14 bit raw

Merlinator

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When I tried out 14 bit raw it really slowed the camera down so much I think it would only be useful for one shot. Is there that much difference between 14 and 12 bit? If so I would use 14 bit in the situations that would lend itself to it's use.

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As I understand it 14-bit has twice as much information as 12-bit. So, it will take longer to process and store. Normally the difference is meaningless. If I'm shooting sports or something where I need the maximum FPS, it does make a difference. I use 12bit for those instances. Otherwise, I use 14-bit with lossless compression and it never feels slow to me.

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-Dan Rode
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First is during the act of taking the image. Yes, it slows down the camera but for most cases this is not an issue.

Second is during PP. I use NX2 and in my opinion it slows down NX2 a lot. It is really painful to process 14-bit images.
 
Same here. For sports and fast shooting situations, I always use 12 bit. For just about everything else, I use 14 bit. Actually, every bit gives twice as much information. So, a 14 bit file technically has 4 times as much information (assuming the camera can actually produce 14 bits of resolution). The files are larger and the camera is certainly slower. However, I see no penalty that is significant enough to not use 14 bit when I want to get the most from my files. Besides, with advances in processing technology, I may be able to get even more out of those images one day.
 
If you read bythom.com's review of any of the Nikon cameras offering 14 bit RAW he says that most people won't see any difference, and even if you can the differrence is very small. Add in the drawbacks of slower camera operation, bigger files and slower conversions and I wouldn't bother.

Caveat : I've not tried myself but i'm fairly sure I won't be one of those able to tell any difference , YMMV :-)

Nick
 
Most of the time I don't bother. If I shoot something static, on a tripod, and wish to extract maximum IQ - then sure, I'll switch 14-bit on. Other than that, I don't see much need for it. I use Lightroom and occasionally ViewNX and haven't seen any differences yet - not that I've looked very hard for them.

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Pavel
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If you Google around a bit, and read the actual difference between 12 and 14 bit you'll find that there's an appropriate use scenario for each. 14 bit simply carries a TON more information than 12 bit.

Personally I shoot 14 bit for images where I might need to get the absolute maximum from the color and tonal range, for instance, when I'm shooting with the intention of processing the images for HDR.

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True but Thom goes on to say that he predominantly uses 14-bit. His reason, why throw away data? I may or may not see a difference today between 12 and 14-bit but tomorrow's RAW renderers are going to be better than today's. The data may be useful in the future.

Since I don't even notice any speed difference (except sports), I can't find any reason not to use 14-bit.
If you read bythom.com's review of any of the Nikon cameras offering 14 bit RAW he says that most people won't see any difference, and even if you can the differrence is very small. Add in the drawbacks of slower camera operation, bigger files and slower conversions and I wouldn't bother.

Caveat : I've not tried myself but i'm fairly sure I won't be one of those able to tell any difference , YMMV :-)

Nick
--
-Dan Rode
http://rodephoto.com
 
the more information data can be probably visible in some particular light and color transition situation.

it's even a matter of monitors we use, just few can display more that 8 bit per channel...

As Tom says, if I have data why throw them away?

I just have a D90, but if I should choose, where no high speed continuous shooting is needed, I would go for 14 bit.
 
Actually, every bit gives twice as much information. So, a 14 bit file technically has 4 times as much information (assuming the camera can actually produce 14 bits of resolution).
Actually, information is measured in bits, so a 14-bit file gives about 16% more information than a 12-bit file. The 14-bit file resolves 4 times the number of levels, but that's not the same thing as "information," according to the technical definition of the term.

Ray
 
tundracamper: you are 100% correct in that the filesize is 4 x bigger and MAY contain more resolution .

Ray what are you smoking?
Actually, every bit gives twice as much information. So, a 14 bit file technically has 4 times as much information (assuming the camera can actually produce 14 bits of resolution).
Actually, information is measured in bits, so a 14-bit file gives about 16% more information than a 12-bit file. The 14-bit file resolves 4 times the number of levels, but that's not the same thing as "information," according to the technical definition of the term.

Ray
 
Actually, every bit gives twice as much information. So, a 14 bit file technically has 4 times as much information (assuming the camera can actually produce 14 bits of resolution).
Actually, information is measured in bits, so a 14-bit file gives about 16% more information than a 12-bit file. The 14-bit file resolves 4 times the number of levels, but that's not the same thing as "information," according to the technical definition of the term.
I don't know how you end up in 16%. 12 bits is 12 bits of data 14 bits is 14 bits of data in binary value. That's FOUR times as much as 12 bits. Perhaps you look at the information a different way than I do, but for me every binary bit change is different data and is information.
 
Sorry, but the amount of "information" in a digital file is directly measured in how many bits it contains. This has been the official technical definition of information since Claude Shannon (of Bell Labs) published his paper "A Mathematical Theory of Communication" in 1948. Since a 14-bit file contains only 16% more bits than a 12-bit file, it contains at most 16% more information (well, OK, 16.6666...%). The additional information may be less (or none), depending on the efficiency of the coding.

You can choose to make up your own theory of information and your own definitions if you wish, but that's what's taught in engineering courses.

Ray
 
Sorry, but the amount of "information" in a digital file is directly measured in how many bits it contains. This has been the official technical definition of information since Claude Shannon (of Bell Labs) published his paper "A Mathematical Theory of Communication" in 1948. Since a 14-bit file contains only 16% more bits than a 12-bit file, it contains at most 16% more information (well, OK, 16.6666...%). The additional information may be less (or none), depending on the efficiency of the coding.

You can choose to make up your own theory of information and your own definitions if you wish, but that's what's taught in engineering courses.
"My" theory is that 1 bit contains two values. 1 and 0. That's the way I learned and that's the "theory" paying for my daily bread since about 35 years, when I started to work with computers. I don't know what Shannon meant by that but perhaps that the actual improvement would only be 16% between 12 and 14 bit. I am pretty sure that he perfectly understood that one single bit has two values, thus it represents two pieces of information, two bits double the data, representing four different values. Shannon knew that very well since he is one of the computing pioneers and he demonstrated as a 21 year old student at MIT that an electrical application of Boolean algebra could construct and resolve any logical, numerical relationship. In other words, he knew very well the power of each bit.

Perhaps your definition of information isn't the same as mine, for me in computing "information" is equal data value. 14 bits can have a total of 16384 values while 12 bits can have 4096 only, which is one fourth of 14 bits. However, I am pretty sure that the actual improvement we can see is only about 16% and not four times, but that depends on other things, never the less the data is indeed four times, and a 14 bits file is 4 times as large as a 12 bits file since it contains 4 times more uncompressed data.
 
There's some good and some bad information in this thread... do an internet search for 12 bit versus 14 bit and you'll find several really good articles explaining the difference in an accurate, scientific manner.

The real world result, right now, today... is better shadow detail, as best as I've been able to discover. Which is a pretty strong argument for shooting in 14 bit.

--
I am an unprofessional photographer.

Flickr > http://www.flickr.com/photos/scphotog
Skateboard > http://www.thegrindsyndicate.com

lose [looz] ,lost, los·ing. 1. to come to be without(something in one's possession or care), through accident, theft, etc., so that there is little or no prospect of recovery.

loose lus [loos] adjective, loos·er, loos·est, adverb, verb loosed, loos·ing. –adjective 1. free or released from fastening or attachment: a loose end.
 
There's some good and some bad information in this thread... do an internet search for 12 bit versus 14 bit and you'll find several really good articles explaining the difference in an accurate, scientific manner.

The real world result, right now, today... is better shadow detail, as best as I've been able to discover. Which is a pretty strong argument for shooting in 14 bit.
You don't have to convince me, I am convinced already... ;) The one who does not sound convinced is Ray and I assume your answer was for him, not for me.
 
My 2 cents: 14 bit may or may give you some visible improvement, but it's not going to be very much. (A lot of people here did a lot of testing when the D300 came out, and most couldn't see any difference at all. Others saw some when doing a lot of manipulation, and they saw it in the shadow areas).

However, at least on a D300, there are some very easily seen drawbacks, aside from the larger file size. Not only is the maximum frame per second reduced to 2.5, but there is also an annoying increase in shutter lag. If you are like me and are used to your camera, you can frequently hit the shutter precisely enough to get a shot at the instant you need. With 14-bit selected, I start missing shots like the following:



 
Sorry, but the amount of "information" in a digital file is directly measured in how many bits it contains. This has been the official technical definition of information since Claude Shannon (of Bell Labs) published his paper "A Mathematical Theory of Communication" in 1948. Since a 14-bit file contains only 16% more bits than a 12-bit file, it contains at most 16% more information (well, OK, 16.6666...%). The additional information may be less (or none), depending on the efficiency of the coding.

You can choose to make up your own theory of information and your own definitions if you wish, but that's what's taught in engineering courses.
"My" theory is that 1 bit contains two values. 1 and 0. That's the way I learned and that's the "theory" paying for my daily bread since about 35 years, when I started to work with computers. I don't know what Shannon meant by that but perhaps that the actual improvement would only be 16% between 12 and 14 bit. I am pretty sure that he perfectly understood that one single bit has two values, thus it represents two pieces of information, two bits double the data, representing four different values. Shannon knew that very well since he is one of the computing pioneers and he demonstrated as a 21 year old student at MIT that an electrical application of Boolean algebra could construct and resolve any logical, numerical relationship. In other words, he knew very well the power of each bit.
Shannon understood Boolean algebra and binary arithmetic perfectly well, as do I. But when he constructed his formalization of Information Theory, he decided he didn't wish to say that a symbol which could take on, say, 4 values contained twice the information of one that could take on two values. So he defined "information" as being related to the logarithm of the number of potential values, not the linear arithmetic count of potential values. In the case of binary arithmetic, this logarithm is simply the number of bits. Since I spent about 10 years in 3 different schools getting various engineering degrees and 32 years as a working engineer, manager, and consultant (including 14 years at Bell Labs) in digital communications, I will claim I probably understand a little of this stuff.

If you think about it for a minute or two, I think you'd have to admit that it's not desirable to say that a 14-bit image file contains 4 times the information of a 12-bit file. After all, as others have pointed out here, most people see no visible difference between 12- and 14-bit images. Surely if there were 4 times as much information there, it would be obvious to anyone who looked at the image, wouldn't it? So intuitively, as well as technically, it's more sensible to say that the 14-bit file contains 16% more information (at most), rather than 4 times.
Perhaps your definition of information isn't the same as mine, for me in computing "information" is equal data value. 14 bits can have a total of 16384 values while 12 bits can have 4096 only, which is one fourth of 14 bits. However, I am pretty sure that the actual improvement we can see is only about 16% and not four times, but that depends on other things, never the less the data is indeed four times, and a 14 bits file is 4 times as large as a 12 bits file since it contains 4 times more uncompressed data.
It's not my definition, it's Shannon's. Your intuition of what you call "actual improvement" is exactly the reason Shannon defined "information" as he did, i. e., making the measure of information logarithmic. However, a 14-bit file is NOT 4 times as large as a 12-bit file. In the case of uncompressed D300 NEF files, the 14-bit file size is about 30% larger (25.3 MB vs. 19.4 MB), which is of course larger than 16.7%, mostly because the efficiency of packing the 14-bit words into bytes is less.

I don't have any axe to grind here, so I won't continue to argue the point. It just seems to me that since this is a technical forum, we'd be better served if we try to stay with language which is consistent with that of the engineers who design these systems we're talking about. You're free to think of it as you like, and I'm free to disagree, which I already have.

Peace,

Ray Ritchie
 
In all honesty, 14 bit will only be truly useful if you doing studio work, or imaging that would require that extra bit of reach into DR.

I started out in 14 bit, figuring it would be really top shelf, and then went to 12 bit after I found out for myself that the benefits of 14 bit imagery with a D300 were not that significant in terms of "normal" shooting (people, events, etc.) and the extra data load, slow shutter, and frame rate were big minuses in a number of situations.

I use 14 bit now when I am doing product shots, and client work that require complete control over the lighting and staging. There it makes sense and the results, while they may be subtle, are worth the extra effort, since some of these images can take up to an hour to prepare.

The biggest change and advantage is really going from JPEG to 12 bit RAW. The amount of latitude for post processing is enormous.
 

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