DSLR choice..too difficult...wait/buy...wait/buy...wait/buy..

effector · Oct 6, 2002

Peter Phan said:
The lens system should be the primary consideration because it is
the most enduring factor. DSLR's are still changing rapidly, but
you will always have your lenses. It doesn't matter how many DSLR
choices there are, if you don't have the lens system that offers
the selection and quality you want it is pointless. But if you are
interested in getting a "good 28-200", then it is obvious that your
expectations of quality for your lenses is rather low. There are
no good 28-200 lenses. They are all mediocre, at best.

------------------------------

Yes you are right i'm not an expert, i'm not a freelance ore other professional of photography.

So i prefer a glass with an wide focal lenght excursion (forgive me if this isn't correct word).

As i write i like take the moment. I don't like to take with me an heavy bag with many glass..
just opinion i know that for a professional this is orrible

.

I want to learn more about photography, so i want a DSLR, i want to use it totally, but i can't start in 4th gear, i prefer to start with a wide range of possibility
--------------------------------------------------

Peter Phan said:
For me, the Canon lens system is a primary consideration. It is
without a doubt the best lens system available in terms of quality,
selection, technology, and (compared to most Nikon offerings)
price.

I don't know, i suppose that if another nikon user come here will tell me exactly the opposite.

I'm not a fan of any brand i suppose that nikon and canon make well..even...the same work.
Anyway i'm a newbie..sure.
-----------------------------------------------------

Peter Phan said:
So it really doesn't matter that there are two camera
bodies available in the same price range with the Nikon mount.
(The Kodak is in an entirely different price range). You only need
to pick one body, and you will use if for a few years. But with
the lenses you will want a broad selection, with fast and quiet
autofocus, with the best optics, with Image Stabilizer, etc.

Choose between the Fuji S2, Nikon D100, or D60. Each has it's pros
and cons. However, the most important factor is still the lens
system you are going to be stuck using for a very long time. So
pick the one that you are going to like the best.

---------------------------------------------------

So what is yours suggestion? D60?

leave out for now the lens standard...this camera in my anlysys has no advantage to others competitors...i think.
It's always my 3rd choice for pro and cons...leave out the lens system....

-----------------------------------------------

ciao

Luca

Peter Phan said:
effector said:

Yes but now and in future i see more choice of D SLR in same range
of price (2000/2500€) for nikon standard....but future may be
different of course . I suppose that i will start with a good
28-200 and a good 15-30..for me this is expensive...i can't enter
now in a system and leave it for another in future...so i must
choose now nikon or canon...and i'm incline to nikon...

Of course i'm also confused...very confused

ciao

Luca

Click to expand...

effector · Oct 6, 2002

Another thing.

Can you tell me, wich are the "real" difference in quality, photo detail, exposure metering...etc...between a 28-70 and a 28-200 (such as little focal lenght excursion and..another wide).
Leave out for now fixed focal lenght...sure...it's other level of quality.
I'm talking about handy use, not with a 400% zoom on monitor...

I'm sorry for my banal question

ciao

Luca

Peter Phan wrote:
But if you are

Peter Phan said:
interested in getting a "good 28-200", then it is obvious that your
expectations of quality for your lenses is rather low. There are
no good 28-200 lenses. They are all mediocre, at best.

--
Please forgive my english....
....but Italian do it better

effector · Oct 6, 2002

I'm sorry, in first comparison i forget future kodak DCS 14n..i'm writing about this camera but if i don't post..my analysis....

Form me it's a very good camera but i think it's only a s2pro with a fantastic full frame CMOS sensor (yes it's too simple)

...beacuse:

PRO

effector said:
High resolution: 14mp
High detail
Full Frame sensor
No Focal multiplier
Body design, and aesthetic (for me of course)
3d matrix exposure metering
big buffer size

ONLY Firewire connection (may be useful, but actually i don't have a firewire port)

Nikon F mount (many digicam actual and future use this...i will have more choice)
5 area AF (i think it's enough for me)
Batteries and charger included in box (i suppose)

CONS

effector said:
Very big body size
2 FPS in continuos shooting
0.5 EV steps
Viewfinder coverage 95% (for this price i want more)
Weight 907 gr.
External flash contact X only, that not support cheap flash
Very HIGH price about 4000$
ONE battery

Scott Fleming · Oct 6, 2002

I read the whole thing because it describes the situation of a lot of us. I'm waiting. I'm convinced there is a 6mp foveon out there no more than six months away. Perhaps in a 4/3 format. I think digital does to 35 mil what 35 mil did to the old larger format film cameras decades ago. Why have a big fat lense when imaging tech makes them unnecessary.

I have two canon lenses for my EOS A2E. They are prime lenses and not a huge investment. I'm real ticked a Canon right now and ready to jump ship ... to hell with the glass. But there's just too much stuff on the horizon. It's NOT like computers and digicams in the past few years. Things are really exploding right now and it's just not time to buy.

This is dificult because I'm really sick of messing with film. I live WAY out in the country and taking my film all the way into a decent lab is becoming more and more of a pain. But I'm still gonna wait. I can make do with film for a little while longer.

Capital Man · Oct 6, 2002

Robert Niel said:
What exactly does obsolete mean in that context? The camera will
continue to take the same quantified 'quality' photos as when they
bought them (subject to wear and tear). The rest of your statement
is pretty much conjecture, unless you've seen and handled the
'Olydak'. No doubt it'll have it's quirks just like any current
camera.

Quality is relative rather than absolute.

The OlyDak will blow away what's available now... it's plain old common sense. The D60 has a small sensor behind a lens designed for a much bigger sense. That makes no sense at all.

rick decker · Oct 6, 2002

If I were Foveon, I would be looking at where my "volume" sales are coming from - and FAST!! They will not make money with Sigma and this is not meant to be a put-down. They would most likely be contacting the Digital MFR's with the most sales - especially in the point and shoot variety.

If I were them and had the time, in addition, I would put my money on a smaller sensor with smaller lenses. It seems their chip can supply the resolution and from what I have read, a smaller lens can be designed to better resolution than a 35mm. Bottom line is lighter systems that will produce just or almost just as good results. I think that 35mm is close to the end of its life cycle as a product. Not that it will disappear as there is too much of it around but very soon most new sales in SLR arena will be in a new format. Digital sales are expected to hit over 50% of new camera sales in the next year or two, and when the new format hits, there will be a big migration to it. Can you imagine a light-weight, fast 100-300 equivalent zoom or 300-800 equivalent zoom? And for less cost! Wow! Am I a visionay or what! Someone should hire me! Or am I full of CACA?

Scott Fleming said:
I read the whole thing because it describes the situation of a lot
of us. I'm waiting. I'm convinced there is a 6mp foveon out there
no more than six months away. Perhaps in a 4/3 format. I think
digital does to 35 mil what 35 mil did to the old larger format
film cameras decades ago. Why have a big fat lense when imaging
tech makes them unnecessary.

I have two canon lenses for my EOS A2E. They are prime lenses and
not a huge investment. I'm real ticked a Canon right now and ready
to jump ship ... to hell with the glass. But there's just too much
stuff on the horizon. It's NOT like computers and digicams in the
past few years. Things are really exploding right now and it's just
not time to buy.

This is dificult because I'm really sick of messing with film. I
live WAY out in the country and taking my film all the way into a
decent lab is becoming more and more of a pain. But I'm still gonna
wait. I can make do with film for a little while longer.

Jimmy Chen · Oct 6, 2002

rick decker said:
If I were Foveon, I would be looking at where my "volume" sales are
coming from - and FAST!! They will not make money with Sigma and
this is not meant to be a put-down. They would most likely be
contacting the Digital MFR's with the most sales - especially in
the point and shoot variety.

But if you were Foveon, under to date's condition, you only have one volume sale out standing and that is Sigma.

Nikon has not announced anything, so at best Nikon is checking out the prototype chips. Canon is already on their own fast train with their own CMOS chips. Sony is the P&S/prosumer sensor market leader ...

Foveon is not and will not be making any money with anyone else for the next 6 or so months. Sigma is their sole volume sale customer to date.

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery

Robert P Miller · Oct 6, 2002

I've ordered a Kodak 14n. The limitations of my E-20 and 707 are driving my mad. I work around them most of the time, but technology marches on.

I really need two cameras. One with fast accurate AF like the 1D and the other with the megapixels for landscapes and real detail. I figure the Kodak will give me the detail and thier past digital SLRs are a decent legacy to build on. Besides, the Nikon mount is a plus. At least the lenses are used on MANY cameras and can be resold with ease (Sigma!?).

I cannot justify the Canon price at this point. Perhaps in a few years when the price of a 1D is below a grand............and Foveonish inspired sensors rule the landscape.
Best,
Robert

rick decker · Oct 6, 2002

OK Jimmy: Let's start a little pool...who will Foveon's next vendor be? And what will the product be? D-SLR; New 4/3; P&S. I vote for Niikon! Second choice, Fuji!

What say?

Jimmy Chen said:
Jimmy Chen said:

If I were Foveon, I would be looking at where my "volume" sales are
coming from - and FAST!! They will not make money with Sigma and
this is not meant to be a put-down. They would most likely be
contacting the Digital MFR's with the most sales - especially in
the point and shoot variety.

Click to expand...

But if you were Foveon, under to date's condition, you only have
one volume sale out standing and that is Sigma.

Nikon has not announced anything, so at best Nikon is checking out
the prototype chips. Canon is already on their own fast train with
their own CMOS chips. Sony is the P&S/prosumer sensor market leader
...

Foveon is not and will not be making any money with anyone else for
the next 6 or so months. Sigma is their sole volume sale customer
to date.

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery

effector · Oct 7, 2002

I'm sceptic...i don't know...make a new standard is difficult..very difficult.
it needs time....
And when it start the lens choice will be very limited...
ok i want a crystal sphere

ciao

Luca

rick decker said:
Scott Fleming said:

I read the whole thing because it describes the situation of a lot
of us. I'm waiting. I'm convinced there is a 6mp foveon out there
no more than six months away. Perhaps in a 4/3 format. I think
digital does to 35 mil what 35 mil did to the old larger format
film cameras decades ago. Why have a big fat lense when imaging
tech makes them unnecessary.

I have two canon lenses for my EOS A2E. They are prime lenses and
not a huge investment. I'm real ticked a Canon right now and ready
to jump ship ... to hell with the glass. But there's just too much
stuff on the horizon. It's NOT like computers and digicams in the
past few years. Things are really exploding right now and it's just
not time to buy.

This is dificult because I'm really sick of messing with film. I
live WAY out in the country and taking my film all the way into a
decent lab is becoming more and more of a pain. But I'm still gonna
wait. I can make do with film for a little while longer.

Click to expand...

--

--
Please forgive my english....
....but Italian do it better

effector · Oct 7, 2002

I want a nikon's 6mp foveon !!!

and it will cost less than 3000$

too much?

ciao

Luca

rick decker said:
What say?

Jimmy Chen said:

rick decker said:

If I were Foveon, I would be looking at where my "volume" sales are
coming from - and FAST!! They will not make money with Sigma and
this is not meant to be a put-down. They would most likely be
contacting the Digital MFR's with the most sales - especially in
the point and shoot variety.

Click to expand...

But if you were Foveon, under to date's condition, you only have
one volume sale out standing and that is Sigma.

Nikon has not announced anything, so at best Nikon is checking out
the prototype chips. Canon is already on their own fast train with
their own CMOS chips. Sony is the P&S/prosumer sensor market leader
...

Foveon is not and will not be making any money with anyone else for
the next 6 or so months. Sigma is their sole volume sale customer
to date.

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery

Click to expand...

--

--
Please forgive my english....
....but Italian do it better

ajs2107922 · Oct 7, 2002

Some of you points are not 100% worked thu:

effector said:
effector said:

effector said:

effector said:

Fuji S2pro

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

PRO

effector said:

External flash contact X HOT SHOE, that support cheap flash

Click to expand...

Thats Full TTL and PC connector

effector said:
effector said:

Cheap rechargeable batteries NI-Mh

Firewire and USB connection (may be useful, but actually i don't have a firewire port)

Click to expand...

Firewire is much faster and a card can be purchased.

effector said:
effector said:

Fast operation
Five area AF
3d matrix exposure metering
Grid lines in viewfinder

Click to expand...

CONS

effector said:

Body design, not function and ed ergonomic but big size and aesthetic (for me of course)

Two separate sets of batteries, one is NOT rechargeable. If you want you don't use internal flash and use only one set of batteries Ni-mh

Click to expand...

The CR123 are not needed, unless you require inbuilt flash

effector said:
effector said:

Short life Batteries (in conparison to NIKON and CANON)

Click to expand...

Not much in it really

effector said:
effector said:

Batteries and charger NOT included in box. (increase price)

Click to expand...

Uk park includes batts & travel charger. Think the US one dex too? Anyway mine came with a 8x AA Rechargables and 4xCR123's

effector said:
effector said:

It's not sure that all CF work correctly

Click to expand...

Same as ALL DSLR's

effector said:
effector said:

focal multiplier 1.5x
Viewfinder coverage 92%
0.5 EV steps (NIKON 0.3)
2 FPS in continuos shooting (3 FPS NIKON)

Click to expand...

7 Frame buffer , So not really an issue

effector said:
effector said:

Weight 760gr, big body size
HIGH price (2239 € + iva) body only

Click to expand...

FUTILITY

effector said:

CONS- LCD cover not trasparent useless
CONS- Orange Display , I don't like it

Click to expand...

What???

effector said:
effector said:

effector said:

effector said:

NIKON D100

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

PRO

effector said:

Body design, function, ergonomic, body size and aesthetic (for me of course)

NIKON F mount (many digicam actual and future use this...i will have more choice)
3 FPS in continuos shooting
0.3 EV steps
3d matrix exposure metering
Five area AF
Viewfinder coverage 95%
ONE battery

Click to expand...

$50 each thu

effector said:
effector said:

Batteries and charger included in box
Very long life battery

Click to expand...

Really???

effector said:
effector said:

Fast operation

Click to expand...

How big is the frame buffer????

effector said:
effector said:

Grid lines in viewfinder
Weight 700gr and right body size
Low price (2056€ +iva) body only

Click to expand...

CONS

effector said:

6mp, low detail, soft look images! at 100%
External flash contact X only, that not support cheap flash

Click to expand...

Only D-TTL can't do full TTL

effector said:
effector said:

focal multiplier 1.5x
High price battery

Click to expand...

FUTILITY

effector said:

PRO- LCD traspearent cover, useful
PRO-Frames remaining counter active also when digicam is off

Click to expand...

I would say you need to compare the two camera on price and how much Fash you use. The D100 lack of full TTL verse the extra cost and Nice pic's of the S2pro. I would say are the real issues, I've not used the Canon so i've no ideal reguarding them, aready have Nikon lens.

One point I always make on this one. Camera come and go, but lens tend to stay in your bag. I've most cost in lens then camera so choose the mount that you thing offers the best long term gains. I think Nikon have the edge here simply because Fuji and Kodak also use the mount!

Alex

Amac · Oct 7, 2002

PRO-

Must be able to give critically sharp 13 by 19 prints of highly detailed landscape/ cityscapes.

If it can't do that, then I won't buy it. End of story.

I'm lucky that I don't have a big lens investment to consider as well. Thus, I'll happily buy a Canon, Nikon, Fuji or Kodak so long as I can get the prints I want from it.

My point is, you've got to work out what you want it for photographically. Then you either buy what's available, or you wait until it is.

My .02c
--
Regards

Andrew McGregor

Website

http://www.geocities.com/andrewmcgregorphotography

Photo critique site

http://www.photosig.com

effector · Oct 7, 2002

ajs2 said:
effector said:

ajs2107922 said:

ajs2107922 said:

ajs2107922 said:

Fuji S2pro

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

ajs2107922 said:
ajs2107922 said:

ajs2107922 said:

Firewire and USB connection (may be useful, but actually i don't have a firewire port)

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Firewire is much faster and a card can be purchased.

No doubt...but i repeat..actually i have not a firewire card...

ajs2107922 said:
ajs2107922 said:

ajs2107922 said:

Two separate sets of batteries, one is NOT rechargeable. If you want you don't use internal flash and use only one set of batteries Ni-mh

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

The CR123 are not needed, unless you require inbuilt flash

And what i say???

ajs2107922 said:
ajs2107922 said:

ajs2107922 said:

Batteries and charger NOT included in box. (increase price)

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Uk park includes batts & travel charger. Think the US one dex too?
Anyway mine came with a 8x AA Rechargables and 4xCR123's

Im Italian box...no..

ajs2107922 said:
ajs2107922 said:

ajs2107922 said:

It's not sure that all CF work correctly

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Same as ALL DSLR's

Not so true..seems that fuji has more problem

ajs2107922 said:
ajs2107922 said:

ajs2107922 said:

2 FPS in continuos shooting (3 FPS NIKON)

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

7 Frame buffer , So not really an issue

7 frame/seconds.. exactly like nikon...but nikon make 3FPS..so this is an issue

ajs2107922 said:
ajs2107922 said:

FUTILITY

ajs2107922 said:

CONS- LCD cover not trasparent useless
CONS- Orange Display , I don't like it

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

What???

Just futility

ajs2107922 said:
ajs2107922 said:

ajs2107922 said:

ajs2107922 said:

ajs2107922 said:

NIKON D100

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

ajs2107922 said:
ajs2107922 said:

ajs2107922 said:

Very long life battery

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Really???

Nikon has a 1600 mma battery ..longer than others

ajs2107922 said:
I would say you need to compare the two camera on price and how
much Fash you use. The D100 lack of full TTL verse the extra cost
and Nice pic's of the S2pro. I would say are the real issues, I've
not used the Canon so i've no ideal reguarding them, aready have
Nikon lens.

One point I always make on this one. Camera come and go, but lens
tend to stay in your bag. I've most cost in lens then camera so
choose the mount that you thing offers the best long term gains. I
think Nikon have the edge here simply because Fuji and Kodak also
use the mount!

Alex

Me too..actually i think that choose nikon standard will create more possibility

--
Please forgive my english....
....but Italian do it better

effector · Oct 7, 2002

effector said:
effector said:

effector said:

effector said:

effector said:

effector said:

NIKON D100

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

effector said:

effector said:

effector said:

Very long life battery

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Really???

Click to expand...

Nikon has a 1600 mma battery ..longer than others

Sorry...1400 mAh

--
Please forgive my english....
....but Italian do it better

Tom O'Neil · Oct 7, 2002

Capital Man said:
Robert Niel said:

What exactly does obsolete mean in that context? The camera will
continue to take the same quantified 'quality' photos as when they
bought them (subject to wear and tear). The rest of your statement
is pretty much conjecture, unless you've seen and handled the
'Olydak'. No doubt it'll have it's quirks just like any current
camera.

Click to expand...

Quality is relative rather than absolute.

The OlyDak will blow away what's available now... it's plain old
common sense. The D60 has a small sensor behind a lens designed
for a much bigger sense. That makes no sense at all.

I hope that is correct, but what seems to make sense doesn't always succeed. I hope it does and doesn't just become some weird and neglected niche like what happened to APS film.

Forrest41926 · Oct 7, 2002

Capital Man said:
The OlyDak will blow away the current crop of digicams because the
lenses will be specifically designed for the sensor size. The
lenses designed for the smaller sensor will resolve many more line
pairs/mm, resulting in much sharper images.

This from the guy who says digital can never come near film, huh? Now low-end digital beats high-end digital? What's next? By your logic, APS beats MF.

Capital Man said:
Don't waste your money on equipment that will be obsolete in a
year. Th enew OlyDak will be based on a new STANDARD, so lenses
you buy for the new OlyDak will outlast the camera body (which will
no doubt become obsolete in two years like very other digital
camera).

So if I wear my shirt backwards, and tell everyone "Oh, come on! It's the STANDARD," then everyone else is in the wrong, huh?

Michael Fusco · Oct 7, 2002

I think it may be too late for this to become a standard if the next crop of DSLR's costing from let's say $1500-$2000 U.S. dollars at the end of 2003 U.S. which use Canon and Nikon lenses will have full frame sensors. Olympus may get the prosumer market moving up to a DSLR but I can't believe that Canon users would give up their L lenses or Nikon users would give up their pro lenses if reasonably priced cameras come out with full frame sensors.

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that the 35mm lenses are an advantage on non full-frame cameras since part of the glass used is more towards the center part of the lens and not the corners.

Capital Man said:
The OlyDak will blow away the current crop of digicams because the
lenses will be specifically designed for the sensor size. The
lenses designed for the smaller sensor will resolve many more line
pairs/mm, resulting in much sharper images.

Don't waste your money on equipment that will be obsolete in a
year. Th enew OlyDak will be based on a new STANDARD, so lenses
you buy for the new OlyDak will outlast the camera body (which will
no doubt become obsolete in two years like very other digital
camera).

Capital Man · Oct 7, 2002

Forrest said:
Forrest41926 said:

The OlyDak will blow away the current crop of digicams because the
lenses will be specifically designed for the sensor size. The
lenses designed for the smaller sensor will resolve many more line
pairs/mm, resulting in much sharper images.

Click to expand...

This from the guy who says digital can never come near film, huh?
Now low-end digital beats high-end digital? What's next? By your
logic, APS beats MF.

No, I never said that digital "can never come near film". I said that film is better than current digital cameras, and that the low end consumer isn't going to abandon film any time soon.

With APS vs 35mm vs MF, the limiting factor is the film grain. There is an article at photodo.com which shows that 35mm lenses can resolve very close to the same amount of detail that MF lenses can resolve.

A lens designed for a 4/3 format (1/2 the diagonal of 35mm film) will far outperform the lenses designed for 35mm, so the new 4/3 format will kick butt over the D60 and D100. Those two cameras will be obsolete as soon as the new 4/3 camera comes out.

The 4/3 camera will be the first camera to outperform film in a practical mannerer (I don't consider the 1Ds with the $7000 price tag very practical). It will usher in a new era of digital photography.

Forrest41926 said:
Forrest41926 said:

Don't waste your money on equipment that will be obsolete in a
year. Th enew OlyDak will be based on a new STANDARD, so lenses
you buy for the new OlyDak will outlast the camera body (which will
no doubt become obsolete in two years like very other digital
camera).

Click to expand...

So if I wear my shirt backwards, and tell everyone "Oh, come on!
It's the STANDARD," then everyone else is in the wrong, huh?

A standard is a HUGE improvement over what we have now. Canon and Nikon each have their own propietary lens format. Oly is openening the doors to free market and competition.

Capital Man · Oct 7, 2002

Michael Fusco said:
I think it may be too late for this to become a standard if the
next crop of DSLR's costing from let's say $1500-$2000 U.S. dollars
at the end of 2003 U.S. which use Canon and Nikon lenses will have
full frame sensors.

I agree that if cameras with full size 35mm sensors cost the same as the new 4/3 camera, then the 4/3 camera will be a hard sell.

I don't expect this to happen any time soon. It's very expensive to make a sensor really big. The 4/3 sensor will have a huge price advantage for quite some time.

While mass production will lower prices somewhat, please keep in mind that when we see the price of computers coming down every year, 90% of the decrease is because they make things smaller, squeezing more onto the same sized chip. Only 10% comes from less expensive production of the same size piece of silicon.

If the demand for the full size 35mm sensors remains low, there will never be much of a mass production phenomenon. Look at the cost of medium format cameras. A new Pentax 645 is $2000. Why do you think that digital cameras designed for the same market will cost less money than a film camera that is just a lightproof box based on technology from fifty years ago?

Michael Fusco said:
Olympus may get the prosumer market moving up
to a DSLR but I can't believe that Canon users would give up their
L lenses or Nikon users would give up their pro lenses if
reasonably priced cameras come out with full frame sensors.

Canon users gave up their FD lenses for the new EF lenses. Change will inevitably happen again. If it's less money to buy an OlyDak plus a new lens, than keep the L zoom and add in a 1Ds, then OlyDak it will be.

I, for one, am not going to by any expensive digital camera gear until the OlyDak comes out.

DSLR choice..too difficult...wait/buy...wait/buy...wait/buy..

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