DSLR preachers put to bed? (E-PL1 review)

Me I work with a rangefinder, a DSLR, a film SLR and digital compact. At some point I may well add a m4/3 camera in place of the digital compact. Each camera has its independent use.

What I know is that the m4/3 camera would not replace the dSLR because of the functional and handling limitations.
And the converse is also true - there are plenty of shots that are easy with a mFT camera that you just can't do on a DSLR - or could do with difficulty.

They actually don't have as many limitations as some people will have you believe. Before commenting on the functionality and limitations, maybe its worth actually trying one out for a period and working out whether the limitations are with the camera or with the user.

Coming from a DSLR there is a period of adjustment, but quite quickly you start to see new options open up that just weren't possible before.
Horse for courses. Why the endless there must be only one solution debates. Its a bit insecure is it not?
--
Veo el mundo: http://www.veoelmundo.com my blog about travel photography
 
No Darrel, I'm afraid that is not it at all. His point is that since he is content with his little, rinky-dink thing, then everybody else should be too.
Taking notes, Sam?
It is inconceivable (to him) that any contrary argument of any value whatsoever can exist... and he will shout that out loud and proud from the tree-tops at sunrise and sunset every single day until he, or the forum, is dead.
Or, perhaps, it's the DSLR people, who don't own or use an M43, doing the 'shouting' and finding it so perplexing that anyone wouldn't want their superior, wonderful, perfect APS or FF cameras.
No. It just seems to be you Bill.

I have a GF1.
--
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If you want function to be competent in all areas, you have to get a DSLR, at least for now.
A DSLR isn't competent in all areas. It's worse for MF,
No it is not, my DSLR has the option to focus exactly like a m4/3 camera does
Yes, there is live view. But the LCD on the back is much smaller to the eye than an EVF (unless you use a loupe), is less than 1400k dots, not dioptre corrected, and it's not shielded from strong light.
it's worse for reviewing shots, especially in bright light,
Evidence please. I would say not having tried some m4/3 cameras.
Well, isn't it pretty obvious that the EVF is shielded from light?

Also, having to remove the camera from the face to review a shot is a pain in the behind.
it's worse for AF accuracy,
again wrong, there are many aspects of AF performance. As many DSLRs have the option of video based focusing as well you get all option, even the inferior video focusing system used in m4/3 systems.
Live view CD-AF on DSLRs comes at the expense of AF speed, hence the expression "tripod mode".
and it's worse in some video aspects than the best µ43 bodies.
very weak. Care to try video on any of the recent Canon DSLR?
AF is noisy and slow, you can't use the EVF to frame, and Canon don't even have an articulating back screen. I also think the GH1 is capable of less jelly effect than the Canon DSLRs.
Sorry you have a camera, enjoy it for what it is and try not to ignore it has plus and minus points.
That is hilarious! You are assuming I'm using an EVIL camera (I'm using a DSLR) just because I have the ability to see both plus and minus points - you and the person I replied to are the ones in denial that an EVIL could be more competent in some areas .

(And I could list many more.)
the flexibility of the DSLR is hard to ignore.
Different tools are better for different tasks. Both plus and minus points, you know? :)

--
Just my two öre,
Erik from Sweden
 
Coming from a DSLR there is a period of adjustment, but quite quickly you start to see new options open up that just weren't possible before.
I've thought that to be about compensating for the difference, in the attempt to obtain equally respectable presentations. Shaking up one's usual practices, and working through the potential obstacles, can only improve one's overall technique and objectives (if interested enough to put some time into it).

--
...Bob, NYC

'Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't.' - Little Big Man

http://www.bobtullis.com
 
I mentioned that Imay buy a m4/3 camera, now ponder my comments.
I tried an EPL-1, I wanted to like it, but it had problems.

1 With zoom lens it is too large to be a pocket camera.
2 The power up time is very slow
3 It has ponderous AF like my compact
4 It is better sized with the 17mm prime but it is an extra cost
5 The EVF is a fragile extra plug in device and damages portability
6 Did we mention the shot write times

So for discrete fast use the rangefinder had it out-boxed (its a 1955 camera)
For compact carry anywhere the compact had it licked.
For the rest the DSLR was more responsive and handled better.

remember in this, I wanted to like the EPL. The m4/3 camera that impresses me most is the G1, but to be honest it is just a slightly smaller DSLR so fails the portability test.

I leave the dSLR at home at times and take the other cameras for discretion or size.

Sadly the EPL-1 was neither fish nor foul. So to get me on the m4/3 side, fit an integral EVF, keep the body and lens the size of a G11 or smaller and get the price under £300. Oh and you could sacrifice on screen size if need be. Also turn the JPEG engine off to speed it up.
 
I mentioned that Imay buy a m4/3 camera, now ponder my comments.
I tried an EPL-1, I wanted to like it, but it had problems.

1 With zoom lens it is too large to be a pocket camera.
2 The power up time is very slow
3 It has ponderous AF like my compact
4 It is better sized with the 17mm prime but it is an extra cost
5 The EVF is a fragile extra plug in device and damages portability
6 Did we mention the shot write times

So for discrete fast use the rangefinder had it out-boxed (its a 1955 camera)
For compact carry anywhere the compact had it licked.
For the rest the DSLR was more responsive and handled better.

remember in this, I wanted to like the EPL. The m4/3 camera that impresses me most is the G1, but to be honest it is just a slightly smaller DSLR so fails the portability test.

I leave the dSLR at home at times and take the other cameras for discretion or size.

Sadly the EPL-1 was neither fish nor foul. So to get me on the m4/3 side, fit an integral EVF, keep the body and lens the size of a G11 or smaller and get the price under £300. Oh and you could sacrifice on screen size if need be. Also turn the JPEG engine off to speed it up.
Yes, these are all valid (not just for you, but in general). Funny thing is, if one chooses to embrace the format, satisfaction is often had. For all the reasons you mentioned I at first ignored µ4/3. But when I decided the challenge of using a less than optimal format can have its own reward, it became very interesting. That was easy once I decided every keeper didn't have to have potential for a wall sized hanging. But, each to their own.

--
...Bob, NYC

'Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't.' - Little Big Man

http://www.bobtullis.com
 
(i.e. someone starting a thread to talk about how they've discovered m43 isn't good enough and one of the reasons is that the lens lineup isn't as broad as it is for DSLRs).
Right. It's not like that isn't a known issue or that we haven't discussed it here - or that it doesn't deserve 'air time. But the format is new and DSLR advocates bringing it up in a 'M43 fails' type fashion is getting really, really old.
Honestly, I swore I wasn't going to invest in NEX because as an Alpha user, I see Sony paying less & less attention to the enthusiast and treating customers more & more as cash cows.
That's one thing I really like about M43 - it's a format for enthusiasts of one stripe or another (existing DSLR users, compact enthusiasts looking to move beyond that format, etc.).

One thing I'll agree with the DSLR/APS-C camp is that the M43 sensor may not have a really long life, at least compared to APS-C. I think eventually all mirrorless semi-compacts will have bigger sensors, whether it's APS or something else. How quickly that happens is subject to some debate, although the advent of the NX10 and NEX indicate we may be seeing really cool retro rangefinder-type models from Canon, Nikon and perhaps Panasonic and Olympus in the near future. That's be pretty cool, I think.
Anyway, I think I hear where you're coming from ... but your EPL1 versus D3000 comparison is at odds with your statement that m43 wasn't meant to compete with APS-C DSLRs
I really am not all about E-PL1 vs. D3000, I'm only citing DPR's review because it makes a rather firm case for M43 vs. APC-C not always being a foregone win for the latter (unlike many others have said).

The only basis on which I think they compare is price and very general IQ. I don't really like using my gf's D3000 because it lacks LV, its menu system is unintuitive (even compared to the E-PL1) and the single control wheel is kind of awkward for me, coming from my D100 which felt like it had better and faster control.
Better is better, but good enough is good enough.
Heh, that's rather poetic.
 
I shoot with all those bodies, but I think the Pen is amazing. Unless I'm working there's no way I want to lug around a big body like a D3x, even the D700 is a pain. But don't think all I'd use the pen for is personal pleasure. Now I wouldn't go shoot sports (which I don't anyway), but I'd have no reservations using it on a portrait session. I think the days of entry level DSLR's are numbered. Why would you want some big cheap plastic body with an even cheaper kit lens lol! Oh right, wannabes what want the pro look will keep buying them. That's too bad, these new cameras offer a lot of IQ at a reasonable price. Now if only Hasselblad would come out with a mirrorless 60MP system. Could be easier to tote around than the D3x! Well, that's probably not going to happen for a long time. It would be nice to see Nikon and Canon join the 43 camp instead of coming out with an apc or even worse a proprietary format. Think of all the new lenses!

Cheers

--
http://www.paphotographics.com
 
It's amazing how defensive some people are.
Right. DSLR preachers coming in here feeling this inexplicable need to tear down M43 by hook or by crook would be amusing if it wasn't quite irritating and polluting the forum with misinformation and childish whining.

Oh, was that not what you meant? Because I don't see 'defensive' M43 people here, just some folks who are tired of DSLR fanboy trolling.
The new, smaller, interchangeable lens cameras are very interesting, and I'm sure many dSLR owners will be looking at them as carry everywhere cameras or full time replacements. I haven't seen anyone really knock them, hard to say where you are coming from.
Well, that'd be because you haven't seen them 'knock them' - but they have been. There's a few in this very thread. Including you, later in this very same comment:
But still crowing over the image quality, as if it were the sole judge of a camera's capabilities, is somewhat silly.
When a camera is compact enough to be just about pocketable with a prime lens and comes in at the same or less than most DSLR models pricewise, then yeah, IQ is one of the primary traits to focus on. Nobody here who owns an M43 is saying it's the "SOLE JUDGE" of any camera's capabilities. Another strawman (lots of those in this thread, lemme tell ya).
Now, 6 years later, we are in the same boat. AF is still slow, FPS is still slow, start up is still slow.
Not sure what camera you're talking about, but E-PL1 AF is no longer slow and it shoots 3 FPS. Maybe not as fast as some DSLRs but certainly ballpark. The much-vaunted (here, by DSLR fanboys) T2i/550D does 3.7 FPS. Not exactly a world of difference.

Startup time is not something I really find a big issue since I have to unlock and de-cap my kit lens anyway, but at about 1.5sec I think it's fine (I think this may have been addressed with the latest FW, because some reviews cite 2.2sec which I can clearly beat).
For the life of me, I can't figure out why they can make a dSLR start up in a fraction of a second, but any non-dSLR style camera seems dog slow.
I don't think it's 'dog slow' to begin with.
Why don't they take what is basically a nice camera, and put some real HP inside it, how much extra could that cost? I mean, you're talking about $600 for a body, and it doesn't need a penta prism or mirror system.
You're aware of the fact that these cameras are much smaller than DSLR, right? And lighter? Tech getting smaller and lighter does take a toll, even counting mirror.
"The start-up time from turning the E-PL1 on to being ready to take a photo is pretty impressive at around 1.5 seconds (dSLR = 0.1 seconds.) Unfortunately the Contrast Auto-Focusing system isn't going to win any speed awards, taking approximately 0.5 second to lock onto the subject (dSLR = 0.0 to 0.2 seconds).
Speed awards being for DSLR models. It's not a DSLR. Again, size, weight, lens size, IBIS, class of camera - all different.
"This in itself isn't terrible but there are further problems if you combine continuous AF with continuous shooting - you either get lots of mis-focused images or, if you set the camera to wait until it's in focus, you don't get many images at all."
I've played with a couple of DSLRs and depending on lighting, matrix, AE and so forth you can get mis-focused AF 'lock' on those, too (albeit more quickly, getting more shots and more potential keepers, I'll admit).
"It takes about 2 seconds to store a JPEG image, allowing you to keep shooting as they are being recorded onto the memory card - there is a brief LCD blackout between each image (dSLR = no black out, 0.2 seconds to save an image). Storing a single RAW image takes around 4 seconds (dSLR the same 0.2 seconds.) "
DSLRs with Live View do have blackout. I don't find the file save times to be grossly out of bounds, and since it doesn't keep me from taking shots, who cares?
"Overall the E-PL1 is below par in terms of operational speed compared to a DSLR, especially hampered by its auto-focusing speed, but faster than most compacts."
You know how this would matter? If the E-PL1 was a DSLR with the same dimensions, weight, price, etc. as a 550D or similar. It doesn't.

Do you take this argument to the compact P&S forums, too? Why not? Same apples to oranges. Just because this particular orange tree is a bit closer to the apple orchard still doesn't make it an apple.
 
It would be nice to see Nikon and Canon join the 43 camp instead of coming out with an apc or even worse a proprietary format. Think of all the new lenses!
Agreed, although I haven't been bowled over by Nikon's compacts thus far, so who knows? Panasonic and Olympus have been working pretty hard in the 4/3 arena.

Still, I'd rather see more true M43 systems out there from new manufacturers. There was a rumor piece posted last month about the companies that have said they won't be getting into it, but I can't find it right now. :/
 
Or, perhaps, it's the DSLR people, who don't own or use an M43, doing the 'shouting' and finding it so perplexing that anyone wouldn't want their superior, wonderful, perfect APS or FF cameras.
No. It just seems to be you Bill.

I have a GF1.
OK, Andy. It's all in my head.

Don't read any other posts in this thread, or anything like that. It might jerk your head out of the sand.
 
Thanks Erik, yes, that's my point.

It's unfortunate that the strawman of me (or other M43 owners) being 'closed minded' or 'defensive' has come up. I've owned DSLR as I'm sure many others have, and likely will again. There's nothing about DSLR that I am criticizing or saying is inferior, lacking, etc.

The same cannot be said for the other camp. For a select number of DSLR folks, it seems M43's very existence drives them nuts and they post repeatedly about how it's too slow, too expensive, inferior high ISO, smaller lens selection, ad nauseum. Not content to portray the limitations of the format in context or factually, we get exaggeration and disconnected comparisons overlooking the whole package(s).

So I ask: Who are the insecure one(s)? How many M43 people are in the DSLR forum right now, preaching the merits of M43 and limitations of DSLR?
 
1 With zoom lens it is too large to be a pocket camera.
Maybe you should be looking at the TZ line? But you're going to be sacrificing IQ, high ISO and removable lenses. Everything is a give and take.
2 The power up time is very slow
I get 1.5-ish seconds. If you're using the kit lens, you have to unlock it anyway, which is what I do while the camera kicks on. I don't find this worse than compacts I've owned, at least not noticeably so.
3 It has ponderous AF like my compact
It's not DSLR AF performance, but the E-PL1 AF speed is somewhat dependent on the situation, too.
4 It is better sized with the 17mm prime but it is an extra cost
This is true of any camera. Lenses cost money.
5 The EVF is a fragile extra plug in device and damages portability
This kind of thing has been true since the rangefinder days. Extra stuff added to the camera = greater bulk. I wouldn't say the EVF is especially fragile, though.
6 Did we mention the shot write times
See, here you don't sound like someone honestly looking for solutions but rather someone enjoying the 'hunt' of finding fault and poking holes. What do shot write times matter if you can continue shooting?
So for discrete fast use the rangefinder had it out-boxed (its a 1955 camera)
You're seriously comparing an old film camera? Isn't that going to be true of DSLRs, too? This is a comparison not even worth exploring - the differences between an old rangefinder and an M43 (or any other modern digital) are too myriad to enumerate or detail.
For compact carry anywhere the compact had it licked.
There are various levels of compacts, too. My ZS3 wasn't exactly a jeans pocket wonder, either. It's certainly more pocketable and less obtrusive than a DSLR.
For the rest the DSLR was more responsive and handled better.
Again - it's not a DSLR or a compact. That it's 'middle of the road' (with IQ and other performance closer to DSLR than compact) is not an indictment given that's exactly what the platform is for.
remember in this, I wanted to like the EPL. The m4/3 camera that impresses me most is the G1, but to be honest it is just a slightly smaller DSLR so fails the portability test.
So you want full DSLR speed and IQ with a compact like an S90 or smaller and the flexibility of an old rangefinder but no add-ons outside (like an old rangefinder).

Yeah. Good luck w/ that. Maybe 2025?
Sadly the EPL-1 was neither fish nor foul.
A mid to low DSLR isn't a full blown $3000 FF. No compact is as compact as the smallest, lightest model(s). So what? Price, size, performance. You don't get '10' in all categories for all models.

If you want a fish, get a fish. Want a fowl, get a fowl. Some of us want the camera that's a bit of both - it doesn't need to beat the extremes of either camp.
 
The D3000 is not only the lowest in the APS-C food chain, it sports the worst sensor Nikon have used (I have it in the D80), about 4 yo now. Of course one expects the latest m43 to perform better than that. The D3000 doesn't do video, as you've written.
My question is, why would one 'expect' an M43 to perform better than any DSLR, even a lower end model? I think that it competes at all (and with other models as the review stated) is impressive and warrants consideration in price vs. size and other attributes.
APS-C, the larger sensor will always, at the same technological level, have some advantages.
And yet the D3000 has an APS-C.
But the differences are all really small, only those that use RAW and go for optimal perfomance in DR and need high ISO should really care.
Right, and those who need the very best IQ, DR, DoF should be buying mid to high end DSLR gear and be willing to sacrifice size and cash.

AF issue is just way overblown for most people who aren't sports or action pro photographers.
 
I just think its funny that the E-PL1 scores 69% when it is obviously equal to or approaching DSLR IQ but a camera like the Canon S90 scores over 70% and (if the new scoring system had been in place) the G11 would have scored over 70% as well. The E-PL1 has far superior IQ than those two cameras, is of similar size to the G11 and is much more versatile than either of them. Here in Canada the E-PL1 and the G11 are about the same price.

I am guessing that the small size of the S90 must make the scoring balance tip so heavily in its favor. :-)

--
Sam

'Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it... albeit probably in colour the second time around.'
 
I'm guessing that this thread like so many competitive gearhead jousts on DPR was posted in a cubicle somewhere on Planet Office during a desperate 2-minute break from work. What's the point? Some cameras are better for some things than others? Duh.
 
That's one thing I really like about M43 - it's a format for enthusiasts of one stripe or another (existing DSLR users, compact enthusiasts looking to move beyond that format, etc.).
I'd love to see a GF2 with an articulating LCD and the GH1's sensor. Then I think I might be able to put aside thoughts of the other benefits of the NEX and "be true to myself" so to speak. I'd forego IS on the 20.
One thing I'll agree with the DSLR/APS-C camp is that the M43 sensor may not have a really long life, at least compared to APS-C. I think eventually all mirrorless semi-compacts will have bigger sensors, whether it's APS or something else.
It will be interesting to see if there's anything to those rumors about Nikon doing a 17mm diagonal sensor based EVIL kit. I think Oly & Panasonic need to get their act together on sensor technology ... the GH1 sensor is nice enough to squash concerns over which is marginally better, but the sensor used through the rest of the line has a big enough gap between it and state-of-the-art APS-C (like the NEX 5) that m43 is relying on other strengths that are likely to dwindle with time (like lens lineup, body variations). In other words, they ought to minimize concern over the small difference in sensor size by making sure the sensor technology keeps up with the competition (as it does in the case of the GH1).
Better is better, but good enough is good enough.
Heh, that's rather poetic.
:)

Happy shooting,
  • Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
Let me try putting it another way. Does the m4/3 camera provide good enough image quality, yes it does so lets put that in the bank. No arguments its as good as you should expect for the price. and it has the best JPEG engine you will find. (sadly I seldom use JPEG but for many that is a great feature and its a plus point)

Now lets focus on the cameras ability to grab an image or be used and its price point. For me if it has the zoom I may as well have an SLR. Reason size. It is smaller, but is it small enough? Not to me, hence my comment that I may as well get a G1 as EPL1. The G1 is lower price and better functionality and better handling/performing. But it fails the pocket test.

OK stick the 17mm or 20mm lenses on. EPL1 Body £460 in UK plus £290 for the lens. £750 That requires a bit of thought. And the EVF to add. Might as well get the EP-2 with lens and EVF for £850. I can get a lot of entry SLR for that. And the m4/3 should cost less no mirror lower cost sensor etc etc.

But the EVF blew the packaging again. Conclusion get a G1 with kit zoom and 20mm lens and live with the fact its not a pocket camera. Hang on my DSLR does that..............

I think there is a great m4/3 camera its just not being made. So cut the screen down in size, and let it tilt like G11, honest it does not need to be that big. Build the EVF into the Body and bundle with prime pancake lens 3 to pick from. 12mm f2.8. re-designed 17mm (it has to be faster or Panasonic lens) and 40mm. LCD on the top showing hyper focusing distance for manual and preset focusing. that way you can bypass the slow AF.

The rangfinder is fast because you can prefocus and "modern film" (phrase used with care) is very exposure error tolerant so I get along fine guessing exposure. wind it on and pre-focus like street photographers have always done in the past and its ready to go. One glance is all it takes to check its ready to go.

The compact looses IQ but is fast and is good enough for 10x8. and yes high ISO is poor, but you can run the lenses much more wide open and get decent DoF.

I have high hopes that a GF2 will solve this, but perhaps not. and its not to say that m4/3 is crap, it is more to say that it frustrates me as I can see greater potential than Olypmus and Panasonic are delivering.

I have no doubts it is an SLR equivalent imaging quality device.

Or do as Nikon are rumoured to be doing, make the sensor even smaller so you can make the zoom lenses more compact. After all 10x8 prints are fine from a portable camera. 6mp is enough for that. Perhaps that is the solution.
 

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