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F717: Sony needs a spankin'

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Ulysses

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Areas where Sony did NOT follow through and SHOULD have:

"Minolta's DiMAGE 7Hi and Nikon's Coolpix 5700 do have a more comprehensive and flexible feature set than the F717"

"The F717's biggest limitation must be storage."

"While the manual white balance is excellent the pre-programmed presets are less sucessful and auto white balance can't really cope in anything other than natural light. Sony still has some way to go in this respect."

"Lens sharpness at this very short subject distance (macro 2cm) means that a large portion of the border of the image is very soft"

"It would have been nice to have seen Sony use this product 'refresh' to catch up on a few features such as colour saturation and tone control, user memories, RAW and additional 'added value' features such as timelapse."

As well as Phil's list of "What's Missing" on the introductory page of the review, which includes lack of sat controls, and generally not keeping up with some of the higher end features in the Nikon, Minolta and Canon cameras.

Can't have everything, I guess. Still there is no absolutely dominating camera. It all depends upon what you want.

--

Ulysses
 
Ulysses said:
"It would have been nice to have seen Sony use this product
'refresh' to catch up on a few features such as colour saturation
and tone control, user memories, RAW and additional 'added value'
features such as timelapse."
Click to expand...
I agree with Phil on all these points, but ESPECIALLY the RAW mode part. Take it from me, it's a nice feature. RAW photos do take up more space than a JPG (maybe 3 or 4 mb with the 717), but much less than a TIF. All the other points like white balance, saturation, tone, etc., become mute, because you can start from scratch and adjust everything the way you like it.

--
Scott

My 'Favorites' Gallery:

http://www.pbase.com/sdommin/favorites
 
Indeed. The RAW issue is a major gaffe on Sony's part.

The users have been begging for it for years even before it became a WIDELY used feature in the competitiion's cameras.

Another unfortunate aspect of this, too, is that Sony users get more experienced with their imaging and editing with the high-end Cyber-shots, and then they move on and out of the forum, taking much of their experience with them.

I guess that's not unique to the STF, but it seems that this forum has generated more DSLR users than just about anyone else. :-)

Weird.
SDommin said:
I agree with Phil on all these points, but ESPECIALLY the RAW mode
part. Take it from me, it's a nice feature. RAW photos do take up
more space than a JPG (maybe 3 or 4 mb with the 717), but much less
than a TIF. All the other points like white balance, saturation,
tone, etc., become mute, because you can start from scratch and
adjust everything the way you like it.
Click to expand...
--

Ulysses
 
Ahh Yes Uly,

They probably should be spanked but at the same time they came in $300 less than the the D7Hi and $200 less than the Nikon. I call that value or biggest bang for the buck being the financial conservative (cheapskate) that I am.
John
Ulysses said:
The users have been begging for it for years even before it became
a WIDELY used feature in the competitiion's cameras.

Another unfortunate aspect of this, too, is that Sony users get
more experienced with their imaging and editing with the high-end
Cyber-shots, and then they move on and out of the forum, taking
much of their experience with them.

I guess that's not unique to the STF, but it seems that this forum
has generated more DSLR users than just about anyone else. :-)

Weird.
SDommin said:
I agree with Phil on all these points, but ESPECIALLY the RAW mode
part. Take it from me, it's a nice feature. RAW photos do take up
more space than a JPG (maybe 3 or 4 mb with the 717), but much less
than a TIF. All the other points like white balance, saturation,
tone, etc., become mute, because you can start from scratch and
adjust everything the way you like it.
Click to expand...
--

Ulysses
Click to expand...
 
Fortunately, we can both like 'em, as well as spank 'em. :-)

If they don't get yelled at, you'll get more of the same next year or the year after, and STILL won't have sat controls or RAW. That should not happen, trust me. Or a lot of folks will make an exodus.
johnd1 said:
Ahh Yes Uly,
They probably should be spanked but at the same time they came in
$300 less than the the D7Hi and $200 less than the Nikon. I call
that value or biggest bang for the buck being the financial
conservative (cheapskate) that I am.
Click to expand...
--

Ulysses
 
I may be a tad paranoid but I think that SONY may be holding back some improvements so that I can come out with "new" features on the 727 (which I, of course, will order as soon as it's announced).

Harry
 
SDommin said:
I agree with Phil on all these points, but ESPECIALLY the RAW mode
part. Take it from me, it's a nice feature. RAW photos do take up
more space than a JPG (maybe 3 or 4 mb with the 717), but much less
than a TIF. All the other points like white balance, saturation,
tone, etc., become mute, because you can start from scratch and
adjust everything the way you like it.
Click to expand...
...that Sony has yet to release a RAW-capable camera due to slow Memory Stick performance? The average CF card is 3x-4x faster at writing than any MS. Also, 95% of the F7x7 demographic (average consumers) would never use it and probably doesn't have Photoshop or another high-end package to support it. The speeds of both media and CPU that RAW requires may not be practical in the 7x7. Also, while sure to be remedied quickly, 128M sticks would put a damper on RAW users right fast (considering 6-8MB per RAW).

I think Sony will need to hear more than a few elite, "fringe" users clamour for features like RAW in their cameras before they harken.

Just my $.02

BTW, I still think the DSC-D770 was the best camera Sony ever produced. If they'd come out with a 5MP version, I may never have switched to dSLR. I still have it and use it on occasion. They could pound Nikon, Olympus, and Minolta into dust if they came out with something like that.

Brendan
--

D100, MB-D100, 70-200 f/2.8 EX APO IF HSM, 105 f/2.8 EX Macro, AF-S 24-85G, 80-400 'VR', 50mm 1.8D, SB-80DX, Lowepro
 
Ulysses said:
I guess that's not unique to the STF, but it seems that this forum
has generated more DSLR users than just about anyone else. :-)

Weird.
Click to expand...
It's not weird - a digital SLR will be my next big investment (probably when there's a 6 MP Foveon next year), because there's nowhere else to go once you own an F7x7. This line in Phil's Conclusion explains it:

"Even a year on from my DSC-F707 review
I find myself unable to name a new five
megapixel prosumer digital camera which
takes better pictures than the DSC-F717,
and that is saying a lot."

The weird part is that STF is simultaneously producing a lot of U10 users. My Dad is going to give me one for my birthday this month, hope it fits on my keychain.

-jeremy

--
Jeremy Birn
http://www.3dRender.com/
 
What I heard from the insider is probably a rumour, but I was told it will be f909, with 11 MP, still Carlzeiss, but smaller diameter, with 10x optical zoom + image stabilizer. They are now still strugling with their newly invented sensor (2 yrs development) which will be installed in the successor of s85 (10x zoom).

Ain't it too good to be true? Please confirm if this is just one of those ruomours.

regards, Aal
Harry Behret said:
I may be a tad paranoid but I think that SONY may be holding back
some improvements so that I can come out with "new" features on the
727 (which I, of course, will order as soon as it's announced).

Harry
Click to expand...
 
"Even a year on from my DSC-F707 review I find myself unable to name a new five megapixel prosumer digital camera which takes better pictures than the DSC-F717, and that is saying a lot."

It gives me chills to read that. Especially from Phil, who tries so hard not to play favorites.

--
Ulysses said:
Areas where Sony did NOT follow through and SHOULD have:

"Minolta's DiMAGE 7Hi and Nikon's Coolpix 5700 do have a more
comprehensive and flexible feature set than the F717"

"The F717's biggest limitation must be storage."

"While the manual white balance is excellent the pre-programmed
presets are less sucessful and auto white balance can't really cope
in anything other than natural light. Sony still has some way to go
in this respect."

"Lens sharpness at this very short subject distance (macro 2cm)
means that a large portion of the border of the image is very soft"

"It would have been nice to have seen Sony use this product
'refresh' to catch up on a few features such as colour saturation
and tone control, user memories, RAW and additional 'added value'
features such as timelapse."

As well as Phil's list of "What's Missing" on the introductory page
of the review, which includes lack of sat controls, and generally
not keeping up with some of the higher end features in the Nikon,
Minolta and Canon cameras.

Can't have everything, I guess. Still there is no absolutely
dominating camera. It all depends upon what you want.

--

Ulysses
Click to expand...
--
W.C. VandenBerg
 
Member said:
"Minolta's DiMAGE 7Hi and Nikon's Coolpix 5700 do have a more
comprehensive and flexible feature set than the F717"
Click to expand...
Yes and no, in that the 717 has night/IR features. I'd say it's a wash. I'd trade IR -- which really offers a whole arena for experimentation -- for a few features that you're probably never going to use (more on this later).
Member said:
"The F717's biggest limitation must be storage."
Click to expand...
Hard to complain at this point. Many thought MS was the best idea since sliced white bread and missed the problems of a proprietary memory format at a time when everyone else was moving to open standards. Sony is addressing this but it will take a while. The mistake was made years ago and it will take time to fix the problem since they can't just strand all the existing products or enlist all the support they'll need overnight. Giving the specs away has helped tremendously, as seen by the fact that memory for CF and MS is now comparably priced so long as you don't buy Sony.
Member said:
"While the manual white balance is excellent the pre-programmed
presets are less sucessful and auto white balance can't really cope
in anything other than natural light. Sony still has some way to go
in this respect."
Click to expand...
You can't go up every learning curve at once, and WB in conditions other than natural light is proving difficult for a lot of folks. Canon seems to do OK (not great). Other than that I either know they're not (Oly) or don't know (Nikon).
Member said:
"Lens sharpness at this very short subject distance (macro 2cm)
means that a large portion of the border of the image is very soft"
Click to expand...
Optics.
Member said:
"It would have been nice to have seen Sony use this product
'refresh' to catch up on a few features such as colour saturation
and tone control, user memories, RAW and additional 'added value'
features such as timelapse."
Click to expand...
Yes, but the strides in image processing in general are to me quite amazing. From what I'm seeing, Sony went from the bottom to the top of the list, so much movement that the lack of a few controls doesn't seem that important to me given how neutral the images are. This seems very different from the case on the 707 where the images were so processed that you needed the ability to turn it down a notch. Here I don't see that need.

So on balance the only issue Sony could have addressed is the WB, and it looks like they tried, which is all you can really ask sometimes. Do don't spank em', give them some kudos!
 
Group Idiot said:
I think Sony will need to hear more than a few elite, "fringe"
users clamour for features like RAW in their cameras before they harken.
Click to expand...
I would tend to agree. Critical mass. That's what Sony listens to. The niche of experienced users may help advance some features, but they won't put it in until the majority wants it.
Group Idiot said:
BTW, I still think the DSC-D770 was the best camera Sony ever
produced.
Click to expand...
Lots of folks would agree.

--

Ulysses
 
Like Phil, I'll continue to give them plenty of "Kudos". He even uses the word in his review. And everyone knows where I enjoy the Sony cameras.

OTOH, Sony definitely deserves the spankin' that both Phil as well as any reasonable user would give them for not jumping on a few more of these features. A year is a long, long time. The refresh gets it done, and I'd even go as far as saying that it may be worth the upgrade for lots of F707 users.

However, they could have done more.

Having said that, they have eliminated most of the major concerns in the F707 as regards image quality, color, and consistency.

The F717 is much more predictable a camera.
Donald Cooper said:
So on balance the only issue Sony could have addressed is the WB,
and it looks like they tried, which is all you can really ask
sometimes. Do don't spank em', give them some kudos!
Click to expand...
--

Ulysses
 
OK, OK, the 717V will be out in January! Everybody happy now? (However, adding the kitchen sink does make it a little bulkier to handle.)

Rodger
 
I just don't see people leaving just for those or a few other little things. I see people jumping if someone does better in sharpness with low noise and good color. Even its low light tricks would get pushed aside for that. But, Sony isn't one to sit on its hands. Who knows what they are working on.

Hal
Member said:
If they don't get yelled at, you'll get more of the same next year
or the year after, and STILL won't have sat controls or RAW. That
should not happen, trust me. Or a lot of folks will make an exodus.
Click to expand...
 
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