DOF question...

manikam

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I've been reading about DOF and the more detailed it gets the more confusing it becomes. In particular I'm having some confusion regarding why DOF calculators (ex: http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html ), ask you to specify the focal length marked on the lens as input rather than the actual focal length at which you are shooting. For instance in an 18-200 lense, If I'm shooting at 100mm, shouldn't I be supplying 100mm as input rather than 200mm?
Or is it that DOF depends on just on the max focal length of lense?

I've two lenses, one 18-200mm f5.6 and another 50mm f1.8. I set out trying to determine

which of the two would have lesser DOF when the subject I'm focusing on has about the same size in the final picture of both. IOW, upclose with the 50mm f1.8 or more distant from the subject but at 200mm zoom at f5.6.

Does anyone have a basic rule of thumb that will make figuring these things out intutive & simple for a beginner?

Thanks.
 
I've been reading about DOF and the more detailed it gets the more confusing it becomes. In particular I'm having some confusion regarding why DOF calculators (ex: http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html ), ask you to specify the focal length marked on the lens as input rather than the actual focal length at which you are shooting. For instance in an 18-200 lense, If I'm shooting at 100mm, shouldn't I be supplying 100mm as input rather than 200mm?
Yes - you should be using the focal length you are actually shooting at.
Or is it that DOF depends on just on the max focal length of lense?
No, see above
I've two lenses, one 18-200mm f5.6 and another 50mm f1.8. I set out trying to determine which of the two would have lesser DOF when the subject I'm focusing on has about the same size in the final picture of both. IOW, upclose with the 50mm f1.8 or more distant from the subject but at 200mm zoom at f5.6.
The effects approximately cancel out as long as you leave aperture constant. If you take a pic of someone using your 50mm lens at f/8 and then switch to a 200mm lens at f/8 you will have to stand four times further back to get the person the same size in the picture. The increased d-o-f from standing further back, and the decreased d-o-f from using a longer focal length, approximately cancel out - try it on the calculator.
Does anyone have a basic rule of thumb that will make figuring these things out intutive & simple for a beginner?
Don't worry too much about the numbers - they are pretty arbitrary anyway and based on a lot of assumptions about how you look at the picture. Treat them as ball-park estimates and no more. The main thing is

(i) if you want to get a lot in focus - like in a landscape when you want the flowers in the foreground and the hills in the background to be in focus - use a narrow aperture (like f/11) and a wide angle lens.

(ii) if you want to concentrate on a subject and throw the background out of focus, use a longer lens and a wide aperture.

That's pretty much it. Nobody carries d-o-f tables around in their heads. The beaury of a digital camera is that you can review the shot you just took, magnify it on screen, and see if you got the result you want.

BTWhave a look at this post...
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1002&message=35381998

The post shows exactly what happens when you use a longer focal length lens and stand further back to compensate (as per your original question). The depth of field hasn't changed but you get much less distracting background in the shot and the sense of concentrating on the subject is much better.

Best wishes

--
Mike
 
Thanks for the reply!
Does anyone have a basic rule of thumb that will make figuring these things out intutive & simple for a beginner?
Don't worry too much about the numbers - they are pretty arbitrary anyway and based on a lot of assumptions about how you look at the picture. Treat them as ball-park estimates and no more.
Yes. The reason I asked was also to just get a rough estimate. I thought the inherent

fact that I couldn't come up with a guesstimate of which lense would have more dof

kind of indicated poor understanding of the concept. Hence asked for thumb rules.
The effects approximately cancel out as long as you leave aperture constant. If you take a pic of someone using your 50mm lens at f/8 and then switch to a 200mm lens at f/8 you will have to stand four times further back to get the person the same size in the picture. The increased d-o-f from standing further back, and the decreased d-o-f from using a longer focal length, approximately cancel out - try it on the calculator.
Hmmm..... I thought that dof was inversely proportional to the square of the focal length vs just directly proportional to distance. The reason I asked the question
was also to get an understanding of these factors. I know the general principal

that opening up the apreture leads to a more shallow dof all others being a constant.

Similarly that at the telephoto end its more shallow dof all others being a constant et all. My confusion was more from failing understand the interactions between these components when one has choice of say distance and apreture.

Perhaps experimentation and experience will only lead to us gaining insight into these.

Thanks again for your reply. I'll go through the other link you sent.

Regards,
Manikam
 
Hmmm..... I thought that dof was inversely proportional to the square of the focal length vs just directly proportional to distance.
The equations are here:
http://www.dofmaster.com/equations.html

There is a (focal length) squared component (in the calculation of the hyperfocal distance) but also first-order terms in f. So d-o-f is not a simple linear or quadratic dependence on focal length, it will depend on circumstances.

Under 'normal' circumstances you do end up with the approximation that d-o-f depends basically on perspective. Using the example in my previous post, use 50mm at f/8 and a subject distance of 10 feet; On a standard crop-sensor camera you get d-o-f limits from 8.46 to 12.2. feet, i.e. 1.5 feet in front to 2.2 feet behind the subject

Now use a 100mm lens at 20 feet: d-o-f is from 1.7 feet in front of the subject to 2 feet behind

200mm at 40 feet: d-o-f is from 1.7 feet in front to 1.9 feet behind the subject.

These aren't exactly the same but to a first approximation the d-o-f stays the same for a given framing of the subject, i.e. when it fills the same amount of the frame. This does break down under very extreme combinations of focal length, aperture and distance but it seems to hold up pretty well under most real-world shooting circumstances.
Perhaps experimentation and experience will only lead to us gaining insight into these.
Absolutely!

Best wishes
--
Mike
 
-Does anyone have a basic rule of thumb that will make figuring these things out intutive & simple for a beginner?-

Think of the depth of field as a percentage of the width of field; call it DOF%.

For example, DOF% = 50% means if the field is 10 ft wide, its depth is 5 ft, etc..

The equation predicting behavior is:

DOF% = constant * F-Stop * Field_Width

This means (ie. the RULES ARE):

if you double the F-Number, you double the depth%, etc...

if you step back (or zoom out) to double the width, you double the depth%, etc...

Dave

These rules are valid for normal photography when Depth of Field is relatively small..
 
Forget The Calculator and Look at Cause and Effect.

Work to understand the cause and effects associated with DOF, the associated variables and manipulating them. The three variables that come into play are:
  • Aperture
  • Focal Length
  • Distance to subject
For Example:

Generally speaking, to create a Shallower Depth of Field you do the following:
  • Use your longest Focal Length, like 200 mm.
  • Get as close as you can to the subject and still be able to focus.
  • Use a wide open aperture, like f/2.8.
Generally speaking, to create a Deeper Depth of Field you do the following:
  • Use your shortest Focal Length, like 24 mm.
  • Get far from your subject.
  • Use a narrow aperture, like f/18.
Here’s an example for what's meant by Depth of Field. It’s my own, unpatented test…one that you will never, ever read about in any of the medical or scientific journals.

Here’s the setup.
  • 30D with 70-200L, tripod mounted, positioned 5 feet away from the DVD box.
  • The Swiss miss box was positioned directly behind the DVD box, which is 1 inch deep.
  • Used the left-point focus, on the DVD box for all the shots.
  • First shot at f/2.8
  • Second shot at f/4
  • Third shot at f/9
  • Fourth shot at f/13


Notice how on the f/2.8 shot the Swiss miss box is Out Of Focus, blurry.

Notice how on the f/13 shot the Swiss miss box is pretty much in focus.

  • By using a wide open aperture like f/2.8, you can blur the shot immediately behind the focus point.
  • By using a narrow aperture like f/13, you can create a deeper depth of field, allowing more of the shot to be in focus, creating a much deeper focal plane.
Notice I used you. That’s because you are in control of the camera and it’s settings, not some DOF Calculator. :)

The Depth of Field is something that you would set creatively.
  • Depth of Field can be shallow.
  • Depth of Field can be deep.
In the end you can select how you want your image to look, what aspects you want to be in focus or out of focus. There is no magic set parameters… just your imagination with regards to how you see the photo.

Another example:

With these two photos, if you had to choose, which one do you prefer most?
Because remember that you can alter the three variables:
  • Aperture,
  • Focal Distance, and
  • Focal Length
to whatever you desire. This will allow you to blur backgrounds/foregrounds or other certain aspects within an image. Forget about using the DOF calculator. Understand cause and effects.

Aperture f/14, Focal Length 100 mm, Focusing Distance about 9"



Aperture f/2.8, Focal Length 100 mm, Focusing Distance about 9"



Notice how on the f/2.8 shot the DOF is very shallow.

Notice how on the f/14 shot the DOF is deeper.


Again:
  • By using a wide open aperture like f/2.8, you can blur the shot immediately behind the focus point.
  • By using a narrow aperture like f/14, you can create a deeper depth of field, allowing more of the shot to be in focus, creating a much deeper focal plane.
Don't let that damn calculator and all the associated theoretical mumbo-jumbo math get you all twisted around an axle.

Bottom line...find a flower of your own, go out and set your camera on a tripod and take a bunch of shots and manipulate the three variables, and look at cause and effect.

Once you understand the relationships, you won't need no stink'n calculator.

Best regards, Mike

--
B.R.A.S.S. (Breathe, Relax, Aim, Sight, Squeeze)

 

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