on it, simply for
Kodak version 3 of software. Hopefully a 3rd party solution will be
available.
End of rant,
Jim H.
Bottom line you want cameras and software with the latest technology computers and software need the upgrades. By the way that computer

you just bought last month is now a dinosaur and they dropped the price $500.00. Just an example of technology changes and the PC industry is the worst. There is no getting around it we can rant and rave but if you want to be on top of your game have the best stuff around you. Nothing worse then shooting for a client and they have better gear than you do.

Guy
 
. Right now I don't want to do it just
because Kodak has decided not to support a still viable OS-I know
of no other graphics software that I use anyway that has written
off Win 98SE also.
Bottom line you want cameras and software with the latest
technology computers and software need the upgrades. By the way
that computer
you just bought last month is now a dinosaur and they dropped the
price $500.00. Just an example of technology changes and the PC
industry is the worst. There is no getting around it we can rant
and rave but if you want to be on top of your game have the best
stuff around you. Nothing worse then shooting for a client and they
have better gear than you do.

Guy
Yes I know I have been in this game eight years, and before that with Canon switching from the FD mount to EOS many years ago instantly obsoleting 12 lenses. I have a long obsolete film scanner that cost $5000 in 1994 and now is worth about $250. I have a 1995 flatbed that cost about $1600 with transparancy adapter that now is worth about $40. I expected this to happen though.

I have to be selective in what gets upgraded every year since I have a lot of periperhals/ stuff. If I upgrade to a Kodak and buy lenses, CF, backup drive, etc, etc, I also have to budget in printer upgrades in July to the tune of about $1300. I just upgraded a flatbed for $500. The OS/CPU has to wait for 2004.

I don't work for a large company. It's just me. I can't put down $10000 every year.

Now please re-read the top paragraph in this post, quoted from my first post. I haven't done an exhaustive search so you can correct me if wrong, but I can find no other graphics software now that doesn't support Win98SE- except Kodak. I'm not the best expert on graphics topics, but it always seemed to me that Photoshop was a good yardstick to measure by- all plugins and app that don't work beside, with, or import to photoshop current version are just not doing it right. It's a splitting hairs point, but technically, Kodak isn't" fully" compatable with Photoshop 7, as PS7 supports Win98SE and Kodak doesn't.

Finally, I do apologise for the rant. I'm not after you Guy, or Jay for that matter, I just think that the issue needs to be visible. I don't know what percentage, but I suspect this affects a non-zero, signifigant number of potential buyers of the Kodak who will either delay or turn away from the camera. Both ways, sales will be lost IMHO.
Jim H.
 
As someone who has a ton of drivers and peripherals and who had very similar concerns about moving to W2K, I can tell you that drivers and installaton were not the problem I expected.

There are some things that you'll have to deal with due to network security features, but I've found the move to be worth the work.

I'd be upset about not having Kodak support Wn98 if I was still using the OS, but keep in mind that Win98 is no longer a fully supported product by Microsoft. You should expect Kodak to be the first of an increasing trend for your OS.

--
BJN
 
I'm sorry, I've gotten to this post 8 days after it's start. This is my first time on the Kodak SLR forum. It seems that the last time I went to the Kodak forum it was only "Kodak" and was point and shoots. Some of the other forums have been taken over by "Wanna Bees". I'm not going to try to step on any toes here, but let's set a few things straight. No one has really pointed out the real benefits of the Kodak software. Many of the things that are being presented are not it's strong points and don't seem to be presented by anyone with real working experience.

Now to answer some questions on the Kodak software. No one has really answered the real question of Kodak's superiority. Time is money! And many things you can't do over. Take this simple test with your system. Set up a set of objects to photograph. Within that set make sure you include an object that is white with texture. A roll of white paper towels works well. Now take a series of 5 shots. 2 stops over, 1 stop over, right on, 1 stop under, and 2 stops under. Bring them into your software program of choice, adjust the images, and crop to an 8x10 format.

1: How long did it take you to adjust the five images to match for color and density?

2: Did the software's raw conversion Plus/Minus feature give you detail in the paper towels or white textured area in all 5 shots?
3: Were you able to do all steps of adjustments and cropping within one program?

With the kodak software you could have done this all to the five images and exported them to tif files in probably 45 seconds or less. The longest time being the export to full sized tifs. To jpgs it would have taken under 30 seconds. To the people saying that breezebrowser and yarch can do the same thing.... no way. With a D60 raw image in either program it will not hold detail in white areas at even a stop let alone 2. If you take a file into Photoshop and adjust too much you start having to chase color at the same time you chase exposure.

When the Gretag salesman who sold me my Netprinter came in, he insisted that no could adjust an over exposed picture and get quality past about half a stop. I sat him down, shot the 5 shot test of him, adjust the files in a couple of seconds and output the files. He could not tell the difference between the shots. He became a Kodak believer. I'm not saying that the programs such as breezebrowser and Yarc may not be better for sales and such. They have many more features for such things. On the other hand no other system I have owned or tested can match up to the adjustment features as Kodak software. Here is how I shoot indoor sessions:

I shoot tethered to a computer with a 30 ft. firewire. The pictures show up on the screeen about 12 seconds after shot. The files are automatically downloaded to the computer in that time. When the subject (normally seniors) goes back for a clothes change, I sit down and tweak exposures on each shot and put in the proportional crop. This takes just a few seconds each shot. I then send a jpg of each shot I am using to a directory within their folder for proofs. After then last outfit I again adjust that outfit and and jpg it. If this is a child or a customer that is ordering their pictures immediately, then a sales person will show them into the sales room and present them their pictures with Foto Station (www.fotostation.com) Other programs that provide a slide show with the file name displayable on the screen would also work. From the camera room to the sales room presentation is only a couple minutes.

If we are proofing the images, I then switch to a program called SASheet. It can be downloaded from http://www.smalleranimals.com for $20. I direct the program at the folder of jpg files and tell it to start. It will take all of the images in the folder and lay them up on sheets to my layout specifications. Normally 4 up on an 8x10 sheet. With file names under each image. It then drops the sheets into a specified folder. In my case it is into a "Hot Folder" for my Net Printer. A Hot Folder is a folder that the printer draws files from to print. Any file dropped here is automatically printed. In most cases the previews are already in the printer before the person get's his outfits together, pays for the sitting and is out the front door.

Outdoors is more complicated. The Kodak software does not currently have the ability to do individual color adjustments. Only click balancing. The Kodak "Capture Studio" software can do color and curve adjustments but it is only on the Mac platform and comes free only with the Pro-backs. It seems to work only on one image at a time. The Nikon software from the way it is described here may have more features in this case. I installed the Demo version of Nikon Capture III software when the camera was demoed at my studio. I had raw files to work with, but gave up out of frustration. Either I was entering the program incorrectly or something, but I found no menus to allow for adjustments. I have worked on computers to great extent since the early 80s. I wrote studio management software that was sold nation wide and some foreign countries. A well written program should allow a person to operate it's basic features without ever touching an instruction manual.

I realize that this is an extremely long posting, but hopefully it will have helped some of you to see a working studio work flow. Once again Time is Money. If you can adjust, correct, and crop your images in a minimal amount of time then it is a money saver. Digital does not have to take a lot of time if your software and work flow work together.

Wes Siebe
 

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